>Introduced cantrips and gave lower-level casters something to do.>Formalized the Points of Light style settings.>Introduced rituals for noncombat magic.>Stopped wizards from being the answer to every niche (being better at unlocking and finding traps than rogues, better at stealth than rogues, etc).>Clear formalized rules for almost everything>Greatly influenced other games like 13th Age, Pathfinder, Lancer...What other great achievements can be attributed to 4E DnD?
>>98881126Cantrips (and orisons) aka 0-level spells predate 4e, same with rituals. Other than that you are correct.
>>988811264e rituals are bad. There was a lot of good in 4e but the support for non-combat problem solving was generally bad, navigating the dungeon and making dungeon-scale choices is more fun in other editions.
>>98881331Why, because there weren't 20 pages of rules about it?Can't talk to your DM, you want to bludgeon him with the rulebook?
>>98881126>What other great achievements can be attributed to 4E DnD?Making theater kids cry never-ending tears.
>>98881443>>98881586Wouldn't be 4e relevant exactly around the time when these type of people began playing tabletops though(age wise, in early teens).On the other hand, back in early 00s, everyone I knew already played weird races like dwarfs, half orcs and even half snakes. So don't even know why nu /tg/ and other alt righters bitch so match about people playing non humans.
>>98881126Nentir Vale.Warlord.Level 20-30 campaigns. Class balance. Unified design language & presentation.
That artstyle is hideous.Too bad paizo copied it (the artist) for pf, pf art style has also always been hideous.I'm willing to bet more people than you'd think got off on the wrong foot with that edition because the artstyle is absolute ass cancer.
>>98881608>Wouldn't be 4e relevant exactly around the time when these type of people began playing tabletops thoughVan Gogh never made a cent off of his paintings; they only started selling after he died.The 5e theater kids cry about 4e. That's what my post was about.
>>98881519When will you people get it through your fucking heads easily half of the people playing TTRPGs are not playing with their friends, they are playing with the only people they could find interested. In that type of setting you need to be able to bludgeon the DM with the rule book.
>>98881126It had the first official highly competent, supported, official character builder. There were good fan builders for games like Shadowrun and GURPS, but they weren't official. Also had the best official online support there's ever been without nickel and diming the user.
>>98881839Honestly it depends on who was doing the art. William O'Connor's work was quite good, but Wayne Reynolds sucks as always, and the latter was the one doing the covers for the most part.
>>98882064This. I don't even like half the people I play D&D with but in a small town it's the only group I could find.
>>98882064Friendoids will never admit how luck they are to have friends with the same interests. I'm an adult and I have no friends, I have co-workers. I don't know or associate with anyone outside of my job. I never liked sports but because the guys from the office like hockey I started going to the sports bar with them. Not one of these guys would be interested in TTRPGs.
>>98881839I like it, it has a strange charm to it
>>98882064Skill issue, you can make new friends.
>>98882821Deflected and ignored the point.
>>98881126>4e influenced PathfinderAin't pathfinder based on 3.5e?
4th was my first edition, so I didn't realize it was controversial or different at the time. The other day I looked over my old 4e books, inspired by these threads. I TOTALLY fucking forgot the Eladrin were a core race. What the hell was that? Three separate races in the phb were Elf, Half Elf, and Different Elf. How are Eladrin enough of a crowd pleaser to be core? Dragonborn at least have this immediate appeal, "you can be the dragon". And Tieflings, they obviously became incredibly popular largely because of 4th. But what the hell were they thinking with Eladrin? I do think the system has some good ideas, and even if it didn't, the sheer amount of innovation would be admirable anyway. Making Martials Fun is principal among these. I was surprised by how boring Fighter daily/encounter powers really were though, it could have been much more creative, but some of them were fun, especially movement based abilities. Warlord was indeed a standout class design, really good. When we abandon the Spell Slot, Spell book, Vancian/not Vancian questions for magic, it feels stranger and stranger to yet have the wizard, warlock, and sorcerer all be distinct classes. 5th introduced Bounded Accuracy, which I'll defend to the death despite its obvious flaws, but otherwise it's only presenting a stripped down version of 3.5 that feels unambitious. 4th had some balls, and that deserves respect. >>98881331At least it HAD a noncombat framework. Lots of the time this gets reduced to mere individual skill checks, but I noticed that the 4e rules explicitly encourage DMs to run noncombat encounters as a series of turns in initiative order, with examples of how to apply this in a social negotiation or for trap disarment. That's appropriate for the 4e design direction, it's already combat-forward enough that visualizing noncombat as an initiative-ordered series of turns feels mechanically right inside that context.
