Welcome to the Old School Renaissance General, the thread dedicated to first-decade, Gygaxian D&D, its faithful modern clones, and content created for use with them. Later editions (2e and newer) should be discussed elsewhere.Broadly, OSR games encourage a tonal and mechanical fidelity to Dungeons & Dragons played as intended by its creators from 1974 to 1983 — less emphasis on linear adventures and overarching metaplots and a greater emphasis on player agency.If you are new to the OSR, welcome! Ask us whatever you're curious about: we'll be happy to help you get started. We also have two excellent beginner guides created by Anons with feedback from the thread that you can check for help:>n00b DM's Guidehttps://pastebin.com/EVvt6P0B>n00b Player's Handbookhttps://pastebin.com/XALkXkV0>Troves, Resources, Blogs, etc:http://pastebin.com/9fzM6128>Need a starter dungeon? Here's a curated collection:https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/94994969/#95006768>Previous thread:>>98805916>Thread question:How rare are magic items in your games and how limited do you like magic to be?
>>98865622A little more common than the DMG tables result in around 3-4th level. I add random things into treasure that fit the dungeon themes if it feels a bit sparse. I was initially caught up in the mudcore low magic meme but think at this point we all have a better time if there's more cool things and players to have more items to mess with rather than less. I just have to adjust the aesthetics of the items a bit so it fits together a bit more so it doesn't feel too wacky fantasy pastiche.
>>98865622>How rare are magic items in your games and how limited do you like magic to be?Since discovering the ACKS magic item tables by rarity I am married to them. So at lower levels PCs tend to find more magic items, but of much lower quality (mostly potions and scrolls).I have revised the cursed item frequency, though. Instead of them being more common at lower levels, every item found has a flat 5% probability of being cursed.
They're not that rare because I feel that D&D as-written requires a certain level of magic items to work as intended. You can't use many monsters except as scare critters you have to flee from unless/until at least someone in the party has a magic weapon for example. Conversely if you do give out a few +1 weapons over the first couple levels you can do things like have 2-3 gargoyles watching a hoard the players can clearly see but have to avoid, then later they get their hands on magic arms and can go back and fight the gargoyles for their loot.
>>98866112>>98865717Same here. I generally prefer a lower-magic aesthetic for my games so some things may get reskinned a bit but magic items pop up as often as prescribed. I'm also a fan of silver swords for lower level parties. Right now, my players have found a pretty solid assortment of magic items including the usual smattering of +1 weapons and scrolls, plus a pair of Boots of Levitation and a Helm of Read Magic & Comprehend Languages. Both of which have proven to be very valuable.
I had a dream about Wilderlands of High Fantasy getting a WotC release for 5e. It was really freaky.
>>98866247Isn't Goodman doing one of those 5e/original combo book releases of the Wilderlands? Not the same as WotC admittedly.
>>98866247>Wilderlands of High Fantasy getting a WotC release for 5eCity of the Nonbinary Equalperson!
>>98866328it actually was packed full of ranting about /pol/shittery in my dream lol
>>98866328>>98866357lmao
Happy anniversary, /osrg/! One year with the clarified OP and what an improvement it's made. This time last year the threads were constantly flooded with retarded shitposting, the clarification honestly worked much better than I thought it would.
>>98866247I recently looked at Wilderlands of High Fantasy and I don't get why it's considered a classic. The layout was insane, it didn't have that much material, and there wasn't guidance on how to use the material. Though I guess that was found in other Judges Guild products
>>98866627The maps are great, the sparsity of the content is a plus and the lack of guidance creates the same kind of fruitful void as LBB OD&D does. You don't have to agree with this, but that's how it's usually understood by those who regard it as a classic. If you want more detail to the setting the 3e version is the one for you, it elaborates on everything.
>>98865865>ACKSOh the game where you have to kill like 50 trolls to make a +1 sword, after which you're either dead, or so high of level that you probably don't need that +1 sword anymore?
>>98865622Where is the Pre-Wotc errata of all editions of the game located online? With all the OSR i assumed these would be gathered and if they did not exist the errata would be written by fans.
>>98866707>Oh the game where you have to kill like 50 trolls to make a +1 sword, after which you're either dead, or so high of level that you probably don't need that +1 sword anymore?The hell are you smoking?Usually, in ACKS, you get at least one magic weapons by the end of your first dungeon, or you could commission one...
>>98866731Lurk more young adventurer, lurk these threads, dark and deep, and you'll find the treasure you seek!>Newfag
>>98866713>>98866733To give the retard his due I think he might be referring to the component cost (Usually the component cost for magic items must be paid with various monster parts from one or more monsters with a total XP value equal to the gp cost of the research.)In the case of the humble troll this would be like 7or 8 trolls for a +1 weapon (component cost 5000gp)
>>98866627>it didn't have that much materialOne of its main qualities. Hard to wrap your head around it if you're used to being spoon fed by modules, but using what little material it had, its amazing generators, and good DMing you got something MUCH better than, say, Disneywood.
>>98866856>In the case of the humble troll this would be like 7or 8 trolls for a +1 weapon (component cost 5000gp)Sounds reasonable.
>>98866731There's no errata for B/X, OD&D, and the three for AD&D books the real one, "AD&D" 2e is dogshit and the real error is reading it.
>>98866966>and the three for AD&D books*CORE AD&D bookst. phonefag
>>98866966>no errata for>>98866953you truly are made of vomit
>>98866357lolI think your spirit guide is reminding you not to give money to Hasbro. But it also might be telling you to read less shitposts.
>>98866856That's a generous reading of what he's doing anon, given we both know he's being a fag on purpose and the fact you have other options on filling out the component cost.Going for a higher level monster instead of harvesting bear asses for example; quenching a sword in the blood of a dragon to making a flaming sword is cool and anyone that says otherwise is bullshitting.Personally I also let players pay with other forms, divine value, research income, ect. Which can make for some fun combos. Having a cult ritual culminating in a human sacrifice to make an evil dagger becomes more than just fluff, it has mechanics to back it up
Has anyone ever had to create a new class or transformed an existing one due to ingame reasons. Say a fighter or a cleric wanted to become something more akin to a paladin. How would you personally go about this transformation?I've personally thought about:-Letting the player keep XP and then changing to a different class completely -Letting the player keep their class and level and from then on developing the new class periodically
>>98867491Yes but explaining how he's retarded highlights his retardation. I generally assign a monster type when players find or develop a formula. The +1 sword might require ten warg fangs or two mammoth tusks (to be ground into the alloy) or something like that. I might have to assign bear anuses as a potion ingredient to see if any of them drink it.I'm stealing your paying with other forms thing btw.
>>98867547It honestly depends on what they want. To go from Fighter to Paladin, they need a Quest or Divine Blessing, and they can take their EXP total and apply it to Paladin levels instead of Fighter, effectively swapping classes. Or I might have them slowly start swapping things out over the course of a few sessions, depends on what the player is asking. Regardless, it requires some sort of downtime instruction in their new abilities and responsibilities. Now, if the Fighter wants to be a Wizard? That's usually a lack of magic items at issue. I recommend they start a new Wizard character, see if they like it, and have the Fighter on standby. If these aren't working, then having them multi-class into their new class is the go-to. If it's not something I can address through these means, I'll talk to the player, figure out what they want vs what they are asking, and then create a custom class.
