if you are playing in a Tolkien setting do good orcs just become elves?
>>98896889I’m pretty sure Tolkien thought orcs could redeem themselves, but Amazon is just so cringe and already shit the bed, so, no one will like it. No one will stand for a good orc.
Total Rangzer death
>>98896889No.
>>98896961Why not, aren't they just elves that got the mark of Cain
>So here is Ainorak, he's a balrog, but a good balrog...no, he's not a maiar, he got tricked like the rest but became good, also his has angel wings and an ice sword named Devastator of Light. He has a kpop group and sings in all the Elven kingdoms
They're still making this? I thought they gave up when it was trash and everyone hated it
>>98896928He did say orcs could redeem themselves, yes. It was a great regret of his to make a sapient species that couldn't be redeemed.
>>98897071Gotta squeeze that blood from the stone somehow.
>>98897071But anon, it being trash is the point. They want to subvert and destroy, not create.
>>98896928Wasn't it said in the second age every race fought on both sides except for the Noldor, and you had the mountain/eastern orcs rebelling against Sauron? >>98897058That would be Arien right? After Morgoth tries to rape her she ends up the fiery spirit escorting the sun and she is the same class as a Balrog.
>>98896976Because Tolkien's problem was EXACTLY one of irremeadeble Orcs (or not). He concedes in letter 153 that they should not be tought of surely irremeadable, but that's it.Making them go back to being elves is, like, the exact contrary of ME's spirit, which is one of loss, decadence and sins being forgiven only with sorrow. A good-ish orc might be feasible, but one that washes away it faults and gets back to a superhuman status? The Noldor didn't.(also, presumably most orcs in third age were born orcs anyway. Consider Bolg, son of Azog and the matter that female orcs are canonical to the letters)
>>98897071The producers got a contract that forces Amazon to hire them for 5 seasons iirc
>>98897110That's absurdly dumb for Amazon, if true. Mind-boggling hard to believe.Like... you're doing no joke the costlier media shit in the history on mankind or something, and you're hired for potentially other 4 seasons of losing profits? Why the helll would they even think of something like this?
>>98897106What's sort of funny is that the Orc dilemma is has an interesting solution in modern times. Back then it wasn't easy to conceive of something that clearly talked and thought as being outside redemption. But Orcs could quite possibly be, as artificial life, running on some sort of artificial intelligence - its just the semblance of sapiency, but not the actuality. Which is amusingly predictive, given how we can now see that AI is essentially a mockery of the human spirit and creativity.
>>98897147Americans tend to believe that the richer you are, the more intelligent you must be, having cracked the money secret.But the truth is, most of the hyper rich are wildly out of touch with culture and media, if not reality itself. I'm pretty sure Bezo's son just asked him to do this and he shrugged and threw 5 seasons worth of money at it.
Is it like how pigs and boar are the same animal and they change if they're captive or not?
>>98897156I rather think he just didn't quite manage to reconcile the genesis of the dwarves with e.g. that of the orcs so we have all sorts of half assed explanations
>>98897081>>98897089At $100,000,000 per episode i think it was about squeezing as much money into a hole as possible then subverting it into being on fire>>98897110Lmao based
>>98897167Pigs might be eurasian boar, but the jury's still out on it and there are 20 other boars. Many of them could be said to be domesticsted but arent still pigs
>>98897166Yeah, but this is not about Bezos. It's not only HIS money.>>98897156It's kinda a false analogy anyway. Orcs clearly have human like intelligence (and no control over their darker instincts, but interestingly they seem to genuinely have a concept of decency: "the regular elvish trick" seems to have met a certain disdain, theoretically).That being said, you know what? Orcs/other fantasy bogeymen as stocastic evil parrots isn't a bad idea at all. Would steal outside of TOR.
>>98897156I always prefer how WHF and Goblin Slayer answered the question of the possibility of a member of a monstrous evil race possibly being raised into a good person, that being "It's not inconceivable, but the danger involved doesn't make it worth it to find out". It's like how brown bears and crocodiles aren't outright evil as far as we know, but we still need to respect that they're dangerous and vicious animals that we should protect ourselves from either way. Maybe orcs could be redeemed, maybe not, either way it should more about safety than morality.