>>988835794e defenders are retarded.
>>98883579Just from the top of my head, cantrip system in pf was exactly the same as 4e one.2e literally uses keywords, 4e ritual system with them being in separate spell slots from everything else, and one thing I actually hate about 2e is how you multiclass through feats. And all classes having a specific set role in party, but this time without openly grouping them by said role
>>98883660Eladrin are just High Elves by a different name, because 4e didn't really do subraces well.
>>98883758Pathfinder 2E stupid.
>>98881435They spent too long arguing with 3.xirs and it gave them brain damage.
>>98881126They gave she-dorfs a +2 racial bonus to cup sizes.
>>98883538Deflected and ignored the point.
>>98881126ITT:>Pic related
>>98884564I don't get it
>>98883579>>98883758bro pathfinder 2e has been a thing for years and years how are you this misinformed
>>98883791Also there was that time PF1E had a Ranger archetype that traded out spells for reworded 4E Ranger powers.
>>98881126Half of the shit you listed was done by previous editions and the other half is objectively bad.4E is the worst version of D&D ever made.
>>98882064>When will you people get it through your fucking heads easily half of the people playing TTRPGs are not playing with their friendsWhen will YOU get it through your dumb fucking skull that if you do that, you're doing it wrong? YOU LITERALLY SHOULD NOT PLAY RPGS EXCEPT WITH YOUR CLOSEST FRIENDS. Not just D&D, any RPGs at all. Friends not interested? Then simply do not play. It's not worth it. Playing an RPG with strangers is not fun and will never be fun no matter what the rules are like. Don't do it. Just don't do it. Videogames are for everyone. Boardgames are for everyone. Card games are for everyone. But RPGs are for closest friends only and that's a fact.
>>98881126Still the best edition
>>98881126>What other great achievements can be attributed to 4E DnDFell's Five.Best comic to come out of any edition, and it illustrated perfectly how 4e combat is supposed to run.
>>98885978>Playing an RPG with strangers is not fun and will never be fun no matter what the rules are like.False. I've had bad systems completely ruin games with friends and good systems make games with strangers I didn't care much for decent.
>>98881126World Axis > Great Wheel
>>98887664That attitude of theirs is an outgrowth of CAAC faggotry. I'm an adult and I don't have time for friends. I haven't had friends since my late 20s and none of my coworkers are interested in this kind of shit be it TTRPGs or Wargames. If I don't just join whatever group I can find I am effectively out of the hobby. I don't even like half the people I play with but it's that or nothing. Assholes like him would say it better not to play at all if your not playing in the way they approve of. My guess is that he's a NEET who's friends with other NEETs and spend their NEETBUX on their hobbies while living rent free with their parents.
>>98881519Your strategy is to tell people not to buy your product? Fascinating.
>>98883859Mirin' dem boulders
>>98887879>I'm an adult and I don't have time for friends.damn bro you wanna talk about it?
>>98881519faggot :)
>>98888158In what little free time I have I run a Deathwatch campaign but I don't particularly like any of the players enough to consider them my friends because we don't do anything together outside of the game. I'm very black pilled and I'm a functioning alcoholic so I'm not exactly easy to be friends with. I'm more worried about my job being taken by AI these days than anything else because I use AI and know if the higher ups at my company have half a brain they'll be replacing my entire department.
>>98888059I delve greedily and deep in her, if you know what I mean.
>>98881305I assume OP is retarded and meant to say introduced them being unlimited useWhich they fucking shouldn't be, low level wizards needing to fall back on shit like crossbows or something and think carefully about when they use their few spells is cool.Maybe it could be brought half way and make cantrip spells work on some sort of mana system or some other setup that means after you spew a bunch of them you gotta wait 5 minutes to spew more.Maybe Stricter, 1 cantrip per minute or even Stricter per 5 minutes per wizard level
>>98888825They're very weak in 4e. A wizard is genuinely never casting that shit unless they're out of their real spells or the fight is already over and they're just cleaning up the last guy.
>>98888825>low level wizards needing to fall back on shit like crossbows or something and think carefully about when they use their few spells is cool.No, it's notAnd it always was a cancer.
>>98888885I agree. Vancian magic fucking sucks and I have no idea why so many people put up with it. Mana points for spontaneous casting is so much more intuitive.