Question: I am making a S.T.A.L.K.E.R.-like OSR game that uses LotFP as a basis, namely it's universal d6 skill system/slot-based encumbrance. I've combined "Open Doors" and "Climbing" into one skill called "Athletics". Depending on what you're doing, you either add your STR bonus or your DEX bonus, with a base minimum of a 1-in-6 chance regardless of negative modifiers (there are external circumstances that can create a 0-in-6 chance, like the build of the door or wall. These require more help or tools.)For forcing open doors (add STR mod), crowbars or an additional person helping add +1 a piece. For climbing (add DEX mod), proper gear adds +1 or +2 depending on what you have.Is this intuitive or clunky? In LotFP, "Open Doors" is a skill that cannot be modified by the Specialist skill advancement, and I have kept Athletics the same, putting emphasis on gear or other help.
>>98868812Don't know what a stalker is so I'm not clear on what you're trying to achieve. Here's what I do know:1. Ability score modifiers for skills do NOT make the game better.2. You are super-obese and have never climbed anything taller than your bed, let alone practiced any sport at all, given you think dexterity is more important than strength for climbing.
>>98868940The real answer is that strength and dexterity are equally important in climbing. If you can't get your footing on the only hard to reach hold, it doesn't matter how strong you are, fatty.Both can be arbitrated as correct to use by the GM.
>>98868812>Is this intuitive or clunky?Intuitive enough. I don't think trying to make a very granular or realistic focused skill system works well with 1D6lotfp skills. Their main strength is the simplicity and being able to adjust a modifier without much fuss and have a result you can tie into the game world. >>98869044>Both can be arbitrated as correct to use by the GM.This. Some clear explanation for players so they understand how to use gear as descriptive aids to skills and then being able to incorporate it as the dm. Otherwise you end up with weird shit like the Veins of the Earth climbing rules.
>>98869039>Don't know what a stalker isSoviet post apocalyptic or post strange-event with reality warping effects aesthetics from this novel, film and then game. Neat read and watch, no experience with the game. Saw a resurgence in popularity over the last few years in various nerd media, the Annihilation series being a very americanized version of it, Tales from the Loop being another similar but different Scandi take on it.
>>98869144Definitely never post-apocalyptic. The Zone exists among the regular world, that's what emphasizes it's anomalous nature. The S.T.A.L.K.E.R. games just look post-apocalyptic cause it's set in the abandoned Chernobyl Exclusion Zone.
>>98869181Good point, the post apocalyptic part is more of a variation on it thematically and being Chernobyl inspired that comes up more in other games and stuff around it not the original.
>>98867586>Yes but explaining how he's retarded highlights his retardation.Speaking as an anon not previously participating in this discussion I want to secnd this. It's actually also given some neat insight into the ACKS item creation system so it's a real value add over just calling him a fag.
>>98867547At the risk of sounding like the Just Read AD&D guy I think I'd probably use the dual-classing rules from AD&D. Okay, you're a Fighter, you meet the minimum recs for Paladin, go ahead and switch, start from level 1.
>>98870224>At the risk of sounding like the Just Read AD&D guyHe's based and correct though!
>>98869629No I mean the other one, they'll probably figure it out. You're very sensitive huh.
>>98870224Been playing AD&D for forty years. Thought the same, meant to post it, but then I must have got distracted
>Have two nephews that are around 7 and 9yo>Have always thought about how I want to share my gaming hobby with them>Worried that they won't have the attention span or interest in it>Worried that their psycho bible-thumper parents will keep them from playing or enjoying it>Feel like that meme that people post of the dad forcing his kids to be like himselfI'm definitely overthinking this, but at the same time, it's something that's been on my mind for a long time. I'm gonna wait a couple more years before I give it a shot with 'em... But I hope it goes well when I do.
>>98870886Stop wasting time, they could have started at the ripe age of 6 already. Kids are pure concentrate of undistilled imagination. They love that shit and they're naturals. Just tone down your game lethality as they can really become best friend with an imaginary pet or ally.There's nothing to wait for except wasted time and memories. Tell the parents you'll take the kids away from them an afternoon a week every week to play a tabletop game of fairies and dragons instead of TV and tablets and they'll start planning some me/us-time as soon as you tell them that. Parents are overloaded, tired and ripped off of their former life. There's nothing that they crave more than a sucker to give that back to them a few hours a week guaranteed. Ask me how I know! Love my sons, play D&D with them every holiday but boy would it be nice if their grand-parents stepped up once in a blue moon instead of living their boomer dream so I can nap carefree or fuck their mom wild and loud like I'm a teenager again.
>>98870886>>98871657 (me)Also adding to this, as an 8yo both my uncles were the coolest persons in the world showing me teenager stuffs like Akira, Gunnm, Hitman, Rogue Spear. An uncle is nothing like your boring dad with his lame joke. He's a gateway to a more mature world and takes you seriously, entrusting you with cool shit.
>>98870886If you're on good terms with their parents, I'm sure you could get a game in with them. I would avoid anything that might piss them off (demons, undead etc.) and give them a simple session of fighting goblins and saving the day. If the parents are particularly bible thumpy, you could even cowtow to them by making the PCs some sort of Crusader pastiche. Use something simple like White Box FMAG and set them up for success so they don't get discouraged by getting gutted in the first combat.You really should make the effort to play with them though. I owe my own elfgaming history to my dad and uncle running games with me when I was younger than your nephews are. I still have my first character sheet, even.
>>98870886I went with family boardgames as gifts at christmas with my in-laws. They were around that age but a bit more spread out. Did a thing together, their parents saw it was not messed up or sinister (one had fun even) and increased the complexity of the games over time and the kids found out about d&d on their own and asked me about it. We don't get to play as much as I would like because of work but once a month I'm visiting and we play something. Don't force it, be genuine, most kids are interested in anything for a bit because they're just seeing it for the first time. It'll probably work out.
SotB S37, OSR&R con - Melbourne, Aus.Session went well, felt great to be back. The party stormed through my re-stocked Quiet Halls to reclaim a PC's +1/+3 vs. undead sword that had been stolen by one of Fulkth's Bugbears, who now leads a gang of pyromaniac, petroleum sniffing Goblins. I hadn't done a great job of designing the Bugbear's lair as a real challenge (I always forget about the sleep spell), but I am happy with the traps & flavoured special rooms I thought up.I house ruled sleep's range to be within earshot, and the caster was invisible before casting. Idk it felt like a guaranteed surprise, the dice agreed so I'm fine with how it played out but in the moment I did feel like I had under designed the encounter. Which of course, is all wrongheaded 5etardation and a hard mentality to truly break from.It's funny though, because I had thought about levelling up the Bugbear with extra hit dice, but figured that would have been FOE. >>98870349Agreed.
