"Big Choppa" EditionPrevious Thread: >>98695419Check out here for useful links and a catalogue of relevant miniatures retailers:https://pastebin.com/nnNqqFLnThe Rogue Trader magazine article compilation:https://mega.nz/file/C4oSnArA#sA2O_7V6OnhZCOLCf0Sba1KW_wao3pZvc6IUmlHvpsk
>>98834037>they were allowed to do it if you ignored the ruleslol
>>98834895NTAYRT but, yeah?Jervis Johnson et al spent most White Dwarfs saying "these rules are not the bible, they are a groundwork for you and your friends to make games from"I spent most of 4th playing with some bastardised terrain rules because nobody at our GW actually looked at the differences from 3rd that hard.>Warhammer 40,000 may be somewhat different to any other game you have played. Above all, it’s important to remember that the rules are just the framework to support an enjoyable game. Whether a battle ends in victory or defeat, your goal should always be to enjoy the journey. What’s more, Warhammer 40,000 calls on a lot from you, the player. Your responsibility isn’t just to follow the rules, it’s also to add your own ideas, drama and creativity to the game. Much of the appeal of this game lies in the freedom and open-endedness that this allows; it is in this spirit that the rules have been written.
>>98834895I mean the other anon mentions a few things like Terminators not having bionics in 3rd, but completely ignored the fact it was errated some time later.Funniest thing is that new recruit took the terminator errata and give them the 5++ but ignored the bionics change. So I'm starting to think anon just took the base codex or just looked up at new recruit.Also that anon is correct >>98835372 3rd/4th was mostly guidelines, specially 3rd that was trying to consolidate 2nd into a less of a mess (failing spectacularly since rules are once again spread everywhere)
>>98834014I was looking at my old lists I could not remember why my 3rd list didn't have any Invulnerable save and my later list everyone that could have it had oneI had honestly forgotten about my Canoness with 2+ save just bogging down units with her miracle 2++ save
Has anyone made an unofficial 3D sculpt of the 2nd edition card bunker from White Dwarf?
>>98836934Dr.Spork
>>98836948It's even free! Thanks!
>>98837143>>98836948Dr. spork is a wonderful fella. Don't hesitate to also get his paid files if you like em.
>>98834895Duh, of course we ignored the few regressive changes like that.Rules explicitly allowed a simple weapon option. Errata arrives and arbitrarily takes that weapon option away. People had already modeled and painted their scouts and used them for years. Nobody was going to be told by GW that their sniper squad had to be commanded by a sergeant with a pistol lol.We weren't slaves to fashion like modern cum-guzzling meta-chasing gen-z morons.I bet you never looked at the last section of the rulebook and saw the optional rule for voluntarily falling back from combat?
>>98835742Of all the balance changes made to 3rd, the terminators getting a 5++ save was probably the most important. Made a huge difference to a lot of marine armies.
>>98839895That errata to the scouts didn't changed anything, it just clarified the rules as already written.
>>98840160I have no idea how that question even happen.Outside of Battle Reports randomly having sarges with bolt pistol and CCW while everyone else had snipers.I mean nothing in the rules prevent you from doing that, but it is questionable to have the squad leader with CCW while everyone else had a sniper
>>98840160>>98840209I can see the confusion, but the Tactical Squad for example is a lot clearer. Excuse the scribd pdf I'm using at work.
>>98840370On a side note, one thing I did not remember is that for some reason the scout squad gives the sarge their own stat line, meanwhile everything else only does it for the veteran sarge
>>98840209>I have no idea how that question even happen.The metal Third Edition Scout Sergeant came with a bolt pistol and a chainsword. There were two different metal scout models with sniper rifles. All the other models had things like shotguns, boltguns, or pistols and stabbas - plus one each of heavy bolter and rokkit chukka.If the studio army painted up for battle reports only had that one sergeant model ready to be photographed, then maybe that's what they had to go with rather than try to convert a model and have a bunch of readers write in asking where they could get that cool new model that no one had ever seen before.
>>98840383Presumably a holdover from 2e that didn't get cleaned up fully when they gave scouts the same statline as full marines.
>>98840393GW did kitbashes all the time, they even put it in their books outside of the hobby section. Like the storm giant captain with a chainsword or the entire black templars shown being space wolf models without the wolf stuff
>>98840444>black templars shown being space wolf models without the wolf stuffProofs?
