>Be Games Workshop.>Have your initial writers create backstory for the Chaos Gods that portray them as eldritch abominations with plenty of nuance and aspects to them.>Have your later writers discard the other aspects of the Chaos Gods and write their followers as Saturday morning villains.Of all the characters in Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the Chaos Gods suffer from flanderization the most. Especially Khorne since war isn't just about bloodshed and violence.
>>98866382Chaos can have nuance, and it can be Saturday morning villains. Chaos contains multitudes.
>>98866415True, but the nuanced part (and since the Chaos Gods do have other underused aspects) tends to be discarded in favor of flanderized Saturday Morning Villains when it comes to Chaos.Khorne and Slaanesh suffer from this a lot but the other two Chaos Gods (Nurgle and Tzeentch do have flanderization problems as well.
>>98866382I got a better one.Also, chaos drools, Imperium Rules.
>>98866382>>98866424I think you are really overestimating how "nuanced" they were presented since even in that time they did have some it was only a very brief mentioned out of pages describing them as overlly edgy versionf of Saturday morning cartoon villians
>>98866382The chaos gods were already flanderized bro they're a ripoff the the lords of higher worlds from Elric.
The chaos gods, as another anon mentioned, where ripped off from Elric novels. They morphed quickly though as a parody of the types of players who play GW games.Khorne = the rage quittersSlaneesh = the coomers who want to greenstuff boobs and dicks onto everything.Nurgle = the sweaty obese neckbeards who stink out the shopTzeentch = the tournament autists who constantly chase the next rule or update they can exploit for a win..
Is it possible for you to restate your complaint without using Ned Flanders as a verb?
>>98866787This would be funnier without the chaos runes, they’re redundant with the color-coding.
>>98866382Not exactly the same gripe but reasonably similar: I dislike how 'present' the gods in general have become. I prefer them as forces from the beyond, acting through their agents or vague miracles according to their domains, but always being left unseen and largely unfathomable. Not to say they can't have distinctive traits or an agenda, but I don't like the idea of them just straight up becoming characters. It's fine for them to act like people as part of in-universe myths, but the more they are treated like actual events the less I like it. Avatars are fine too, so long as they're distinct people acting as an embodiment or representative. Sadly for me, late WH/End Times had gods intervening directly time and time again, fighting and being defeated, evacuating people, possessing bodies, etc. Then by the time of Age of Sigmar they're just short of being the protagonists.40k doesn't really suffer much from this problem, though it kind of exists in a another form through Primarchs coming back and hogging the spotlight. However, at least in their case they were always characters in the world, and the traitor primarchs do fill the role as agents for their gods.
>>98866382I remember when the Chaos Gods were not 100% evilest evil, when they have positive traits since they were just a reflection of Mankind psyche, therefore capable of the best and worst things: >Khorne, god of honor and military camaraderie, patron of soldiers>Tzeentch, god of hope, innovation, evolution and progress, patron of scientists>Nurgle, god of life, growth, acceptance, patron of elders and garderners>Slaanesh, god of creativity, imagination, arts, patron of artists It's funny how GW and many "nufans" want to find something hellish about the Imperium because "muh complexity", but they can't or not want to find something "wholesome" about Chaos in the actual lore (aka, beyond memes).
>>98867509>It's funny how GW and many "nufans" want to find something hellish about the Imperium because "muh complexity", but they can't or not want to find something "wholesome" about Chaos in the actual lore (aka, beyond memes).Honestly it seems like way more of the opposite, where they try to justify every evil of the Imperium with the excuse that Chaos is "worse".
>>98866382You don't want nuance. You would have to read to get nuance and you clearly don't do that. All of the subtle tendrils and corruption is still there you just don't read any of the material. Instead deciding to be mad about fluff for a game you don't even play. Go read any of the Red Path or Eater of Worlds. I picked a random page from a random short in the series and here we have the legion aware of is decay and trying to maintain honour and loyalty while being blood thirsty corrupted souls. Whole series is littered with this sort of thing. All the books are. There's an entire series about Fabuis Bile and the different ways Slaanesh and choas effect people. You niggers just don't read. >>98867509>>98867952>The throw away bits from whfb from before you were even born >"lore" fake grog bullshit >mixed with /pol/ bullshit Whenever you have to type "honestly" we know you're being a liar.
