I've never played GUMSHOE, is it good at its stated goal (facilitating investigative play) or is it a gimmick?Also Delta Green thread.
>>98835268I played a few sessions of it a decade ago and it seemed decent at it, but I have a shitass memory so I can't remember details.
>>98835268I considered running fall of delta green because I'm doing a campaign starting in 1969 but reading the rules I found the whole idea of gumshoe to be pretty stupid. The investigative part was trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist if you're not a retarded GM running/creating bad scenarios, and the rest of the rules didn't seem particularly great anyway. I ended up running regular Delta Green.
>>98835268Fall of DG has some nice bits in it, but Gumshoe is worthless. Just run anything out of Fall with the Misery Engine like the rest of DG.
>>98839003I played in a Fall of Delta Green one-shot, but my gm was just using the ruleset, not the setting.
>>98835268I read the Esoterrorists PDF (the first game that used Gumshoe) and it seemed to demand an extremely rigid structure for games where there's a deterministic daisy-chain of clues that you discover by using the correct investigative skill on the correct object and which lead you to the next scene where you do the same, and so on. It seems quite unnatural and boring to me, and a hell of a lot of trouble to go through to solve a problem I have never encountered in an actual game. In fact, like >>98839003 said, Gumshoe system seems to be a solution to a problem that's largely fictional.
>>98835268I haven't played fall of DG, but I have played some Nights Black Agents, Trail of Cthulhu, and Swords of the Serpentine, so I'll be a dissenting voice and say I like gumshoe. I've sort of moved away from games like that, but the general point spend mechanics are cool, and a lot of the ways you can spend investigative points for things are also fun. The tactics and strategy meta of the game can be rewarding. I think a lot of the books could do a better job and describing how investigative spends actually work, it seems like a lot of people still think "spend point to get clue" when it isn't supposed to work like that. But I like it, and my understanding is that Fall uses a lot of the extras that Nights Black Agents introduced, and I think thats probably the best implementation of the system. And, even if you don't like the system and just want to use the agents handbook, FoDG was written by Ken Hite, so you know it's a good guide to the weird, fucked up Cthulhu 60s.
>>98841139It says something about how the game presents itself that this ends up being the read most people get of it, but it's absolutely no different than prepping an investigative scenario for a game like Call of Cthulhu, it's just that the players will never miss a clue they could get if they are in a place where a skill could get a clue.And gating information behind skills rolls and games stalling out because of it is absolutely a real problem that people talk about all the fucking time.
I just don't get the whole idea of GUMSHOE. "Give the players the key clues!" Well then what's the point of investigating?
>>98842276You don't just hand out clues at the beginning of the session with zero contacts. They still have to investigate scenes, follow up on sources, interview suspects, etc. it's just that, at the end of whatever action they're taking, they'll get a relevant piece of information, without having to roll. What is hard for you to understand about this?
>>98841189>>98841200I've always been interested in it just because the settings sound cool as hell, but I've never gotten to dig into the books because my gaming group hasn't been stable enough to bother.
>>98842337Fear Itself lends itself pretty well to one shots, and the system is pretty dead simple to explain.
>>98842276GUMSHOE's thesis is that the fun part of an investigation isn't obtaining clues, it's piecing the clues together to draw a conclusion. Thus there's no reason to gatekeep clues behind skill rolls.That said, the GUMSHOE system itself kind of blows so just take the above idea and run with it in your system of choice
>>98842276>>98846356Honestly if your players are "locked" behind failed skill rolls for obtaining clues, you aren't GMing well.Delta Green already addresses this by allowing characters with a decent enough skill to auto succeed at stuff. Instead of rolling a Forensics test, just give them the main info to keep the investigation going, and keep expanded details behind a successful roll.
>>98846388>Delta Green already addresses this by allowing characters with a decent enough skill to auto succeed at stuff. Instead of rolling a Forensics test, just give them the main info to keep the investigation goingThis is literally how gumshoe does it as well. In fact, I believe the designers of DG were directly inspired by gumshoe.
>>98846686Nah, DG is way older. Gumshoe's idea is that the investigative skills are fuel the players spend to have more agency in the collecting clues thing. And yes, the "have clearer clues" thing as well.I think it doesn't work when you think COC because a whole lot of COC scenarioes are, well, REALLY simple in their mistery part: the players don't really have to think much about who did it and what for. It's more about survival.
I heard Delta green was good for modern day call of cthulu play, if you wanted to play something else besides a secret agent, would that be an option or should I look into other modern day supplements?
>>98846794No, Delta Green as a ruleset, not just a setting book for call of cthulhu, came out in 2016. The first gumshoe game came out ten years before that. You do not need to spend points to get clues in a gumshoe game. If you have a point in an investigative ability, and you are in a scene where that investigative ability applies, you get the clue. Point spends offer benefits above and beyond that. The developers of DG have explicitly said they used gumshoe as inspiration, and Ken Hite, one of the most prolific gumshoe writers, worked on DG.As to your second point, that depends wildly on the scenario and the keeper running the game. The Haunting is almost entirely mystery, for example, and that's the most recommend CoC introductory game of all time. If ever there was a standard, it'd be that.