>>98840393The battlw reports had a sergeant with a sniper rifle even though it was against the rules.
>>98840453Armageddon codex they are wolf, assault squad and random bits from metal kits.Mostly because the assault squads kits during that time did not have meltaguns, and the BT squad has the plastic space wolf one.
Is 4th Edition welcome here?
>>98841652Fantasy, yeah.
>>98835372Older models look so much better, even retro new ones look better than most stuff GW put out
>>98840444>the entire black templars shownlol its two picture in the entire Armageddon codex dude. Most of those are just assault and tactical marines. The black templars most 3rd edition players saw were necessarily the base tactical marines in the starter box.
>>98840458Read the book nigger. That was the codex upon release. Got changed later on.
>>98843732Read it yourself, and read the thread.
>>98843732>>98844344The fucking codex, AT RELEASE, said they could (left in the picture), and then the FAQ said those very same battle reports were WRONG.
>>98846505couldn't* fucking autocorrect
>>98846507So can a Sgt take gear or not?
>>98846597Unit entry in the codex says the sergeant can take bolters / shotguns / sniper rifles. "Any models in the unit, etc" This was later FAQ'd away, apparently.Decide what to do about it in your own gaming group. Otherwise: avoid the arguments and take a veteran sergeant with a combi-weapon or something cool.
>>98846505Specific rules in unit entries override general rules in codices, which in turn take precedence over rulebook rules. That's been the hierarchy since fucking Rogue Trader, you disingenuous subhuman, and until the FAQ the unit entry for Scouts said any model in the unit could upgrade, end of, period.I don't care if they "intended" it, I don't care if they liked it, I don't care that they decided to take it away: as published, the codex permitted Scout Sergeants to take equipment, as evidenced by the fact that fucking GW Studio employees used the unit that way in official battle reports in fucking WD.
>>98847829The most hilarious part about this argument is the 4th ed codex. As they say: the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. An then the Lord giveth back again.Models and fun are what count. Rules are approximations of balance, and the designers of the game explicitly used to tell us all to change the rules ourselves if we didn't like anything.
>>98848095Derp. Forgot the image.
I've been going through old Codexes and man, GW sucks at writing rules. How the fuck can a book be so full of glaring internal balance issues? For most of the issues, you don't even need to playtest things, you just need to think about things for 5 fucking seconds.
>>98848577These games have always been dogshit, but we love them for other reasons. For myself, and a hell of a lot of other people, it comes down to cool looking models, an amazingly atmospheric art direction, and a setting that grabbed my imagination and refused to let go. If it didn't have that going for it, it would have gone nowhere.Now, what've you lot working on lately? I'm painting a space marine captain and will hopefully be having a game of 40k 2nd soon.
>>98847829>SpecificKey word, you illiterate moron.The FAQ that spells it out has been posted multiple times. Fucking read it.
>>98848577It's more forgivable the further back you go in my opinion.The closer you get to Rogue Traders sandbox rules for creating scenarios the less balance mattered.Of course when the main type of game became playing against strangers either in clubs or at tournaments balance should have taken the front seat and they constantly (and at times deliberately to sell more models) fuck that up.
>>98847829Christ, I bet you're the sort who claimed 4th ed Terminators could Sweeping Advance because the unit entry doesn't say that they have Terminator armour (which is what prevents Sweeping Advances).
>>98848577>so full of glaring internal balance issues?What did you find? Some of it is a notable difference in era in terms of how people played games, some is memes regurgitated up to now, some was missing an obvious problem. Usually people who are obsessed with imba are retards who think tabletop companies have playtesting divisions like /v/ would.
I've heard people say that the earlier editions of fantasy were more like an RPG than a modern wargame, but when I've actually read up on the rules I don't really see any of that. What do people mean when they say that stuff and at what point did it become not an RPG anymore?
>>9885034799% of it is just people thinking that having a GM makes it an RPG.
>>98849172>The closer you get to Rogue Traders sandbox rules for creating scenarios the less balance mattered.Internal Balance always matters, because if I can spend 5 Minutes drunk off my ass reading through the book and immediately identify which choices are cheaper and better than their alternatives, then someone fucked up.