>>98868812IMO it's intuitive enough in terms of player understanding, but I find it very unintuitive from a realism standpoint that a crowbar potentially only grants 1/3 as much benefit as strength. Especially if the game is supposed to be like S.T.A.L.K.E.R., which I think of as bleak realism on the protagonist/PC end.For my part, I would much prefer to take a page from LBB OD&D's book and have a stat of 15 or higher grant +1 to the roll, with 6 or less giving a -1 penalty. That way, great strength and the right tool for the job are of equal value, which feels about right to me, gameplay-wise. The crowbar granting +2 and strength at most +1 would also feel solid.
>>98874283>Which of course, is all wrongheaded 5etardation and a hard mentality to truly break from.I agree it can be hard to break from, but I agree even harder that it's 5etard thinking. The players are actually allowed to score an easy victory now and then, just as they're allowed to get fucked over by the dice and chucked in a meat grinder now and then. Happenings happen.
Gamemaster's Guidelines got here, pretty excited about it. Table of contents as promised. Only took a quick riffle through it but looks like a solid mix of dm advice (gm advice even, how heretical), a take on osr play, house rules and tables. The outlines on dungeon and wilderness looked quite good.
Random things I found that were neat. Entirely too sensible approach to sea faring.
>>98874568NTAYRT bell that's where the makeup of the door comes in to play. and describing the situation is what really validates the "unreal-ism" of it. >its rusted tight around the frame. >the crowbar can't get enough purchase into the door gap to be of use.>it seems like something heavy is propped against the other side.if a character only has a 1 in 6 chance of busting open a door, a crowbar is equal to their strength. If they have a 3 in 6 chance and the +1 crowbar, I see no reason why a 4 in 6 chance cant be narratively interpreted as the crowbar and the character working in tandem, not "the character is doing 75% of the work". its just an abstraction.
lol phone Gabor getting art punk with this layout.
and some amazing stuff with greek looking fighters with lasers. Anyway, looks great worth the shipping. Cool to see Graphite Prime get a lot of art slots, always liked their stuff.
>>98874737>>98874759>>98874773>>98874783Neat. What does it say on Basic gamemastering, Adventures and Campaigns and Fantastic Worlds? Those are the ones I care about the most.
Just bought this, what am I in for?
>>98874854Hope you like fighting bugbears.
>>98874862I do, actually.
>>98874737Do you know how it compares to ACKS regarding taxes and the lot? ACKS is way too dense for my liking but I understand there's something dormant there that begs for more practicality/handwaving.
>>98874283Thanks for the report! >the caster was invisible before casting. Idk it felt like a guaranteed surpriseReminder that by the PHB and DMG being invisible (including hide in shadows) or silent (including the spell and the thief skill) only adds +1 to the chance of surprise each. So 3 in 6 total in your case. And the Bugbears still have their own chance of surprise.
>>98874854A big meh
Can someone find me the DMG page where it said players don't get to decide whom to attack and the DM rolls randomly? I couldn't find it. From this current DF discussionhttps://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=96105
>>98875689NAYRT but the taxation rules cover 4-5 pages, are pretty simple and include provision for things like overtaxing, tribute and pillaging. Oddly enough, they're quite funny.>>98875931As you can see, Foster says Gygax didn't run AD&D like that, so most likely chalk this one down to misinterpretation/unclear rules writing, but the referent is DMG 70, "Who Attack Whom". Bottom left corner of the page.
>>98876067Thanks for the reference. What do you think Gary meant with "single out" here?> If characters or similar intelligent creatures are able to single out an opponent or opponents, then the concerned figures will remain locked in melee until one side is dead or opts to attempt to break off the combat.I can't make heads or tails of this passage, particularly because, on the surface, it seems to contradict the premise of the paragraph.
>>98875931>>98876067>>98876086I think what Gary meant by "single out" is getting to within 10' of one or more opponents. It's like he's giving the information out of order:1. You CAN decide to close in on ("single out") a specific opponent or opponent group.2. Once you are within melee combat range (ten feet), however, you don't get to pick which opponent to attack each round, you just attack a random one among those that are within 10' of you.
>>98876086I think what he means is exactly what it says: if you are unengaged and can select an opponent, you and that opponent subsequently remain locked in melee combat unless and until one side *actively* opts to disengage (which, in AD&D, is a painful and dangerous act allowing the enemy a free attack routine; see "Breaking Off From Melee", also DMG 70). In other words, even if you can *initially* select a target, you're subsequently locked in until that fight is over. Note also the next sentence, describing the actions of unengaged opponents: they will move to engage *unengaged* enemies (which is rational: if two opposing forces are of equal strength and one side mobs an individual on the other side, they'll quickly get flanked by the remaning enemies and get cut down; the sides of the melee will thus naturally square off as evenly as possible).Incidentally, the size-based random targeting discussed in that Dragonsfoot thread is adapted from the rules on firing into melee which can be found on DMG 63, "MISSILE DISCHARGE".
>>98876153>Incidentally, the size-based random targeting discussed in that Dragonsfoot thread is adapted from the rules on firing into melee which can be found on DMG 63, "MISSILE DISCHARGE".Gary references random targeting of missiles into a melee, but I think it meant it as an analogy rather than implying that the probability of hitting someone with a melee attack is proportional to size.I think the idea behind the rule is that you (usually) get only one opportunity to strike in a round because you get one opening that you are able to take advantage of in a minute, and that opening might come from anyone.The alternative interpretation, to also use size to determine the target in melee attacks, would seem to imply that combatants are swinging their weapons wildly and largely aimlessly into the melee. Which is hilarious, but probably more appropriate for someone who is under a Confusion spell or similar.
>>98876411I mean... yes, BTB the rule is for hitting with missile attacks fired into a melee, yes. What I'm saying is that the size-based target determination in melee that people *in that DF thread are discussing* is based on these missile fire rules. Not that melee targeting by size is correct BTB. I'm simply providing the origin of their proposed house rule.
>>98874803First Anon posting about getting his copy here (so, not the Anon you asked, but a knower): The section on Basic GMing is solid but unspectacular, nothing that will feel new to a regular ITT, but a much better description of old-school play than dogshit like Finch's Primer. The Advanced GMing section will probably give most posters at least one or two nuggets of gold IMO, a lot of very solid reflections on an amount of refereeing experience that few people, I think, have ever been able to match. (Just for reference, Melan's original Fomalhaut game AP thread on Dragonsfoot is from 2008 IIRC and was posted as the game went on, which implies he now has 18 years' experience of running old-school games as compared to Gygax's 9-ish when the DMG came out.)Adventures & Campaigns is arguably the core of the book; 50-ish pages of rock-solid practical advice on designing and running different types of scenario, again informed by huge practical experience. It's really good. Anon's photo of the discussion of sea expeditions is representative.I read Fantastic Worlds as a sort of adjunct to chapter IV; I think it's also really good, but mostly less hands-on and concrete, and more of a conceptual discussion of the sword and sorcery style and how it applies to fantastic adventure gaming. That's not to say that there are no rules or concrete advice; Anon's pic of the "artpunk layout" (to me, it's more reminiscent of JG tables, but never mind) is from that chapter and there's also a very practical discussion on how to handle trade in magic in-game, for example.Anyway, so far I haven't read anything I dislike or disagree with, and I think there's lots of useful material here. It's an excellent book.