>>988813050-level spells were not at-will in 3rd edition, you had limited uses and they were largely useless outside of being able to handwave light sources with Light which was 10 minutes per caster level or occasionally using Acid Splash to destroy something with high hardness since acid explicitly bypassed it.https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htmYou got 3 per day at lvl 1 and 4 from 2+, with them still needing to be prepared unless you were spontaneous. +1 per day if you were a sorcerer. They weren't what modern day cantrips are as at-will options that replace needing to carry around the Light Crossbow of Shame every wizard and sorcerer felt compelled to have as a backup
>>98888922No, vancian magic is fine and I love seeing itBut being forced to use crossbow at early levels as a caster is beyond retarded, and I can't imagine why would someone want it back, ever.There a godo reason why pathfinder while using 3.5 system still gave you shit to cast
>>98888938in pathfinder you're still forced to use crossbows
>>98888825No.
>>98888938I won't touch 3.5 or Pathfinder anymore. I am solidly a 4e DM. I don't care about the memes, it is significantly easier to design encounters around the party and write plots that a level 3 or 4 spell can't completely derail.
>write plotsSo you're not a DM?
>>98889057meant for >>98889031
god damn he's mad as FUCK lmao
The best thing about 4e was that it introduced level-scaling Armor Class for player characters.
>>98889486Oh right, it generally introduced scalling for some annoying shitstats
>>98885959Oh, NOW objectivity matters?
>>98888825>>98888929I don't understand why they were called "0-level spells" if they weren't unlimited use. It just makes intuitive sense that if the lower the spell level, the more often you can cast it, then spell level 0 means you can cast it unlimited times. If they wanted them to be limited use, why didn't they just call them 1st level spells and increase the level of all the others by one?
>>98890835Vancian magic is shit in the first place. It was copied from some shitty novel series wholesale and just stapled into D&D. You have already given it more thought than the people who implemented it in the game.
>>98881608NTA but no.Theater kids all played WoD and did for a decade before 4e even came out.
>A warrior puts his best scores into Strength, then Stamina, then Agility. An arcanist puts them into Intellect, then Agility or Stamina. A rogue puts them into Agility, then Intellect for skill points. The generator rolls 4d6-drop-lowest like a player, or uses a fixed spread like D&D’s standard NPC arrays (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 for heroes; 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 for ordinary folk), and places the results in that order.Is it true? Running 3.5 game simulation through ai
>>98890696Are you one of those retarded fags that gets your feelings hurt when you miss an attack roll and think you should hit every time? Go play Draw Steel and suck Matt Covilles tiny dick faggot.
>>98891426I used to play D&D with a guy like that. Every missed attack, every failed save and every poorly thought out plan that hindged on a skill check was taken as a personal attack by me against him. That didn't last for long because he just decided to stop playing and was not invited to future campaigns.
>>98891426>unironically imaging scenarios just to get mad about them
>>98891445See >>98891436 it is far from uncommon to have a bitchy player who can only have a good time if they are constantly winning.
>>98891436Good. I once had a player rolls two 2s on his first attack rolls of a major battle, another player made a joke about it, he turned beet red, screamed FUCK YOU and threw his fuckin dice, one of them chipped paint on a special miniature I'd painted just for this battle, he stormed out, slammed the door so hard a painting fell and broke, went upstairs and broke the vacuum cleaner by kicking the shit out of it. He came back an hour later and his parents later paid for the things he broke.
>>98891478Eventually I stopped running D&D and started up a Deathwatch campaign. The PCs in that game as so overpowered as space marines that he joined that campaign and didn't have any problems.
>>98891426Actually that's one of the issues I have with 4E. Traditionally in D&D, and in most games in general, attack bonuses would eventually tilt in your favor vs enemy defenses unless enemies were specialized in defense, but that doesn't happen in 4E. I went through an entire 5 round combat without landing a single hit and it was gayer than a man train.
>>98881735>Class balanceStill not a thing to this day.
>>98891968>>98881735And neither should be tbf
>>98892313Nah, fuck that noise. Power shouldn't be in the purview of only a select number of classes nor by system mastery. When my players sit down at the table, all of them should feel involved and engaged with the system. It's why despite numerous tries with other systems, we all fall back to 4e. We're on our like 6th campaign now, party is level 7 and are currently dealing with a strange cult that appears to both be working with some giants as well as kidnapping people from in and around the Nentir Vale.
>>98892313I think the system needs to at least try to make things balanced and fun for every class. It needs to avoid the situation where you have 'class X is able to do everything the other class does, but better'. Every class needs to feel unique and important, as in, maybe you don't need EVERY class to be present on the group, but you need to be able to feel the difference between having and not having it on the group. Game needs to be fun no matter what class you pick, and part of things being fun is feeling like you are unique and useful to the group.
>>98892313Spoken like a RIFTS-Chad. In spirit, if not in fact. >>98892427>>98892464Most definitely not RIFTS-Chads.
>>98884585then you are the on looker5th ed.