>>98897156He seems to have the divide in his creatures. He never worries if Trolls or Dragons are redeemable. Trolls are stone animated with morgoths malice so basically are your AI example, and dragons seem to be spirits stuck in bodies. Its only orcs that are mortals tortured and bred into craven things
>>98897097>in the second age every race fought on both sides except for the NoldorCan you name some elves that fought for Sauron?>the mountain/eastern orcs rebelling against SauronI'd like you to find a quote that supports that too because I don't remember that in the Last Alliance but maybe it was elsewhere. When you do come back with that quote though remember that the post your replied to was about orcs redeeming themselves. Rebelling against Sauron doesn't mean that they were redeemed or redeeming themselves, simply they thought they had better odds of surviving or got sick of being subservient to Sauron and wanted new leadership.
>>98897547>All living things were divided in that day, and some of every kind, even of beasts and birds, were found in either host, save the Elves only. They alone were undivided and followed Gil-galad. Of the Dwarves few fought upon either side; but the kindred of Durin of Moria fought against Sauron.But we have this, where Saurons necromancy was using the souls of evil elves >It is therefore a foolish and perilous thing, besides being a wrong deed forbidden justly by the appointed Rulers of Arda, if the Living seek to commune with the Unbodied, though the houseless may desire it, especially the most unworthy among them. For the Unbodied, wandering in the world, are those who at the least have refused the door of life and remain in regret and self-pity. Some are filled with bitterness, grievance, and envy. Some were enslaved by the Dark Lord and do his work still, though he himself is gone. They will not speak truth or wisdom. To call on them is folly. To attempt to master them and to make them servants of one’s own will is wickedness. Such practices are of Morgoth; and the necromancers are of the host of Sauron his servant.As for the unaligned orcs of the second age>while the Eastern Orcs, who had not experienced the power and terror of the Eldar, or the valour of the Edain, were not subservient to Sauron while he was obliged for the cozening of Western Men and Elves to wear as fair a form and countenance as he could, they despised him and laughed at him.
>>98897594Thank you.
>>98897604Though those unaligned orcs even if they were fighting against Sauron were probably evil >Morgoth not Sauron is the source of Orc-wills. Sauron is just another (if greater) agent. Orcs can rebel against him without losing their own irremediable allegiance to evil (Morgoth).
>>98897625Yeah, I guess the difference is a bit like Franco's spaniards who didn't fight with Hitler, but they were still fascists.
>>98897635I like how he just causally says yep, there were orcs in the last alliance as allies of convenience but never expands on it
>>98897249Personally I think they are subspecies of eurasian boar since both can interbreed and their offspring aren't sterile
>>98898212biological species concept is meh, because it gets wrecked by ring species
>>98896928Redemption by Iluvatar after death?
>>98897156He did talk about them maybe being animals formed into the shape of elves/men who parroted the recordings Morgoth put into them. Including thoughts and acts of rebellion.
>>98896928Pretty much. Just more cringe politics hamfisted into a poorly and acted written fantasy story.
>>98896889>if you are playing in a Tolkien setting do good orcsIf you are playing in a Tolkien setting there are no good orks.
>>98897260>and no control over their darker instinctsAnon they're mostly slaves to literal demons, anything but malice and evil is crushed out of them as they develop and that would take millennia to wean out in any population which has to be insular and isolated because most races kill orcs on sight. The north star is an actual angel up there to remind them even at night that they will all be hunted down.Not exactly a big impetus to improve even after freedom.
>>98898291Reminder orcs are still alive and well in the modern world according to Tolkien and they created the tools of war most horrific in WW1.
>>98898551Maybe good orchs?
>>98896889this is the goofiest looking shit ever. something a 13 year old girl came up with.
>>98898600Orcs are Fr*nch? Yeah, fair. That tracks.
>>98898863They are described as sallow skinned, short and bulbous headed. The free ones are in the east. They are Asians
>>98897147It just proves that jewazon doesnt care about money, but it does about destroying your culture and your values.