>>98876427Didn't mean to imply that you did, just clarifying my reading. (I should have said it explicitly.)
>>98876454>he now has 18 years' experience of running old-school games as compared to Gygax's 9-ish when the DMG came outAND he's standing on the shoulders of Gygax, Arneson, and a couple decades of collective experience and discussions. Not to diminish Melan's contributions, these are extra reasons to be interested in what he has to say.
>>98876631Yeah I thought about mentioning that institutional knowledge too, but I felt like I was getting wordy already.
>>98875689They're again, some of the more reasonable approaches. It specifics its not going for a high granularity look because its not interesting to them, but suggests ACKS if that's your preference. Not mine, I really like the overall tone Melan is taking here but its nice to have what feels like a middle ground or third way between An Echo Resounding and ACKS.
>>98877115I know nothing about An Echo Resounding. Why did you use it here? Does it have a really casual economic system or something?
>>98877137Its an older Sine Nomine book from the Crimson Tides era that goes for a very pbta inspired tags and descriptors system that has some parts I like, similarly to ACKS having some tables I like the look of, but overall both end up being a lot more involved in their own ways than I want to put into most of my between sessions prep. They're both functional enough encompassing systems depending on your preferences but I am at my heart much less concerned with encompassing systems. Its an interesting read and I think led to a much cleaner working faction play system he developed in the X-Without-Numbers series. There's an old forum post where the two writers discuss their systems, I'm trying to remember which one, should have book marked it.
>>98865622I remember watching this as a kidl.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4StpMBjMmlYAnd now I'm thinking of making a hell of bureaucracy based dungeon (maybe in the actual hell, maybe it's elves)Has anyone seen something like this done before? I'm struggling to think of something besides collecting forms to get to the next form (which is just key finding, really) and being able to (or having) to bribe your way past the requirements.
>>98877164I have not but its a fun idea. >I'm struggling to think of something besides collecting forms to get to the next formCould take a look at the DMG's Specials & Traps tables or Courtney Campbell's Tricks, Empty Rooms, & Basic Trap Design book, go through the options and see about making them into more infuriating time sinks than anything else. but I think you have the large of it being a lot of back and forth for inane reasons which is likely less fun to play through if there's a lot of it. >collapsing floor becomes colour coordinated tile floor where sections collapse based on what forms you have already completed or what colour pen you used. Best averted by using blood on all forms, there is red in each tile. >Demon at the desk will exchange 1D6x10GP for being able to erase the D6 result in letters on the character sheet. Metaphysical shenanigans ensue if the character's sheet has abbreviation and they no longer have Str. >Teleport trap takes you back to the start of the Queue aka the dungeon. >All monsters can be turned on each other, successfully stealing the weapons permits from a group makes them subject to internal policing, having to turn in their weapons or face violence.I'd be inclined to not have too much of these unless you're going full gonzo fun house style play.
>>98877259>I'd be inclined to not have too much of these unless you're going full gonzo fun house style play.I mean. might as well but I need need the central "thing' to have some substance so it's not just a nonsense maze with paper keys, a managerial class dragon (what was the monster everyone reskins again besides bears?) and a reaction roll based on perceived NAP violations.
>>98877283Just thinking on it now after writing the first idea and I think I was wrong and being too sensible. Trying to make it cohesively understandable from the top down is at odds with making it into a bureaucratic hell really. The nonsense maze with papers gonzo fun house might be your best bet. You could do a reverse dungeon where the characters have to escape from the middle so getting information about the map and layout becomes part of it. You could even have a map given to them that is wrong but no one who made the map has any connection to the physical layout. The celestial bureaucracy said it needs to have 8 gongs in this hallway but the builder goblins knew no one would ever look who knew and by the time it was done they put in 2, called it a day and the monster who's domain it is has to keep pretending its got 8 because he'll get canned if it doesn't and its impossible to get the forms to change the design because it already says it has 8.
>>98877153>There's an old forum post where the two writers discuss their systems, I'm trying to remember which one, should have book marked it.I got you, famalamadingdong:https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/domain-management-in-ack-vs-an-echo-resounding/
>>98865622Where are anons finding OSR games to play with other based anons?
>>98878198Most Anons here seem to play with old friends, kids, or through discord.
>>98878198I am the only GM so my friends will play whatever the fuck I want to play.
Somewhat interesting video on the relationship between Chainmail and Warhammer Fantasy Battles that was discussed briefly in I think the last thread.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SbhoYmCfmY
>>98878198There are generally Facebook LFG pages for most major cities if you have a look.Rare to see OSR but no harm in asking/lurking.
>>98878198Family, wife and inlaws, or work friends or friends via work. I'm not even in an office job, work in the trades and its not hard to find people if you feel it out. Start talking about video games and see what comes up. Most people 40 and under at this point at worst don't care about tabletop games but almost no one is offended or put off by it even in rural areas I've lived in.
>>98877573Good read, thanks anon.
>>98877573It was a long time ago but I think there was another one where both guys were in the same thread talking about their systems.
>>98878821He lost me at the part where he tries to say having huge heroes killing lots of troops is historical. I can understand liking herohammer era and how it ties into chainmail and dnd with heroic characters ripping and tearing and that being cool fun, but saying it has historical precedent because armies would fair poorly if their leader died on the field is either boneheaded or very disingenuous.
>>98880862I thought he meant sometimes battles were decided by the death of the army commander, but I'd have to relisten to be sure. Of course if he actually said that you're right.
>>98880868Around minute 7, he builds into it. Its not a very in depth or serious video so I'm probably taking it too seriously.
>>98868940>Ability score modifiers for skills do NOT make the game better.So why use ability scores at all? Are there any OD&D-likes that just take out the ability scores? It seems like ability scores were originally just tacked on to make players feel special and then later editions did the work of incorporating them into play.
>>98881111>So why use ability scores at all?Because they make the game better when applied to the right systems.
>>98881111ntayrt I find the dual layer of >ability scores in 3-18 range as human and >ability modifiers as simplification for mechanical ease gives me an easy reference if I need to make a comparison between characters, monsters, etc. in an adjudicated or improvisational way or sparing use of roll-under while the shorter range of modifiers for classic rolls keeps it straightforward otherwise. The increased granularity gives it more texture, which is useful for players to be able to imagine their characters a bit more and to come into play over longer campaigns. I've played and run games with just the bonuses and it works fine if you're all already familiar with the concepts and are running it fairly fast and lose strong focus on DM calls but looses the appeal fairly quickly over time, same as most of the light/fast 'solutions' people come up with reading b/x for the first time.