>>98881519Because Skill Challenges already existed but instead of tweaking and improving those, we got ... what was it, five distinct errata over the years? They never worked and poisoned the well towards an otherwise effective solution to caster supremacy. Instead, we got ugly and RP-nonconducive spellcasting for everyone, a philosophy that pervades every fantasy RPG to this day.
>>98891954The PCs and enemy warriors should have higher ACs. Big monsters should have low ACs and tons of hit points. That way you actually feel like a little guy dodging a monstes big attacks and wearing it down with multiple slashes. If you fight another NPC, he should be bobbing and weaving and you have a tense duel of parries and dodges until one of you lands a bit, and then it feels like a hit. Not this bullshit we have now where everyone automatically hits in 5e.
>>98893904>Pre 4e>effective solution to caster supremacy
>>98890835>I don't understand why they were called "0-level spells"Because they are under 1st-level spells you fucking troglodyte.>It just makes intuitive sense that if the lower the spell level, the more often you can cast itWhich you can. That doesn't mean LITERALLY INFINITE, because even a simple spell takes up space.>>98890961>Vancian magic is shit in the first place.Actual brainlet.>some shitty novel series>just stapled into D&DActual ILLITERATE brainlet.>>98881126Literally none of this is true.4e was and will forever be shit.Should've been an adversarial boardgame.
>>98891954Attack bonuses do tilt in your favor in 4e. It's just that 4e has the threefold expectation of:>The party will actually use teamwork to stack bonuses.>The DM will use a variety of enemy roles, including those explicitly meant to have shit AC>The DM will not assume that the level system actually encourages level scaling everything to the PCsEXP budgeting for encounter building is pretty damn simple and versatile, with enemy types that are explicitly meant to have shit AC. Most fights SHOULD have a gaggle of lower-level shitters that are easy to kill (but can become a problem if left alone) or some vulnerable Artillery and Controllers.
>>98894367Not to the degree it traditionally did, at all.
>>98891285>stamina>agility>intellectThose aren't the names of the stats in 3.5, so I guess we're safe from AI conquering humanity for at least a little while longer.
>>98888825Get cantrip slots, each slot refills 1 hour after it is used and can be used for any cantrip chosen at the moment you use the slot1 slot at level 1At level 2 add 2 slots to total 3Then at level 3 add 3 slots to total 6 and continue this pattern
>>98888825That's literally the opposite of cool.
>>98888825>fighter melee attack 1 per 5 minutes>monk unarmed attack 1 per 5 minutes>while waiting, they are forced to use crossbowGreat design, retardo
Sleep should be a cantrip
>>98891954> Iwent through an entire 5 round combat without landing a single hitSkill issue.
>>98895940kek Would you adjust its power setting in anyway or just leave it as is?
>wizards NEED to have a magic autoattack because... uh... they just do okay!!!
>>98897872Because otherwise it's not fun.Not sure why you're complaining about it since 5e has infinite cantrips and it's "the greatest roleplaying game"
>>98897872>Wizards CAN'T have a magic autoattack because.. uh... they just can't okay!!!You don't have to be like this Anon. Just go play what you want instead of bitching about someone else's badwrongfun...You do play games, right Anon?
>>98882443Then either find a way to make genuine friends or kill yourself.
>>98886584>Fell's Five.This 4e was fucking awful at being an RPG. It was at best a reasonably replayable jumped up tactical skirmish wargame, which was so eager to throw out the bathwater that it chucked several babies right along with it. I hated 3.x with a passion, but it was better for the hobby than 4e ever was.But godDAMN if Fell's Five wasn't a perfect D&D comic, just in general. IDW knocked it out of the park, and I only wish it had gotten a longer run.
>>98893904Skill Challenges suffered because they tried to "one size fits all" all Skill Challenges into an "X successes before Y failures" complex skill check framework. That frame work works for things like a Rogue or Artificer disarming a standard monster equivalent trap while the rest of the party fights other enemies.Instead of various flavors of "X success Y failures" they could have actually come up with an actual variety if different skill challenge mechanics.
>>98898894>fucking awful at being an RPGEveryone say that but they can never explain it.>be me>playing 3e>meet an NPC that I want to convince to help the party>talk in character, then roll diplomacy>be me>playing 4e>meet an NPC that I want to convince to help the party>talk in character, then roll diplomacy>be me>playing 5e>meet an NPC that I want to convince to help the party>talk in character, then roll diplomacyNothing fucking changed out of combat between editions, I have no idea what you niggers are talking about when you insist that 4e was somehow different.
>>98899767Yeah because diplomacy is the only thing you ever do outside of combat, isn't it? No wonder you have no idea what an RPG is.