>>98850519>>98849810
Fuck all that shit. If you're playing 4th or earlier 40k these days you're not playing to win are you.Just pick miniatures you want, that you think suit your army.
>>98850734>that one confused slaan just here to fight warp daemons >lotus pod alien worlds Nice. Not sure I'm brave enough to use my dildo collection as eldar terrain though.
>>98849810NTAYRT but I'll always fondly remember Chaplains just being better than captains in every single regard in 4th, because apparantly Furious Charge, a 4+ Forcefield, a power Weapon, and Fearless is worth about 15 points. And they give you access to a better Command Squad too.
Sup grogs, I'm an indecisive faggot, so you'll have to help me come up with a color scheme for the Cities of Death boxes I sniped off ebay. Basic gray feels to boring.Post some retro City Terrain.
>>98851302That's the Lead & Steel event miniature Slann Pirate iirc
>>98850417>>98850347Have you never heard of narrative wargames?Probably the majority of historical wargaming is based on this. Replaying specific battles, what-if scenarios, asymmetric victory conditions...etc...Which also leads into >>98848577>>98850519Balance doesn't matter if you aren't playing a game like a competitive sport. And even if you were to just play chess with your miniatures you would still have "white goes first" to complain about.
>>98852938Chaplins with the 4th codex were great, it was 25 pts but still undervalued comparatively to the Captain's ability. An Iron Halo and power weapon are 40. They changed quite a bit from 3rd to 4th in terms of capacity, previously being limited to 2 wound models. I think they ended up boxing in their design space with what the "basic" leaders could even do while trying to keep it simple. Something where they get to reroll or chose mission table options would have been good but I suspect open up more problems than it solves.
>>98853132A lot of the "Warhammer used to be more of an RPG" claims are pretty much what you say. It's not that the rules had RPG elements, but rather that wargaming in general was a lot more interested in narrative and interactivity. Random tables and open ended army building included.The line between Wargames and RPGs wasn't also as defined as it is today; hence people also saying "early RPGs played a bit like wargames". (Which makes sense as DnD was born from a wargame in the first place).There also wasn't much of a competitive scene as we see it today, there were tournaments, but modern things such as math hammer, netlists and generally trying to algorithmically optimise gameplay like it was an esport were completely unseen. Pitched battles were more of a casual thing, meant for newer players or faster gameplay, with scenario play being the meat and potatoes for most gamers.
What chapter should I paint my firstborn space marines?
>>98857633The table of contents.
>>98857633>Firstborn Nice to see this general getting some tourism this time of the year!
>>98857633>2026 year of our lord>using the slave names of GWUsing ™ names should result in permanent ban from the internet
We've survived again.What's on your /grog/ horizon? I'm painting random sci-fi stuff at the moment for Necromunda type games
>>98854305It's also - pardon my French - kinda bullshit. Netlisting metatwats always used crude, simplistic mathhammer to dismiss ~80% of any codex or army book out of hand as "worthless" when in reality most of the time it was just marginally less points efficient and a player who chose models based on what looked cool and what fluff they liked who then took the time to learn their army well would piss all over some seething WAACoid who spammed nothing but 5 man lasplas or whatever.Not to mention that stuff that looks "bad" in isolation can actually perform a really pivotal role in an overall balanced list that enables other things to do their jobs better.Honestly the only times I think you could honestly, sincerely say that GW games were *broken* were a few of the wargear/magic item/character combos during the Herohammer period, and 7th Edition WHFB's army books where there were legitimately a handful of armies that you might as well not even bother playing the game against them their victory was such a foregone conclusion.
>>98857982>>98858085Not to play defence for James here but what do you call the smaller scale marines?
>>98862752not them but, Space Marines and then the new stuff I call Primarines, not that I talk about them IRL much
>>98862752I don't own any, as I dropped modem 40k in early 8th edition, but I also call em primarines, numarines or outright newer models.
>>98862752I just call them space marines. The few times that I play an edition with them in it (I do play 8th out of the indexes a couple of times a year, although nothing out of the codices and later) it is easy enough to specify if one means "Primaris Marines", with Space Marines working as the default form and the form specifying all models pre-8th edition.
>>98862752Space marines.