>>98880756That's the thread I posted, follow it down and they both show up to discuss the similaritiies and differences in their respective systems
>>98881172That makes sense, thanks for posting. >I've played and run games with just the bonuses and it works fine if you're all already familiar with the concepts and are running it fairly fast and lose strong focus on DM calls but looses the appeal fairly quickly over timeSo you got rid of the 3-18 value, and thus dispensed with the possibility of roll-under checks, but you kept the small bonuses for purposes of combat and reactions and such? That’s interesting. What was it you got tired of, besides just missing the ability scores? >>98881152How so and which systems?
>>98878671IRL or Discord?
>>98879957Are you the GM?
>>98881205I could be blind but in the 4 pages its just Sine Nomine (and noism and punjo) and some randoms.
>>98881283>So you got rid of the 3-18 value, and thus dispensed with the possibility of roll-under checks, but you kept the small bonuses for purposes of combat and reactions and such? Yes. >What was it you got tired of, besides just missing the ability scores? A lot of it was seeing players become disinterested in mechanical resolutions after a short period of time. Having more than one avenue of engagement keeps it from becoming as repetitive to them. Doesn't have to be much, but a bit of variety seems to help. On my side it gives me a wider range of things magic items can effect, traps can effect, monsters can effect, etc. All these things can be streamlined down to bonuses only or whathaveyou but it seems much less satisfying over time. Makes sense, the ultralight strip down designs weren't about long campaigns really.
>>98881283Try reading B/X and the DMG
>>98881111I've heard Ransack is one such game.
>>98881666Removing the ability scores would also change the dynamics of ability-draining effects like from Shadows. Dropping from +1 to +0 to -1 is more harsh, in most cases, than prescribed.
>>98881499I'm usually running the game, I tend to call it DM if its OSR or NUSR. The niece has run some games but they're not as interested in that side currently. One of the work guys also runs a 5e game for a different group and it sounds like a thing I do not want.
>>98881111>>Are there any OD&D-likes that just take out the ability scores?At that point you're basically playing a Borg game.
>>98881111Searchers of the Unknown / 1974 Style, and those other ultralights that were a flash in the pan a while back.>https://searchersoftheunknown.wordpress.com/2014/12/05/searchers-of-the-unkown-original-version/>https://searchersoftheunknown.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/1974-style-rulese280942014-02-01.pdfThey're fine for a one-shot last minute game, but kinda pointless if you know BX or any retroclone rulesets.
Can we talk about Dyson Logos? His maps are pretty and some of them are without a doubt useful, but the one linked below... what is it? It doesn't seem to be very usable. Is this just something he does because his patreon supporters like to see these exercises in style?https://dysonlogos.blog/wp-content/uploads/2026/10/scavengers-compiled-36.jpg
>>98887124Megadungons don't appaer to be as commonly used thing compared to other forms but they're a classic part of osr. I'd like to run or play one but its not where the group is at. Having the possibility to expand any dungeon into a much larger and central part of the campaign is always appealing but 30-40 rooms per floor and wilderness exploration peppered with lairs to break things up is has been more satisfying for the most part. Megadungons and BIG THING are cool enough concepts it gets some attention and the occasional large publications. How people court and keep their patreon supporters is a dark and horrible mystery to me and hopefully there aren't darkweb sales of dyson's foot juices in a jar.
>>98887124> it really exists as a visual project more than an actual gaming product (at this time)
>>98881111I might just be talking complete bull, but I'd imagine ability scores were partly just a carry over from Blackmoor where the characters all had (at least judging by pictures of their character sheet) like 6 gorillion different stats for all manner of abilities and skills
>>98887547>megadungeon*normal dungeon, not a lair
>>98887547Hi Saltanon.I'm questioning the utility of having such a large map with no stocking. Ideally the two are created in tandem. As you stock, you find you'd rather move a piece of the dungeon. Not something you can do with a Dyson map without ruining its prettiness, which is its main (if not only) draw.
Thoughts on Swords & Wizardry?
>>98888200It was mid, I enjoyed ACKS a lot more.
>>98887124What about this is supposed to be unusable? He admits he hasn't keyed it, but at a glance it's a well-designed megadungeon map. I could key this myself in an afternoon and get months of play out of it most likely.
>>98887326>I might just be talking complete bullNah. It's obviously impossible to *prove* at this point but everything indicates that you're bang on target.
>>98888200Single save is not a thing I like so I don't use it. Its an interesting idea as a very easy introduction to OSR play and the perception that saves from older editions are harder for people to understand but I think that's more selling people short, the concepts aren't that hard Basic was made for 12 year olds. There may be further differences but I haven't dug into it enough to know more.
>>98888200It filled a valid purpose when it was made, but it's a fairly unfaithful clone of OD&D and now that the original game is widely available, superfluous.
>>98888200I stopped caring about other retroclones after LotFP and BFRPG.
>>98887926Not saltanon, I'm more of a savoury guy, but maps without stocking are ideal for me. The a e s t h e t i c s of the dungeon map are not a thing I'm too concerned with. I tend to take maps other people have already made because it saves me the time of generating one and I can key them myself very quickly. Adjusting the room location or physical dimensions is easy, I'm either drawing the combined maps for fun or printing it out and marking it up anyway. They're not things I use for showing to the players until well after they're never going back to that dungeon.
I like Hyperborea
>>98888200Finch's shitbrew falsely marketed as an OD&D retroclone. I don't like that it misleads newbies and casuals into thinking that they are playing OD&D when they aren't, but I won't hate you if you decide to play it; not that I see any reason for you to do it.
>>98888244>>98888593Fair enough, perhaps I was being too negative.
>>98888640What are the changes that he shouldn’t have made?
>>98888200It's fine. I keep a copy of White Box FMAG in my lunchbox in case I want to do some solo play at work. Not my preferred system, but I don't hate it.>>98888596I do too.
is there an ADND1e where they just fucking make the formatting more modern without changing a bunch of retarded shit
>>98889268OSRIC 2E is kind of that, but there are a few changes. Nothing more comprehensive exists, as far as I know.
>>98889180lol remember when you thought you knew about fire damage? Get over yourself.
>>98889446That was me, retarded-stalker-kun, not the anon you're replying to here.
>>98889454Oh you do remember. Good. >>98889530Different anon.
>>98889577Ages ago, I mistakenly claimed that "fire damage" is not a specific thing in any old school edition. Turned out there's a single magic item in B/X that uses the words "fire damage." I gave a mea culpa, and everybody sane moved on, everybody except for that guy. Apparently it was a red-letter day for him or some shit, because he's been trying to relive that moment off and on ever since, hoping to catch me out in another terrible social blunder or whatever the fuck he thinks happened.
>>98889577A few months ago a regularily grumpy anon, >>98889621This guy got annoying in a similar enough way that you did so I assumed you were the same shithead. Unfortunate there are several but on the plus side its good to see they mostly remember except that barely acknowledged it at the time.
>>98889632>a regularily grumpy anonThis is bordering on a schizo delusion at this point, anon, let it go already
I like the idea of calling anyone who gets mad for no reason Saltanon
>>98889664Agreed, it's a fine epithet for the purpose.