>>98849246Ah, if you meant the stand alone book, fair enough.>You do not need to spend points to get clues in a gumshoe game.True of course, at least for Core clues. But THAT isn't generally what puzzles people, so I assumed it was the "why do I have points to spend?" problem.>>98848491FODG or og DG?
>>98850844>But THAT isn't generally what puzzles peopleThe thing I see constantly meme'd is "game where you spend points to get clues." And >>98846388 seems pretty confused by it.>>98850844
>>98835268The only incarnation of Gumshoe I've played was Trail of Cthulhu. The whole "let the players get the crucial clues automatically" thing worked decent enough I, although I never found this to be that big of a problem when running investigative scenarios anywayThe whole rest of the system felt just kinda clunky and/or underwhelming though. Upgrading your investigative skills barely serves any function since you don't even roll for them, while all of the non-investigative skills are very simplistic and just kinda there in how they work. tl;dr;. it works well, but it's not a particularly fun, satisfying or interesting system
>>98851288>Upgrading your investigative skills barely serves any functionThe rulebook says as much, you're generally not wanting any 3+ investigative skill.
>>98851288>>98851411Even then, there are certain investigative skills that can be spent on temporary, situational general ability pools, like Architecture to get points escape a haunted house, or outdoorsman to be able to sneak through the woods.
>>98842276You still have to do something to get the clues. It just solves the classic RPG problem of."I search for clue X way". "Okay make X roll". "I fail". Now that essential clue is lost and the mystery stalls.Additionally, the interesting part of a mystery is assembling the clues.
>>98851446Not that I remember.
>>98851459I think the key thing that people don't realize is that Gumshoe is a 20 year old system and a lot of the ideas that when into the design have kind of been incorporated into most investigative gming advice by now.
>>98851467Yes, this is part of the system.
>>98851479Care for a book reference?
>>98851511It's in Night Black Agents and Swords of the Serpentine, I don't know which book it originated in, but I've heard it used extensively in trail of Cthulhu actual plays, I assumed it was from there.
Generally, would anyone of you guys even get together and do a /tg/ Delta Green game campaign together or you all just in your physical groups or whatever?
>>98851754It sounds like a cool idea to one day especially that I had very little opportunity to play DG so far, but I have like 3 other campaigns ongoing at the momentAlso, I'm always a bit anxious about my English when I consider doing online play
>>98853523>I'm always a bit anxious about my English when I consider doing online playWe've got a Russian guy in our Curse of Strahd and everyone is pretty understanding when he has to pause and ask if this or that is the right word. Besides, his accent fits right in Barovia anyway.
>>98851754I haven't had the chance to play irl for at least 10 years. Besides my permanent online group my modus operandi for finding players is usually make a post on the gamefinder thread here => get zero useful replies => make a listing on roll20 => get players immediately and play.
>>98835268Just use the Delta Green lore with Unknown Armies 1e. There's even conversion notes for it from the old UA Mailing List archives.
>>98861175NTA, but can you post a link?
>>98835268BRP with Cthulhu 90s is also great for Delta Green.Just remember to use a generic sheet and keep Sanity off of it. & track it behind the screen
>>98835268nuPelgrane is pretty much on par with nuChaosium when it comes to wearing a skinsuit of a once good publishing house.Which is a shame, as the old Dying Earth RPG they put out a quarter of a century ago was great.
>>98868995How do you figure? They still put out quality product, although at a much slower rate. Swords of the Serpentine is dope as hell, and the new Fear Itself/Ocean Game/Unremitting horror releases look good. 13th age 2e is something that I have zero interest in, but from what Ive heard of the people that *do* give a shit about it, it sounds like a well designed game that accomplished exactly what it set out to do.
>>98869071Yeah, it really was a shame that the Dying Earth RPG was released at such a slower rate, oldPelgrane could have had something truly underrated if they were able to get more product to market.Its a shame how much they dropped off after 2005
>>98869071Also TOC 2 is solid, and yes, needed update on the corebook.Didn't have the chance to try one-on-one or the King in Yellow version of Gumshoe.Personally I'd like Hite just to give us his historical notes for playing Sword of the Serpentine in actual(ish) Venice but that's just me.
>>98870608Thats like comparing FATAL to Synnibarr
>>98874044What does that even mean
>>98874235Who knows
having seen it in action you really do need the players to be willing to commit to the fiction of the play session when using gumshoe things brake down pretty fast when they cant.
>>98854939>Besides, his accent fits right in Barovia anywaymirin the immersion
What is Delta Green?
>>98899069A miserable little pile of secrets
>>98835268It's got some good but the rolls just don't work at my tablesEverything is either too easy or Agents run out of point in the first few hours at the table, no in between and often both at the same time.>The investigation clue points part is great for new players getting them in the mood to investigate>The hp systems are edging on convoluted and their presentation on the sheet just looks like absolute shit making it so much worse; but, it does seem to work for my players, they take going into the negative seriously>The career style Chargen is ok too.
>>98899222Pretty sure that's Night's Black Agents.
>>98851754Just D&D here