>>98866382>Bot got trained on TVTL M A OOL
>>98866415People getting mad at the chaos gods not always being portrayed as super serious forget that the orcs exist and are the way they are.
>>98868339Yeah and orcs are the worst part of both 40K and FB and ruin the mood
>>98868367>ruin the moodThat's like being mad at Jedi for ruining the hard scifi setting you want star wars to be. fucking weirdo
>>98868367Orcs and Orks were there before chaos even if you want to pretend >muh nuance was only a thing of the past you fake grog.
>>98866382Remember when Khorne's bloodhounds would hunt down those who spill the blood of innocents in his name? Pepperidge farm remembers.
>>98867232Pretty sure he was referring to the geographical region in Belgium, not to the Simpsons character. Chaos gods are being flanderized, ie. made more gay over time just like the region of Flanders is becoming more Belgian, that is to say, becoming more gay over time.
>>98868290How am I being a liar?Sure the Black Library wanks itself over the tragedy of Chaos, but that's cheap Pathos.Meanwhile half the fandom would have you believe there is nothing wrong with complete Xenocide.
>>98867232...anon.I sincerely hope you are trolling. -10 faith in humanity/10 made me reply
>>98868647By knowingly being wrong and misrepresenting things to post gooner bait and /lpol/ shit. You can't even deal with direct evidence posted that contradicts your insane internal narrative.
>>98866382Sorry anon, the need to bend the knee to mother groups, moralizers and above all advertisers and credit card companies will continue rendering Chaos ever more sanitized, safe, inoffensive and sterile going forward.
>>98868800At least we can buy recasts of older modelsI'm currently planning a slaanesh army based on the 2002 models
>>98868754You sound like you would have a heart attack looking at a woman's knees
>>98868822I wonder how he feels about Lucius Loli-Daemon Host...
>>98868822>>98868845Nah, you just don't have any argument or point you just want to shit and piss and lie about being wrong.
>>98868754Moralfag plz go and stay go
>>98868923>so btfo you can't even keep up with the thread and have to repeat more lies lol
>>98868494Funnily enough, the orks (spelling deliberate; I feel that the fantasy ones aren't as affected) are a much better candidate for accusations of flanderising than the Dark Gods. Both by GW (post GorkaMorka especially) and the fanbase via the usual Chinese whispers.
>>98867509Cool! Could you tell me which page that is from picrel which supports this?
>>98868961Gorkamorka was for sure this interesting point where Ork aesthetic deign was my preferred mix of goofy and violent. Its still there, especially in the bomb squig, gretchin and blood axe sort of material but it does feel less worked in. There's still lots of that when I think about it like Orkamedies or Taktikus. The bit where he's sharking the imperial commander in Enemy of my Enemy by pushing around the tank models making engine and gun noises is some great stuff. There's this weird thing where people complaining about a lack of nuance just don't bother to look, which is amusing when one thinks about it for a minute.
>>98868985not him but page 7
>>98869042Well, fuck me, I'm wrong. I really should read those things more closely...
>>98866382Idiot of the East and its consequences have been a disaster for humanity
>>98869272But adorkable Slaanesh!
>>98868290Based Fabuis Bile mentioned!
>>98869272>Idiot of the East and its consequences have been a disaster for humanityDon't forget the femboy skitarii artist. Both of them have caused the fanbase to repeat the same jokes constantly and they've gotten stale.
>>98866382Chaos Gods have always been retarded.>the setting already has Gods that already occupy the emotional profile of their respective races but um aschually Chaos Gods are l'stronger and either killed or made the other Gods irrelevant even though spilling blood should make Khaine just as pleased as it does Khorne>Chaos is basically all powerful and there's nothing you can do to really beat them if you kill them they'll just go back to Chaos worlds and then come back and they're basically numberless BUT they also haven't won yet because...they just haven't okay?!>there's no good Chaos gods because the most powerful human emotions are all l'evil even though parents have an irrational love for their children and endless optimistic baseless reality denying hope is the most prevalent human emotion but there's no Chaos God representing that because...that would just be silly okay?!Who cares what writers do with the Chaos Gods. They've always been infantile poorly thought out world building.