>>98889268Unfortunately there isn't one. Someone should make it, and of course it would be incomplete, but I'd much rather have omissions than Finch's house rules.
I am rereading the DMG and can't find some rule references. The itemised list on page 61 (left in picrel) would appear to imply that no action declaration is necessary: There's just no mention of declarations, and the "actions decided upon by the party with initiative" appear after the initiative roll.However, the itemised list on page 65 (right) says that spell casters must decide their spells before initiative is rolled.Does the text specify at any point whether any other actions A--H need to be specified before the initiative roll? I can't find anything to this effect, e.g. the rules for falling back and retreating, which B/X explicitly says must be declared, are on PHB pages 104 and 105 and no mention of declaration is made there.
>>98890615Ah, found it. It's on page 71.
>>98878230>or through discordSeriously? Is that the best we can do?
>>98890937What medium would you prefer?
>>98870886My nieces had the attention span for both character creation, a lore crash course and a full multi hour session in Ad&d while one of them was only like 5 or so.If you are a good storyteller and listen to them and their questions, then they will give you their unwavering attention, you don't need to be very old to roll a d20.I'm glad I played with them when I had the chance since another opportunity hasn't presented itself since.You only regret the campaigns you never ran when you had the time and opportunity.
>>98889268Not yet, but it would be nice.
>>98889268>>98889294I’m curious about this too. The problem is that retroclones can’t actually copy the exact words of Gygax and co, that would be plagiarism. They have to use different words to describe the same game, and in the case of AD&D 1e no one can agree on what game Gygax was trying to describe, least of all Gygax himself.If someone has done a better job than Finch then please tell us about it. But my understanding is that no one ever has or will. Trying to make a clear and coherent version of 1e is an errand for the damned.
>>98891683Nobody criticises OSRIC and Finch for interpretations of ambiguous rules. The problem is him constantly and arbitrarily mixing his crap in where the rules are perfectly clear while promoting his books as faithful. That's a bit gross AFAIAC.
>>98891860This, also the ambiguity in AD&D is grossly overstated by memes, it's OD&D that has all the ambiguity.
Can someone, anyone, explain why this exploded like it did? Every new hack or zine I see is made for it.It isn't doing anything any other OSR adjacent system hasn't, unless I am terribly mistaken.
>>98892541Same reason attacks accelerate: when catching the enemy flat-footed you can attack at leisure while he just stands there bewildered for a few seconds, and achieve the cutting/firing rate you would against a stationary target. In general combat targets are moving around, dodging etc. far more and this slows your effective rate of fire considerably. Most of any given one-minute round isn't spent nocking, drawing and shooting, but seeking your target, a clean target.
>>98892714It exploded because it's a non-OSR game pretending to be OSR and dropped at the exact right moment (the OGL debacle) for lots of 5e groups to become disillusioned and jump ship. It helped that it was the personal project of a 5e-famous third party adventure designer and it also helped that she's a lesbiak, since as you know 5etards are humongous fruits on average, but the timing is the main thing.
>>98892714Shadowdark is accessible, safe, and looks edgy. And it's got enough 5e DNA that hoes didn't get scared. To its credit, it is the first NuSR game that isn't objectively and plainly retarded. I don't like it, but it deserves to be more successful than most of the modern RPG market.
>>98892864Possibly I should also explain that in 5e circles, the OSR is seen as "the hardcore D&D" and also the really creative part of the D&D subculture, but also "chuddy" and grognardy, which is intimidating/doubleplusungood. So having a certified non-chud who's already revered internally for her creativity make their introduction to OSR (as they think) is the perfect opportunity for these types. There are thousands or probably tens of thousands of them who would never dream of just buying POD copies of B/X and getting on with it.And this is is typical, by the way. These things are never about objective quality, they're about social hacking.
>>98892882>it is the first NuSR game that isn't objectively and plainly retarded"Real-time torches" would lead me to disagree
>>98892714Several things1. Game was released during the OGL debacle2. The book has everything you need to play and it's formatted in a manner that makes ADHD kids capable of understanding3. Kelsey is a lesbo so it has the LGBT buff without being obnoxious about it.4. Despite some of it's flaws (i.e. torch timer, very bad XP for treasure quality table example) it's a fun game to play.
OSR stands for "Oh Shit, Run!"
>>98893311>Obscene Serpent Religion
>>98893329You can't just let your players pick up rocks and throw them!
>>98893374Slings are some of the best weapons since you never really run out of ammo.
>>98893311>>98893329>>98893374And people dispute that OSR rmeans nothing. With our more stringent definition of the game, we should rebrand as the "Narrow OSR" or NSR for short.
>>98893374>namflashback music and a dumpsterfire image I remember. I was there. >>98893480>NOSR Kickstart it I'm in.
>>98893480Nah, the other guys should rebrand as the Whatever-You_Want School Revival, or WSR
>>98893480I still think this thread should be called "Classic D&D." There would be no confusion or feuds then
>>98893853Total nonsense, you'd still have assholes trying to push 2e and 3e in here. Besides, we were here first, OSR was always a euphemism for the early TSR editions
>>98893880You could just do "first-decade D&D" then
Giant update to my "Not S.T.A.L.K.E.R." game. Built off of the LotFP ruleset. >https://anyflip.com/ihqgr/pndnLooking for feedback, input, thoughts on what works and doesn't, etc. Also looking for people to playtest a session or two for actual-play feedback.
>>98893894It's already in the OP. Anyone who is "confused" at this point is either retarded or pretending to be retarded, and neither one of those should be catered to.
>>98892901lol, this is a generous interpretation.In 5e circles they've never even heard of the OSR
>>98893505NOSR, I DONT LIKE IT
>>98894335https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPj8pjAXYdQ
>>98865622Back in my day you started at level 1, and by god, you stayed there! If you died, we didn't just kill your character, we killed the Player too!
>>98891860>The problem is him constantly and arbitrarily mixing his crap in where the rules are perfectly clearSuch as? I asked you the same thing about Swords&Wizardry. How do you feel about BFRP? How do you feel about ACKS?
>the troll is back to trying to push a name change of /osrg/Tiresome, but also nice to see that he admits to having lost once again.
>>98894502BFRPG is trash. It's an OSR game, but one of the shittiest. Gonnerfags have always been people too poor or cheap to buy any other clone or edition.ACKS is pretty cool, but unlike the Finch clones it doesn't pretend to be a faithful and direct retroclone; rather, it openly builds on the basis of B/X to do its own thing.
>>98894502https://rancourt.substack.com/p/ad-and-d-1e-osric-30-changelog
>>98894538Correct on all counts. Except Gonnerfags do it as least as much for ideological reasons, which is worse.