>Christmas 1998>4 year old me can't sleep>hear footsteps from the hallway>rustling under the christmas tree>wait while holding your breath>silence>get up and tiptoe into the hallway>two large red felt sacks under the tree>open one of them>see pic related>no idea what the fuck did I just see>go back to bed with head full off grimdark I still got the box and the imaginary stuck with me forever. So what got you into this thing?
>>98862752Space marines.The newer stuff usually gets called a slur of some kind like Primaritards, slopmarines, primaris marines, consumer marines, etc.
>>98863185My third world ass was on a vacation trip to the US and we stumble upon a game store in washington dc that had a diorama with 40k models.I finally found a store in my country by the tail end of 3rd like just before the eye of terror campaign. Said store had like 8 tables all with a different theme, one was a mountain range, other a city with a canal in the middle and bridges, jungle, dessert, grasslands, etc.
>>98863185Kid brought the old Citadel Miniatures catalog on the School Bus during a field trip. He told me there was a game attached, I just thought Orcs and Chaos Dwarfs looked cool
>>98863185Started with space crusade myself. While as a kid I played only 3rd and 4th eds, I saw the colorful white dwarfs of 2nd ed era on my local game shop. Golf course field, styrofoam cacti and goblin green bases is where its at for me. I exclusively play 2nd now 30 years later.
>>98863185>So what got you into this thing?Years before the dawn of the Dark Age of Technology, my favourite game was Battletech.We used to stomp our big stomp robots around at a small FLGS in Wichita Falls called Bryan's Legacy. The owner was into historicals, so he had a couple of big tables with green mats set up for miniatures games that didn't use boards or hex-maps like Battletech. Some of the games I saw played there were Rogue Trader, and I became fascinated by the game and its aesthetic. It didn't take long to get me hooked!
>>98863185Was still at primary school and one of my friends who liked cool art bought this WD because it looked cool. I was immediately entranced by the images of metal Daemonhunters retinue types within and we started playing using the 2nd edition rulebook he'd bought cheaply on eBay (using 3rd edition codexes lel)
>>98850734I really like that terrain
>>98863185When I was like 5, I lived a couple blocks away from an LGS. My parents took me there, as they took it for a toy shop. I was immediately transfixed with the minis but my parents didn't buy me anything at that time.Some years later, a mate from school showed me some orcs, gobbos, a giant and some empire lads that his uncle painted and gifted him, along with the 6th ed rulebook. I didn't play until a while later, but have been into Warhammer since then.
>>98863185>I still got the box and the imaginary stuck with me forever. So what got you into this thing?Happy little gamer me started with BattleTech and playing Chainmail. Joined the Navy, got out into the world, found Warzone and Clan War, enjoyed them both. Got Space Hulk and some Battle Sisters just because I liked the look of them and the codex art, with the odd game of 2e 40k. Got heavily into Necromunda and WarEngine in the interim. Flash forward to '99: a combination of financial mismanagement, poor edition choices, and the Pokemon Crash wipes out Heartbreaker, FASA, Alderac, Demonblade and most other game companies. So I bit the bullet and split the 40k 3E starter box with one of my Warzone buddies to get more into 40k.
>>98862666I know I should just look through my old stuff but most of it is early 00s era when I really want 80s or 90s stuff to tinker with. That led me to a nice reminder that warhammer stuff on ebay is still mostly a massive scam with one or two not terrible still a bit eye watering listings.Unless you can find fucked up 300 coats of paint stuff to save or missing parts that can be sculpted back on, or maybe a mislabeled or misunderstood job lot.I really should just go back to my plan to scratch build an Epic Ork army. All vehicles and gargants.Maybe buy a single Ork army sprue and learn to recast.
>>98864863>Heartbreaker>DemonbladeDoes anyone hold their model lines anymore?