>>98897147>Why the helll would they even think of something like this?Because it's a win-win; either it makes as much money as they want it to and they can point to it and say "we're making money now pls invest" or it's a financial garbage fire that gets used as a tax write-off and they can point to it and say "we know how to make lemons from lemonade now pls invest". And because it's steaming, it's easier than ever to make the numbers dance.>Prime subscriptions rose 5% after it started streaming, we're making money>It didn't reach the target of 1.4 gorillion streaming hours that we were targeting to break even, we're losing moneyBasically how it works in the most common form in the film industry is that a parent company creates or contracts a shell corporation to make the movie and thus handle the money while providing "services" that end up siphoning off almost all of the income - naturally, the parent company has de facto total control over all accounting and can therefore do whatever the fuck they want.>Company A creates company B>Company B receives a loan of ~$100M from company A to make movie, with assistance from company A>Movie releases, movie brings in ~$200M>Company A has their loan of $100M repaid, + $40M interest + $90M "fees for services rendered" + "$30M in sales lost to piracy">Anyone who wasn't important enough to either have a large fixed fee or points on the gross gets fucked, parent company writes off the "$60M loss" against their taxes or actual shortfalls from other moviesAmusingly enough the Jackson trilogy is actually one of the most notorious examples ever of Hollywood accounting; according to New Line Cinema, the films made a net loss against more than six BILLION dollars of reported gross income.
If Tolkien himself was never able to answer the question to his own satisfaction, a bunch of fuck wits like us on a Patagonian Penile Enhancement board aren't going to accomplish a thing.
>>98901799Bezos is not gonna take from me my books anymore than the millions fanfictions out there, and if there is ONE nerd author that is really difficult to "overwrite" it's fucking Tolkien anyway.You're probably easier making people see Homer like last hollywood blockbuster.>>98903034Honestly I think the orc problem is kinda cool as a philosopical in-setting thing, would use it when playing in ME. Makes for some interesting question for the characters - remarkably, even if they spoke with Gandalf or Elrond about it they wouldn't have the answer. Is maybe having a tiny place for potential forgiviness doable? In your usual adventure most probably not, but. Considering that LOTR is about an ambigous "monster" as much as heroics or landscapes, I feel like it works.
>>98898863considère la possibilité du suicide, ducon
>>98896928>I’m pretty sure Tolkien thought orcs could redeem themselvesCould, but it wasn't anything common or even reasonable to expect. It'd be a 1% of a 1% of a 1% moment, and not one worthy caring about when it came to orcs. Ironically Amazon COULD'VE pulled this off if they didn't push the whole "orcs have families" crap, which just made this shit way too obvious and overdone to make this rare orc character arc worktldr: Amazon should've double-downed on orcs being shitheads, to make this arc work effectively
>>98903068Frodo himself came to realize the humanity of orc by the end, chastising Samwise for his black and white mentality. Since they're still living beings whom were "ruined by Sauron".This makes me think the life of an orc is utter hell on a sense we can't imagine.
>>98903114the easy way to do it was when Sauron buck broke the eastern orcs
>>98896889Was the Lord of The Rings show Amazon did really that bad on it's own?Tolkein's LOTR is a big pillar of modern fantasy. I think Conan The Barbarian is one of them too.I know there are more, but I don't know what they are at the moment.
>>98896928the problem is that to be redeemed he'd have to accept illuvatar as his lord and saviour but amazon is kiked to the gills so why the fuck would they allow that kind of uplifting pseudocatholic mythology that tolkein created.
>>98897071>I thought they gave up when it was trash and everyone hated itThat's the point anon. The goal is to ruin it for everyone.
>>98896889>IM SUBVERRRRETIIIIIIIIIING
>>98903626>Was the Lord of The Rings show Amazon did really that bad on it's own?YES
>>98903626Appendix N
>>98896889Who is paying for this? No one is watching it.
>>98897110I feel like it'd be cheaper just to hire contract killers to repeatedly kill the showrunners until they stop trying and give up.
>>98897594That last point reminds me of that "femboy Sauron" meme wrt. Sauron's fair form, and now I'm imagining orcs laughing and throwing homophobic slurs at Sauron.
>>98904932>Who is paying for this? No one is watching it.I think its Bezos pet project to literally make the world worst. It was created about the same time he was going on about how story telling can't be hard you just make it like a product. He could make a story!
>>98896889>>Hey, it's that Orc over there..>Which Orc?>>You know. The Orc. The Orc with an arc.