>>98894538>It's an OSR game, but one of the shittiestWhy, and which ones are better? Are you mad about ascending AC, or customizable thief skills, or what? What’s your idea of a faithful retroclone?>ACKS is pretty cool, but unlike the Finch clones it doesn't pretend to be a faithful and direct retroclone; rather, it openly builds on the basis of B/X to do its own thing.Ok, so then how do you respond to something like Shadowdark, which is more faithful than ACKS but also the creator doesn’t claim that it’s faithful?I don’t think that you have any real opinions about design principles, I think you’re just making it up as you go, “change is bad unless I like the author’s politics”.
>>98894644That’s a good start, now read it and try to form opinions.
>>98894502>>98894674>>98894685Kill yourself, fishfag.Everyone else. Remember how we deal with him. Don't engage except optionally to insult him. Hide and report.
>>98894688lol, yea, don’t let me trick you into discussing any of the games that you are ostensibly here to discuss, that would be awful.
>>98894709Hi fishfag
News from Necrotic Gnomehttps://necroticgnome.com/blogs/news/ose-setting-map-reveal-plus-new-cc-tease-halloween-sale-and-moreThere's a "map reveal" icky corporate speech of The Plains of Gnaron, a setting for OSE... with no hexes.Now granted, it could be that it is meant as an artsy map for players and that an actual DM map with hexes will be included. I will give Gavin the benefit of the doubt for now.
>>98894674>how do you respond to the claim that Shadowdark is more faithful than ACKS?Shrimple: "kill yourself, Fishfag".
Anyway, I’d like to see an AD&D-like that keeps the weapon tables, that’s my answer for the thing Finch shouldn’t have changed. But I can still see why he changed it, it slows combat down in an irreducible way (because it isn’t like the THAC0 table, there’s no underlying math for you to memorize).Another example, look at that bit on page 60 of the DMG, where characters who listen at doors for the first time also find out if they’re “keen eared”. I just don’t want that in a retroclone because retroclones are made to be played (if you wanted to celebrate Gygax’s idiosyncrasies you would just read 1e). A good game must either get rid of it (staying true to the standard principles of D&D character generation) or else embrace it (for instance, by adding more examples of random in-play skillgains, thereby changing the standard principles of character creation). Either way you’re going to puss people off. If you leave it unchanged (but move it to the PHB where it belongs), then it’s just bad design, in addition to pissing people off. Civilizing 1e is a painful and thankless task that has been driving DMs mad for generations, because it’s so bad, but also so loaded with magic and expectation.
>>98894800
>>98894800>>98894657See, I bring up BFRP, and you have nothing to say about the substance of the game but you have some sort of memetic take on the people who like it and how bad they are.
>>98894538What's wrong with BFRPG?
>>98895775Its various flaws have been discussed to death around here, and the fans' response to the various criticisms has usually (with the exception of one or two cool guys who can handle criticism like mature adults) been faggotry in the extreme, so you're not likely to get much genuine engagement at this point. A big one is that if you use the game's dungeon stocking rules, you will get a horrible funhouse dungeon jam-packed with monsters, no room to maneuver, and a serious lack of treasure, which is all down to Gonnerman not knowing what he was doing, probably due to a lack of guidance/analysis on dungeon design in the early days or the OSR movement.
Honestly, I am pretty impressed at how well spell casters and fighters seem to stack up to each other in ACKS, at least up to level 4. Some of us will be hitting level 5 this session and that is normally where the wheels start to come off in other games but we will see.
>>98895828>probably due to a lack of guidance/analysis on dungeon design in the early days or the OSR movement.You'd think by version 142 literally https://www.basicfantasy.org/downloads.html#sn_rules he'd have had the opportunity to fix that.
>>98895887Do you have Thieves as well in your group?
>>98896005We have a thief henchman and an elf antiquarian which is a kind of thief/half mage hybrid class also as a henchman.
>>98895828Makes sense. I'm not really familiar with it at all
>>98893918is this like fallout?
>>98897483Stalker is kinda like Russian misery fallout, yeah
>>98896668How well do you feel the ACKS II changes to the Thief work? Both out of combat (Dark Senses, hasty skill use) and in combat: Is it reasonably easy to get a backstab in? Does that give the Thief its own niche in combat?
>>98897483Fallout is more "cheerfully retarded post-apoc", STALKER is about incomprehensible alien technology fucking up a patch of the normal world. I don't know how closely Anon means to stick to that though.
>>98897886>shadowy sensesIt has been handy but the player who has the the thief types as henchmen is risk averse so they usually stay in the second line behind the fighters when they are not needed to check for traps>hasty thief skills We make liberal use of hasty skills, we figure that if 2 thieves check something and say it is safe that it probably is but the dwarf goes first just to be sure.>backstab In the dungeon it is a bit hard to pull off without help. Fortunately we have a mage with web and a spell to blind enemies and there is good synergy there. Also it is much easier to do in the wilderness if your group has numbers on the enemy and if your group has a Venturer you can strike during negotiations on a good reaction roll and inflict surprise on the enemy. My PC and several henchmen have in fact taken the ambushing proficiency which gives level 1 thief backstab in fact.
>>98893918Do you have a discord?
>>98900580I have a Discord account. Not a channel for my games.
>>98900797yeah thats what i meant. I like your stuff and I havent fully finished reading it. Keep up the good work, I like the soul you put into this so far
>>98894826>AD&D-like that keeps the weapon tablesJust play B/X, and include whatever parts of 1e that you want to.There, I just saved you $50. Sorry it won't look pretty on your bookshelf.
Here are some darkness-themed monsters from Carcass Crawler #4, to give your players a new fear of the dark.I posted about these a while ago, but I still really love them.1/2
>>989025902/2Lantern Moths and Torch-Bearer's Ghost are my personal favorites
>>98902590This is honestly a shit Grue.I do like the torch ghost though >>98902593, and although I think the Strober is kinda shit in implementation, the idea of a monster that specifically blinds infravision is a good one.Oil Mites read like a classic Gygax fuck-you monster, I don't like it but I respect it.
>>98902650Oil Mites are a Gygax fuck-you that doesn't kill you directly, but fucks over your ability to dungeoneer. Kinda like a rust monster actually!
>>98902650>This is honestly a shit Grue.Agreed. The Swords and Wizardry one is a bit better IMO, pic related
>>98902593Torch ghost fills a nice role in 1st-level friendly incorporeal undead
>>98902683>friendly? It's trying to kill the PCs by leading them to their doom, in revenge for its own death.
>>98902728No, I mean "1st level friendly". As in, not a basically guaranteed tpk for 1st level players.
>>98902673I feel that this still fails to respect the lore of the Great Underground Empire, but agreed that it's better than the other one.
>>98902730Ohhh right. Yeah, then I completely agree.
>>98902590>>98902593Speaking of which, has anybody read Necrotic Gnome's Demonic Grimoire? What are your thoughts?
>>98902590>Explode when exposed to flame inflicting 1d3 damage to any wthin 10' (save vs breath for half) save for half of a D3 is a bit retarded. But figuring out how to weaponize the mites is an interesting player puzzle, they'll make other mites explode and chain reaction a whole room.