>>98865048>HeartbreakerPrince August has the "back stock" from his days as the official caster under Heartbreaker. And definitely got rid of the molds in the bankruptcy. 100%. Check their instagram to see what they "found" in the "back room" recently, it's not complete (especially Imperial and Cybertronic) but impressiveIf you accept 3DP, most of the 1e Warzone resculpts and 2e models have been scanned and are varying levels of out in the wild. The new licensor for Warzone 4 appears to be in trouble, and are also charging ludicrous prices for a single half-squad of models in 35m with very limited selection>DemonbladeThey've been through a bunch of hands but currently most of the line is in limbo>Grenadier sells 40k knockoff "K-Force" line to Warpeyes (Aaron Overton), keeps the Future Warriors line and eventually reverts it to CopplestoneNote that different stores will have wildly varying selections of models because Copplestone licensed the shit out of them, but the "Savages" are just straight-up Vengequan prototypes>Demonblade rebrands to more family-friendly "Dark Tortoise" in 2000, as the crash hits>Folds a few years later. Releases Shock Force and WarEngine rules to public domain>Mega Miniatures buys unknown number of molds and repackages, incomplete release>closes in 2013>Mega Owner retains rights to "a few" minis>Omni Miniatures buys "some" sci-fi rights from Mega, closes before CovidArmorcast bought and still has a handful of Shock Force minis. Look under the "Salvage Crew" brand, notably MagdalenaCurrent:>https://facelesspublishing.comHas the license to scan and reproduce the GothRats, they've found a few especially rare miniatures in the process>Golgo IslandA fan expansion. The minis went from Mega to Hasslefree and are currently held by Crooked Dice>all the GWAR stuffLong, long OoP. There's conversion fodder in the KS boardgame "HATE" . If you look there are 3D scans of most of the miniatures line floating around elsewhere
>>98865048(cont.)At the risk of breaking too far into /awg/ - I should also point out that WarEngine was deliberately made as a 40k heartbreaker with unit creation rules to reflect that. You can just stat up most old/middlehammer 40k units in it, using the existing factions for ballparking your numbers. >ArmiesCorporate Shock Force>literally just Cadian proxies with Sister Sin squads (pic very related) and techpriestsI used my Warzone Capitol army with a few Cartel assetsDeadTech>Nanomachine-based Terminator cowboy zombiesThis one's hard to replace, sadly. Someone should get on that.Mutants>Muties led by dominatrixes and Lord Humungous typesPretty much any old-school mutie line will work. The guy who did the This is Not a Test muties was a long-time member of the WarEngine Yahoo Group/Usenet listservVengequan>Necromunda Ratskins. Again, the Future War "Savages" are prototypes for the faction, and you could easily use TNT Tribals as wellThe Org>"Mafia" orks. Mechanically they're late Rogue Trader Orks. The Mafia visuals never existedGothRats>New York greaser Skaven With GunsScarlet Brethren>Redneck cultists with a hard core of those red-robed Imperial guards from Star Wars. Chaos cults in all but name.
>>98865426>>98865572This anon is a scholar and a gentleman, thank you very much!
>>98865048>>98865959I also forgot one other thing - https://impact-miniatures.myshopify.com/search?q=mutant+chronicles&options%5Bprefix%5D=lasthttps://impact-miniatures.myshopify.com/search?q=Heartbreaker&options%5Bprefix%5D=lastImpact minis may be flooded with garbage and impossible to navigate, but they have resin casts of a bunch of Oldhammer-adjacent fantasy models and the original Mutant Chronicles RPG models. https://www.ralparthaeurope.co.uk/shop/heartbreaker-miniatures-28mm-c-115/Ral Partha Europe has most but not all of their early fantasy models, along with a couple that Impact isn't stocking, individually in metal for about 3 times the price.If you're not aware, Heartbreaker was founded by a bunch of people ditching GW in the early buyout days, and they'd eventually form Scotia Grendel in the ashes of Heartbreaker going down. There are quite a few unfinished Warzone sculpts that wound up in the Vor/Urban War line, and some goofy 90s fantasy models they inherited from Black Tree
>>98865426>>98865572>>98866754great autism lad, I live for posts like thisI really wish there was a more concerted effort to get Lost Minis Wiki, Collecting Citadel Miniatures, Stunties, and Stuff of Legends (RIP Orclord) all both on the same page (literally and metaphorically) and also on a more stable platform.
I LOOOOOVE OOP ARTILLERY PIECES
>>98867384Me too.