>>98899796And this kind of post is why I say>Everyone say that but they can never explain it.You could have explained it in your post. Give an example, like I gave my own example. But instead you acted like a faggot.I could go on if you want>be me>playing 3e>find a place I want to climb>roll climb>be me>playing 4e>find a place I want to climb>roll athletics>be me>playing 5e>find a place I want to climb>roll athletics
>>98891285>>98894864>Arcanist>Agility, StaminaYou're playing the WoW RPG, aren't you?
>>98894280Someone is having a melty kek
>>98899767>>98899808Crafts, Perform, Profession, noncombat magic that's GOOD.Literally the heart and soul of roleplaying...You don't know how joyful it is to Charm Person a barkeep.
>>98899835Eviler than necromancy. I have no idea how WotC we're able to justify necromancy being inherently evil while spells that strip away a person's consent is just neutral.
>>98899835Is really your entire complaint that 4e removed 3 barely used skills? Somehow that makes it "fucking awful at being an RPG"?There's tons of other RPGs that don't have those skills. D&D didn't even used to have skills at all before an optional rule added for B/X and AD&D.How come I don't see anyone saying "B/X is fucking awful at being an RPG"?Furthermore>Crafts4e has crafting for non-magical items, it's just not a skill.>professionthat's part of your background, as in, the actual "backgrounds" rule you can pick at character creation, not fluff.
>>98899835>Charm PersonD&D4e has non-combat charm spells. Glib Tongue, Words of Deceit, Words of Friendship. These can all be used to influence the mind of a barkeep.No idea why you think it doesn't.
>>98899835>I can't just play a tune on my lyre, I need to roll for it.>I can't just say I'm making a mundane item out of these materials when I have access to the right facilities. I need to roll for it.>I can't just use literally any of my other skills to perform a menial labor task in order to earn enough coin to get me lodging and a meal for a night, I need to roll a specific skill that is strictly for use doing that menial labor task instead.>I can't say I want to use a combat-spell in a non-hostile way to influence someone's attitude ever so slightly and maybe save a few coins on a mug of ale. I need to buy a scroll and copy it down into my spellbook so that I can burn a spell slot on it and thereby make myself just a little more useless for this day. But the barkeep totally gave me that free ale for it.Sometimes I wonder which edition really is more about rollplay than roleplay...
>>98897561Adjust of course.Back to AD&D levels that is
>>98899812Yes, I wanted to do an adventure there before Forever comes out, because I remember loving the lore from it back in the day. Originally, I wanted to link AI to the game to write descriptions of actions (like a creature turning unfriendly and throwing a fireball at you, adapted into prose by AI), but the rulebooks are actually pretty shit, so compared to something like warhammer RP and even ACKS, it really kills my motivation the further I get.I’ll still do at least one adventure.
>>98899835>roleplaying is skill sinks that don't do much and spellsFaggot.
>>98900792Maybe consider WWN? It's what I am currently considering for my own WoW game once I'm done with a PF1e game.
>>98890835Why do you think "zeroth level" means "unlimited uses"?
>>98891426That's obviously correct, yeah. Sorry you play bad games for retarded babies lol
>>98892313Incorrect.
>>98892916Retard, LOL
>>98897872Why did you put a class named Wizard in the game if you didn't want there to be a class in the game that only uses magic? You could have put a class in the game called Crossbow Guy That Very Occasionally Casts Spells, But Not Too Often Because Then The Game Might Be Fun, instead, if that's what you wanted to do.
>>98881126Tieflings as core raceYou know it's true
>>98901723I approved of both Tieflings and Dragonborn as PH1 Core. They filled much more interesting niches than Half Orcs or Gnomes, both of which had stagnated in presentation even after their light reworks for PH2.
>>98890961>copied wholesaleWould be interesting if it had been, but it wasn't.>>98890835>If they wanted them to be limited use, why didn't they just call them 1st level spells and increase the level of all the others by one?Thereby forcing the existing player base to re-memorise their existing knowledge of every single spell and forcing themselves to re-edit/rewrite every single spell description in every single module or accessory or splat where a spell level is mentioned and players having to mentally re-work the spell levels between newer and older printing of all those books instead of maintaining consistency by just slotting in a new level which didn't throw in all that extra work? Why would they save themselves all that effort and all the complaints from players?
>>98901509Salty martialcuck detected
>>98881126Every "homebrew fix" for 5e inevitably comes from a design decision in 4e, so I guess it has that.
>>98903868Pretty much demonstrates that 4e's issues were more presentation than mechanical flaws.
>>98905116Yes, everyone knows that.