>>98904658>I'd be putting it on smaller faster boats and using it to burn down ports if we get to do imagination war. If your naval combat is Peloponnesian War era themed it is significantly less useful in large scale engagements for sure though, is that what you're up to? I haven't seen any dnd or osr naval combat that would be enjoyable at that scale. I'm much more familiar with most ttrpg naval combat being a handwave mix of 1400-1800s with no real understanding or concern for anything with more than 2-3 boats and a bit of nautical themes. >>Sea monsters should be wrecking everything with no consequences at all. They can swim under the boat and attack it bellow the waterline to remove a plank or two, at which point the boat sinks. Or take out the rudder and disassemble it at their leisure.Triremes are stock ships in all OSR that is first decade editions. It's not meant to be historically accurate, you can perfectly well have an engagement between triremes and medieval sailed warships, for example.If you want to check out a game that's suitable for that kind of engagement, so more classical/medieval than WSIM, you should check out Trireme.
>>98904305Honestly forgot it was out. Something to read today
>>98904658>>98904678>Sea monsters should be wrecking everything with no consequences at all. They can swim under the boat and attack it bellow the waterline to remove a plank or two, at which point the boat sinks. Or take out the rudder and disassemble it at their leisure.Forgot this part. Yes, that's an issue. *Intelligent* sea monsters are really a big problem in seafaring adventures unless the DM pulls his punches or the party is very well equipped. I've never run something like that except episodically, but the feeling I have is that it's name level shit, perhaps an alternative to domain play.
>>98904458Yeah, that's dumb, it should be save negates or else just 1d6 save for half, which would be more in line with the damage from the oil alone anyway. (Although it always annoys me when people have lamp oil be explosive.)
>>98904305Maybe it's just me, but I feel like thread support for Norman's really dropped off since he bungled Dolmenwood and then decided to go with Advanced as the standard for OSE.
>>98906808Not just you, the bloom is definitely off that rose
>>98906808The thread enthusiastically supported the uncensored version of Dolmenwood, then decided that Dolmenwood was Nu-SR and bad, because those are the opinions proscribed by your friendly neighborhood thread police.
>>98907276Very low-T post
>>98895775They just hate that it tells you to have mostly-full dungeons, because OSR games tell you that the dungeon should be mostly empty (mostly), it’s legit but minor and I’ve never heard them give another answer. He’s also not going to give you an example of a more faithful retroclone (the only ‘clone’ that he supports is ACKS, which both is and is not faithful, depending on when you ask. Right now it isn’t faithful, because he doesn’t want anyone to compare it to a real retroclone, but if you asked about the rules of the thread then ACKS would be described as a faithful retroclone).
>>98907276>proscribedYou mean prescribed. Proscibed means forbidden. But also, you're overfocused on some sort of thread zeitgeist or groupthink you believe exist; for example I was never impressed with the density of Dolmenwood's hex keying, but others in the thread like it.>>98907386No, there's a bunch of other things. You can't have been paying much attention if you've never noticed anybody bring up the mutilated treasure tables which deprive the Fighter of one of his major advantages over the Cleric, for example.>ACKS spergingOh wait, it's you. I wasted my time replying. Ah well.
>>98907386>I’ve never heardPlugging your ears and shouting "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" will do that.
>>98907276>>98907386Kill yourself, fishfag.Everybody else: Remember how we deal with fishfag. Do not engage except by optionally telling him to fuck off, hide and report.
>>98907401>No, there's a bunch of other things.I’m happy to read an older thread if you can point me in the right direction, but the people who denounce retroclones in this thread are not generally going to give you a reason (and they certainly aren’t going to recommend a more faithful clone). You can’t have been paying much attention if you haven’t noticed that.>I wasted my time replying.Nah man, you’re trying to dismiss my arguments in a dishonest way, you would never just leave a post like mine without replying to it (but you would also never suggest a better retroclone, and you certainly aren’t going to defend the idea that ACKS is more faithful, you need to huff and puff your way out of it every single time).
>>98907401Oh, but you’re right about proscribed and prescribed, thank you for that.
>>98907471>they certainly aren’t going to recommend a more faithful cloneOSE-Classic. We recommend it all the time and it's even in the n00b DMG guide, fishfag.>defend the idea that ACKS is more faithfulNobody ever said that, fishfag.Also kill yourself, fishfag.
>>98907471AYRT and kill yourself, Fishfag.
B/X question: any advice or articles on running doppelgangers?
>>98907482>Nobody ever said that, fishfag.My guess is that probably one of the ACKSposters in his troll thread said this at some point to provoke him. He's got form for not being able to tell when people are sincere or just fucking with him, like remember when he thought that posting Macris' face shooped onto Conan or Napoleon was sincere idol worship, or when he couldn't tell that the BrOSR posters were just going along with his delulu to mock him? He's just too autistic or schizo or whatever the hell brain damage he's got to be able to identify taunts and flippancy.
>>98907502That's a definite possibility lol
>>98907482Good, this is the first time I’ve seen that happen with basic-clones, now what about Delving Deeper and OSRIC? I’ve seen them both shot down repeatedly here for not being faithful enough and no one recommended anything better (and really I had to be a pain in the ass for several days before you gave a better alternative to bfrp).>>98907502>>98907482If you don’t think it’s a faithful retroclone then you can’t discuss it here. This is the thread for first-ten-years D&D and faithful retroclones. I’m not the first person to call you on that shit and I won’t be the last, and you’re bringing it up yourself constantly, every time you point your finger at a game more faithful than ACKS and say that it isn’t faithful enough.
>>98907562Kill yourself, fishfag.
>>98907562Replying to the lies here for the benefit of any tourists passing by.>I’ve seen them both shot down repeatedly here for not being faithful enoughStop being retarded, we've explained it millions of thread and also IN THIS VERY THREAD.S&W and OSRIC are criticised for being marketed as mere restatements of OD&D and AD&D when they're actually full of Finch houserules. If it weren't for the false advertising we wouldn't have any problem with either one of them.>If you don’t think it’s a faithful retroclone then you can’t discuss it here.You're equivocating on the meaning of "faithful" and mixing up two standards.DEFINITION (1) BASELINE FAITHFULNESS STANDARDWhat "faithful" means for the purpose of being on topic for this thread is respecting the defining procedures of OSR-style play, as explained in e.g. the OSR noob DM's guide on pages 2 and 3.https://mega.nz/file/8MAWzD7Z#3QVw6GFgpeGQeQ-9Xc0hW9iRiMUQSKfLApQST_AyQawIn this regard, ACKS, OSRIC, and S&W are all faithful retroclones, because the modifications that they make do not violate any of the core OSR procedures.DEFINITION (2) SELF-IMPOSED MARKETING FAITHFULNESS STANDARDThe problem with S&W and OSRIC, again, is that THEY have set a stricter standard of faithfulness FOR THEMSELVES in their advertising. TL;DR OSRIC and S&W are faithful enough to be OSR by our definition (1), but they are not faithful enough by their own marketing campaigns (2).>I’m not the first personYou're not multiple people, fishfag. You're not even a person, you're a subhuman.