>>98867384>>98868148
>>98863185>So what got you into this thing?I didn't see a model or a book for months after I "got into" warhammer.On a grey October morning, in my first year of high school, this kid sitting next to me mentioned in passing that the afternoon before he played Warhammer with his friend.After some prodding he gave me the summary of the game and I just sat there for 15 minutes in full awe.For literal months I'd ask this kid every day to tell me more about the games, the world, the factions, the models, his paint scheme...It was May when I first walked into a store (which was literally across the street from our school)...The next day I went to my friend, and I was pissed beyond belief because he failed to mention that these tiny toy soldiers costed what was (for a broke kid in southern Italy) a literal fortune. Warhammer wasn't for me, I guessed. and moved on with life.A few years later a couple of things happened: a 3rd kid was selling off his dwarf army and GW released pic related. And that's how I met your mother.
Because I dropped it for /wip/ - rip of Bile's old Warhammer papercraft site and various things from the Yahoo building-with-carboard group. Including old WD articles. Quarter-gig of goodnessGF: /d/beqc2Alj(does not contain dolphin porn)
I finally got my hands on an original Goff warboss and turns out the plastic ork power fist doesn't fit the sculpt! No wonder Ghazkhull (the original) has a chainsword.
>>98853741>I think they ended up boxing in their design space with what the "basic" leaders could even do while trying to keep it simple. Something where they get to reroll or chose mission table options would have been good but I suspect open up more problems than it solves.Oh certainly.My personal approach would have been to just give the mid- and high-tier generic Heroes a tablewide re-roll ability that doesn't stack.E.g., if you have a Captain, you can re-roll 1 hit roll and 1 wound roll per turn, anywhere. Way more impactful than Morale checks, which you basically never fail as a Marine anyway, and which you already have like 5 ways of mitigating. Also, where the fuck is my 1W Commander, I don't want to take a fucking Captain to lead my Combat Patrol.
>>98862734>a player who chose models based on what looked cool and what fluff they liked who then took the time to learn their army well would piss all over some seething WAACoid who spammed nothing but 5 man lasplasYou're committing a fallacy here. WAACfagging attracts a lot retards, true, but a WAACfag of average skill will wipe the floor with any fluffy list. I can fully understand where you're coming from if you never actually met any minimally competent tryhards or tried to break the system yourself for shits and giggles, but you're just plain wrong there.>Not to mention that stuff that looks "bad" in isolation can actually perform a really pivotal role in an overall balanced list that enables other things to do their jobs better.In most Editions pre-5th you didn't have that much Synergies that this would ever matter. You took the killy shit you have and because of the way the weapons were designed, killy shit would kill everything.>Honestly the only times I think you could honestly, sincerely say that GW games were *broken* were a few of the wargear/magic item/character combos during the Herohammer period, and 7th Edition WHFB's army books where there were legitimately a handful of armies that you might as well not even bother playing the game against them their victory was such a foregone conclusion.You must have had a pretty chill gaming group.
I live in an apartment and long gone are my days of fuckhuge kitchen tables. Does 40k 2nd ed falls apart rather quickly at smaller point games? Or does it scale down okay?
>>98872166It scales down excellently. 500 point games are one the best ones.
>>98863185My Uncle left a stack of White Dwarf, Dragon Magazine and Warhammer Fantasy 2nd edition at my Grandparents house when he moved out and I'd read them when I was staying at theirs.Kind of explains why I always had more fun with skirmish games and weird citadel stuff as opposed to Fantasy and 40k but that's what the most people played in my area so I was forced into them over the other games a bit.
>>98872166>>98872793A Necromunda gang would probably scrap 250 at most if you converted the skills over to 40k while aGorkamorka mob might push 400 depending on the vehicles picked.The rules work great at smaller scale.
>>98871995Not that anon, but not even during 7th I encounter the meme Taudar.Worst situation was when my sisters of battles regularly deleted my friend's orks.Mostly due to the basic combination of Sisters having flamers and melta, meaning whatever vehicles the ork hid in got open by the meltas and the creamy green interior got easily burned by flamers. It was an issue because not even trying to list tailor I was hard countering him.I had to do some strange meme Inquisition list to avoid it.What I'm saying you are playing a game at the end of the day and all the parties involved should have fun. Losing can be fun, people going out of their way to break a game, maybe should not be playing wargames. I mean its not like it is hard to break it, it happen to me by accident.