>>98870086>the setting already has Gods that already occupy the emotional profile of their respective races but um aschually Chaos Gods are l'stronger and either killed or made the other Gods irrelevant even though spilling blood should make Khaine just as pleased as it does KhorneLiving emotion becoming gods was pretty unique and different pantheons warring with each other is rule of cool>Chaos is basically all powerful and there's nothing you can do to really beat them if you kill them they'll just go back to Chaos worlds and then come back and they're basically numberless BUT they also haven't won yet because...they just haven't okay?!Because the chaos gods ARE the players of warhammer and 40k. We have little dudes battle for our amusement like the gods do. If they 'win' the game ends like it does for us. They enjoy the game until its time for something new, like the end times of fantasy.>>there's no good Chaos gods because the most powerful human emotions are all l'evil even though parents have an irrational love for their children and endless optimistic baseless reality denying hope is the most prevalent human emotion but there's no Chaos God representing that because...that would just be silly okay?!Chaos gods are much weaker in fantasy than 40k theres lots of good gods in fantasy.40k is grimdark because humans are fallen work drones who are pretty evil at their heart. They're parents who love their children are so few that their emotional energy is overwhelmed by the emotions that fuel the big 4 and the many other minor gods. Because its grimdark
>>98870713why is fulgrim so zesty, bros
>>98866382This is another "Khorne should be honorable" secondary spergout isn't it
>>98870713>Because the chaos gods ARE the players of warhammer and 40k.And Khorne is the god of Tsundere!
>>98868512So is this like Nurgle is trying to get Khornholed and it’s taking over the metaplot? Or is this like when I started 6th grade and my math homework became more gay over time?
>>98866415Yes but both things should reinforce each other. A Khorne Berzerker roaring "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD" in absolute triumph over the corpses of orphans he just slaughtered without a hint of irony or shame is both horrifying and funny. I think GW and those hacks at BL dont understand that Warhammer, both Fantasy and 40k, is supposed to be funny too, not just grimderp. In fact, the grim darkness is the source of the humor. Very British.
>>98870713Only Angron looks cool of those. Snek Fulgirm is just fucking awful. This weird mothman Mortarion too. Magnus looks kinda cool, but idk I think he should just be like normal looking and stuff, because he was kinda tricked into becoming evil and fucking hates Tzeentch.
>>98866824No you don't understand!40K is an extremely well written setting without flaws! It was never cartoonish! It was always serious!
>>98866382How much of this "flanderization" is a result of the memes people use to explain and understand the game and it's lore and has become defacto cannon in some sense?
>>98870736He has to be the example his legion lives up to.>>98872661So does Mortarian. The only other "lamentable" fallen Primarch would be Angron but Lorgar sold his soul to Khorn against his will.
>>98869042>chaos powers are the combined souls of the dead >they're really bad>but there's some good in them tooI don't see how this makes them gods and patrons of good things. These are very short sentences that unsurprisingly disappear as soon as the game and its setting solidifies.Warhammer Fantasy was much better for having gods that outnumbered the chaos gods and provided a canvas to paint aspects of humanity onto. 40K only has the unofficial Star Child and Khaine (aka elf Khorne) to look to, and no, the other two elf gods aren't real, clown elves in space always throw fans of the setting for a loop and the crying goddess doesn't have any minis.
>>98873502>Erebus Heresy nuloreDont care.
>>98873524>40K only has the unofficial Star Child and Khaine>this git doesn't know about Gork & Mork The tau one the humans accidentally made too.
Reminder the gods fear Archaon, a regular human more than they do the Emperor.
>>98873568No one gives a shit if you care grampa.
>>98868290Fehervari also writes Chaos very well.
>>98873591Oh yeah, the orcs, that serious faction that can't tell which god is which. Do they still have the foot of gomork spell?>tauA literally who cares Vishnu to tell indians this is their faction please buy.
>>98873596>Reminder the gods from the different setting fear this character from a different setting more than they do the character from the different setting
>>98873632>it only counts when I want it to! We know you're gay but that you need to announce it so much is just sad.
>>98873696Fantasy and 40k are part of the same multiverse, with the chaos gods being the same in each.
>>98873754>they are the samethat is something GW just claims is the cases while contradicting it multiple times, the gods and daemons can end up having different personalities despite being supposedly the same character, in other words GWs words are worthless since they don't actually back it up so you might as well treat it as a completely different setting with very similiar ideas
>>98873754Fan theory just like Mallus being a feudal world in the Imperium.