>>98872166>>988721664th ed kill team rules
>>98871995>You're committing a fallacy here. No mate, you're just an arrogant delusional shit like all WAACoids. Most fluffgamers don't really bother to drill down into the rules and figure out the ins & outs so you spam "the best" thing and you wipe the floor with them. This gives you the delusional impression that you're good at the game, but the game is what happens on the tabletop not listbuilding, and on the tabletop never more than one WAACoid in a hundred has any fucking clue what they're doing.>no synergiesSnigger. And you claim *I* don't understand the game. Listen little buddy, I know to the kind of person who thinks Le Epic Pwnplay or whatever is triggering a bunch of keyword aura abilities in nuhammer's MOBAslop gameplay you might believe that makes you an amazing tactician, but that kind of failure of comprehension is exactly why WAACoid drones were toilet paper to me for years. The game is maneuver. The game is objectives. The game is making your opponent thing you're doing one thing, letting them think they stopped you and feeling smug about it, then pissing on their Cheerios when they realise too late you were actually planning something entirely different. You can kill half my army? So what, I can still kill enough of yours that when the VPs are counted my objective play puts me over the top.You're mistaking "fluffy" for "ineffectual". You're mistaking "suboptimal" for "useless". You are, in short, a fucking dimwit.
>>98874132>Mostly due to the basic combination of Sisters having flamers and melta, meaning whatever vehicles the ork hid in got open by the meltas and the creamy green interior got easily burned by flamers. It was an issue because not even trying to list tailor I was hard countering him.>I had to do some strange meme Inquisition list to avoid it.Everybody who was friends with an Ork player knew that pain, lmao. >>98874993So many assumptions, so much projection, so little reading comprehension.
>>98877612The only time during 3rd/7th that I recall having issues with orks was that odd time period during 5th where they could waacfag the shit out of the wound spreading mechanic with their biker nobz.
>>98871977I'd be okay with a Specialist Games (BB, Warmaster, BFG) style generic reroll token per wound of the marine commanding officer, I wouldn't even really mind keeping the leadership bonus/subin it doesn't come up enough to be a big deal. I do miss the older strategy cards and the like though and would be alright with the reroll at least being part of the mission selection rolls too.
Is this a reasonable Eldar list at 500 points for 2e? Only commander choice that is legal is the farseer (Avatar is too expensive obviously), I didn't want to use anything too mean like Warp Spiders but wanted something a little fancier than some Guardian blobs.
>>98881103I just realised the export doesn't display things clearly, the tl;dr is >Farseer with Witch Blade, Displacer Field, Spirit Stone>5x Fire Dragons>5x Scouts, 1 with a power sword
>>98881103What did you use for that? Might wanna try it myself too. I don't recommend using HQs in 500 point games, especially ones that are level 4 psykers. Fire dragons might also not be that useful unless you know you're going against leman russ or something like that. Scouts are right at home in 500 point games, looks good.
>>98881103>>98881257Basically use that space marine rule flexible leadership where any character can be commander for all armies in small games. Tyranids are especially interesting when there is only warriors leading gaunts and IG where veteran sergeant or commisar leads a small squad. Absolutely no need for level 4 psykers in small game, just takes the fun away.
>>98881684>>98881257I used newrecruit for the army list, and thanks for the idea, I may switch to using an Exarch for the commander. The Fire Dragons were mostly a hedge against Termis, but I will think about if I switch to a different unit type.
>>98863185Warhammer at four years old lmao. Did you paint any then?Anyway for me my brother brought picrel White Dwarf home from school, it was in a pile of magazines they were using for arts n' crafts. It had the cover removed so I never actually saw it until years later but I think that battle report was the first Warhammer-related thing I ever saw. I remember thinking it was bullshit that the Sanguinor beat Abaddon AND the demon prince in combat, and immediately thought the chaos guys were way cooler even though they jobbed hard.. For a long time White Dwarfs were basically the only way I interacted with Warhammer.
>>98881103Read the rulebook on choosing a commander.It was pretty common to just ignore the compulsory characters in very small games, because the codices were balanced around 2000pts or greater mostly. The ultramarine codex even says they balanced it for games of 3000pts lol. It's why they had to introduce the ability to just take combat squads later on.
>>98881127I would try something like:5 scouts 1153 fire dragons 845 guardians with catapults 701 lascannon grav platform 59Which leaves plenty of points for an exarch and a warlock and some wargear. Or a warlock and another guardian squad (or a vyper).