>>98873754>multiverse
>>98873791we also have stuff like the Elvish Gods overcoming Slaanesh, which has some laughable implications given it means that Slaanesh is so weak that the gods of a single planet can beat him
>>98870713>Living emotion becoming gods was pretty uniqueno it's not. i've seen the trope done time and time again. there are even ancient pagan religions that use it kek
>>98874806>Elvish GodsActually, why do the Elves get 50 different gods while the Eldar are stuck with like six?
>>98874858I think the Eldar also have the same amount, its just GW just really hates them which by extension means they barely get any lore especially in regards to shit before the fall and what their gods were up to (plus it would also show the previously mentioned claimed of Fantasy and 40k being connected via the warp is bs since what little we do know about Eldar gods has some differences between them and Elf gods)
I stopped paying attention to gw when I came to the conclusion that thousand sons have done more damage to tzeentch than the other way around
>>98874954yeah, you're probably right. honestly though, stuff like this is why despite being an an entire galaxy compared to Fantasy's single planet 40k still somehow manages to make itself feel smaller in scope
>>98874858Honestly? Probably because the fantasy Elven races are (were?) living cultures. It was easy and seductive to just keep expanding a pantheon (ask any world building thread), especially over the length of time they had. Also, don't underestimate the power of writing WFRP, it would have been a goldmine for the creative juices; see how Marienburg was built from nothing over the course of a few WD articles, and Middenheim from one or two campaign books.40k, on the other hand, starts with "the elf gods are dead"; there's not really a lot to play with there. And as GW moved on from the likes of Waaagh! The Orks or a 40k WFRP, they never got that in-depth exploration.
>>98874986uhm, yeah? Just as planned!
very subtlevery nuanced
>>98876262>Orcs and Goblins worshiping Chaos>Half-OrcsDamn this must be old.
>>98866382>wtf the CHAOS GODS don't behave in a consistent or easily understood manner!!!!Damn, I wonder why they're called the Chaos Gods?
>>98874986The redpill about Tzeentch is that if he really wanted to win the Great Game he would have done so before it ever started. He specifically sabotages himself even more than the other gods because the only way for change to keep happening is for the game to continue. It's why him breaking his own staff when the other three gods ganged up on him was all part of his plan from the start - he was originally the most powerful god, being the essence of change and the Warp itself being a domain of perpetual change. But that would have made the game too easy for him since he's not just the most powerful by default, he's also the cleverest.
>>98866382That's what happens when your original creatives have to hand the torch to downstream latecomers whose understanding of the ip is as consumers and inevitably boil it down to pastiche.
>>98876464>>98876468Why does Warhammer have such a low IQ fanbase?
>Flanderization Can you zoomers use proper english?
>>98876568>zoomers>proper englishWell well well, if it isn't the pot calling the kettle a nigger.
>>98876262>He looks with particular favour upon those who take the lives of their friends and alliesBut this is done so honourably! Khorne is a multi-faceted god!>>98876568It'd be funny if that word predates zoomers. Because it's not their word, since it refers to an existing word and common culture, not a black word made up on the spot, sometimes an existing word or words given new meaning, for real for real.
>>98873456One problem is that 40k is old enough to be at that point where the kids who grew up consuming the memes and somewhat internalising them are now mid- to senior-level writing staff.
>>98873502Such a cool pic.Here's another one from the same artist I believe.
>>98873591No one gives a shit about Gork & Mork
>>98879970Same shit has happened to other games and franchises. 49k just gets more shit for it as setting because it is meant to be stagnant but it almost never gets anything all that interesting out of it.
>>98880175>>98880192These are fine but I feel fuck all when I look at them.
HH and 5e did massive damage to 40k that has only gotten worse with time. HH ironically did as much lasting damage as the in universe HH did to the imperium
>>98876262"The only way to gain favour with him is by killing - enemies or friends, all the dead are equal in the eyes of Khorne. The only way to incur his displeasure is by not killing."It is entirely possible to kill, and kill in large numbers, while being honourable even justified but the key is that Khorne doesn't care.Seems some people confused or put too much emphasis on followers believing they are honourable/just (the stories of Khorne worship coming out of Knightly Orders, Duelists, etc...) and attached it to Khorne himself but it is possible to have nuance or at least variation within those who worship him.
>>98870086man you really didn't grasp the concept well enough to be so ranty. you sound off like some standard newly joined space marine player who somehow self injects his belief system into another which right at the doorstep tells you to accept that your standards do not convert well into this setting. to give you an example, you write >here's nothing you can do to really beat them if you kill them they'll just go back to Chaos worlds and then come back and they're basically numberless BUT they also haven't won yet because...they just haven't okay?!just to give you a few headers. self destructive nature of chaos. where does that self destructiveness come from. pro tip: it's not just as a "deus ex machina". chaos is a reflection. this setting is all about violence and war. yes there are parents with unending love for their sibling. do i really have to spell out which of the four major chaos gods reflects that behaviour upon his followers? second header regarding your implicative "there is no reason why chaos hasn't "won" yet" what do you think winning means for the chaos powers? total death of any being? then why are sometimes followers who have clearly achieved more than other followers of the same god not elevated to godhood? do you think the four major powers simply forgot about ahriman, typhus, kharn and lucius? or do you think all those nameless daemonprinces have achieved more than them? there is a reason why they haven't been elevated albeit their service has more than once likely qualified them for it. you are looking at the "end goal" of the chaos powers from a purely human perspective of "i win when everyone else is destroyed". that is not the perspective of any of the major chaos powers. it's actually almost the opposite. they are fueled by emotion. they wish for the state which allows them to almost harvest that emotion the most. total heat death of the universe is not that state.
I think the lore and enthusiasm attached to GW is way bigger than the actual company.The flanderization is because its easier for GW to sell a profitable product (TM).Its just that. What i don't understand is why the f. does GW keep not releasing a mono-god box or sprue for marines and IG.
>>98866382I was surprised that these guys who do cheap franchise cash-in FPS games knew about Tzeentch being so closely tied to fire (pic related). Normally most people these days just see Tzeentch as a bird brained mollusk with an Egypt theme who is nothing but crystals, books, and pretty aqua wisps for lights.So qualities that aren't well known anymore aren't entirely forgotten by game developers at least. Then again players were sour against Tzeentch Chaos Warriors even though they are just rubric vikings.
>>98876468wow he's literally me fr fr
>>98868647>there is nothing wrong with complete Xenocide.Good... Good...
>>98885387TOO POWERFUL!!!
>>98879451>But this is done so honourably! Khorne is a multi-faceted god!In second edition fantasy, Khorne was multi-faceted. The facets could even operate independently as individual minor chaos gods. Only one gave a damn about chivalry.
>>98880788How so? Not that I disagree, but I checked out of the series very early
>>98888600All of the plot progression, marine wank, and primarch wank really started there. Also started the trend of retconning shit for no reason
>>98880688
>>98866382for me, it's them trying to make slaanesh into anything other than a sex godbecause that's problematic now
The Chaos Gods having nuisance is just a coping method of chaosfags to pretend to be deeper than they really are.Khorne, for example, supposedly being honorable while beheading women and children makes sense, sure, of course.
>>98894253Slaanesh was never a sex god or Daemonettes and Keepers would look more like Draenei or Tieflings or generally semen demons rather than whatever the fuck GW is going for with their designs.
>>98895550But she should be a sex god. There really is no good reason for her to be anything else. Sexuality is one of the most overpowering and all-consuming aspects of biological life, and the cultural, emotional, and spiritual energy produced by it alone should vastly outshine every other form of excess and pleasure Slaanesh feeds off combined
>>98876468>The redpill about Tzeentch is that if he really wanted to win the Great Game he would have done so before it ever startedHe could never win the great game because he’s an archetypal mass of warp energy rather than a truly conscious being, a representation of the emotions and thoughts of the material world. The other chaos gods are equal in this also, and just as scheming will never erase bloodlust or pleasure or decay or any other emotion, just change when and where it manifests, Tzeench can never defeat the other three, and nor could they defeat him. Don’t fall for chaos propaganda and pretend that these are actual thinking beings with genuine agendas rather than things that simply exist to reflect archetypes present in the mortal realm
>>98894253>>98895653Bro, his first and lowest ring is greed, this was long before they tried to squat him for Age of Sigmar. He isn't just about extreme sensations but also about desires.
Remember, fantasy >>> POWER GAP >>> 40K >>> POWER GAP X10 >>> Age of Shitmar