>>98883402Sure did, my dad made sure of it. I had painted some plastic soldiers before that. My kids have painted their first models too at ages of 3.
>>98883557>Read the rulebook on choosing a commander.I do sincerely apologise anon, I have read the rulebook a good many times but I had my codex blinkers on, in which only the Farseer or Avatar may be chosen as commander (and if the Avatar is in your force it must be the commander iirc). I haven't been able to play second in some years, so the "just take whatever special option and define commander by leadership" wasn't in my mind.>>98883609All of my Guardians have Lasguns (yes I know I am not at a tournament being wysiwyg'd, but I still like to myself on principle), but I guess that means more points for fun stuff. I'll take your input on board, and maybe a Warlock would be a nice commander option without going full L4 psyker on someone.
Do you beautiful people know if "standard" dreadnought arms fit into Black Reach one? I man the joints. Do either part need to be somehow converted?
>>98886860Ooh! A question I can answer! Hot dog!No. The shoulder pins on the AoBR dreadnought are too small. I tested with metal 2nd Edition arms, plastic 3rd Edition arms, and even the plasma cannon from the Venerable Dreadnought kit. Only the AoBR arms fit snuggly.
>>98884583Don't apologise to that anon, he is wrong.That Commander section in the rulebook predates the release of the Codex so the Codex saying you must have an Avatar or Farseer overwrites it.However it was a common thing to house rule out when playing smaller games. As >>98881684 points out Space Marines were in the same boat and it wasn't until 3.5 years into the edition (17 months before 3rd released) the designers thought to suggest doing so in a WD article.
>>98888391
>>98888397
>>98887073Putting magnets into that would be the easiest thing to do
>>98888608>magnetsThat makes the most sense to me, too, since the AoBR dreadnought is the only plastic boxnaught kit with a multi-melta and you might still want to use that for some games. My other thought were those little vinyl bushings Bandai uses for plastic robot models, but you'd have to remove them each time you wanted to use the original AoBR arms.
>>98888391Thank you for filling me in anon, but I will stand on my apology to that anon. Acerbic as he was, he did hit at the fact that I wasn't thinking of list building correctly for the period and setting, and that reminder is always helpful. Thanks for the article, I think I have that WD in my archive somewhere so I will check it out in depth again.
>>98888391Not just a house rule, it was an official Grand Tournament rule.
>>98834439I had the 5th edition ork codex and that was maybe my favorite codex in the entire game. I think i crashed out on 7e, 6th was my jam,Why isn't there any midhammer stuff? 4th is a lame cutoff point for me, i don't want to be lumped into the 7e + crowd, they suck.
>>98891998>Why isn't there any midhammer stuff? Because it's the wrong thread for it.And it's shit.
Game peaked at 3rd Ed. custom vehicle rules and I will die via toilet paper rollerdozer on this hill
>>98892116>yourYou're.
>>98892116>Anon says newer (Middlehanner) editions are shit>"your too stupid to play older editions"Nani?
>>98888391I was never denying that the codex would overrule the core rulebook. Just pointing out that the rulebook has perfectly fine rules to make any character count as your commander. It all depends on whether you want to ignore the codex requirements for small games.>>98890634As this guy says. It's funny to think of 1500pts as a small game.
>>98891998The 5th ed ork codex is a funny thing. In my country it was released at the end of 4th ed. With the exception of loota boys and the shock attack gun, it was a massive downgrade from the 3rd ed codex. Overall it was a hugely weaker book, that forced ork players to build more extreme meme armies from 5th to 6th edition, as time went on.
There are no rules for force staves in the 2nd edition, right? I wonder what you're supposed to use the librarian, warlock and sorcerer staves as, force rods?
>>98894648What are you smoking anon, there is in wargear cards, for both staves and rods. Rods are just better, slightly more expensive staffs.Also lel, go check out the middlehammer general, its going spectacularly.
>>98894681Where's the force staff wargear card?
>>98894681>Also lel, go check out the middlehammer general, its going spectacularly.If it's based around the frankly bad times of 5-7th 40k (which isn't Middlehammer but whatever lol) I'm happy for them to do their own thing.
>>98894681I mean it is one dude trying to force something and picking fights. What did he expected to happen i do not know
>>98894695Unless it's defined in a codex or something I missed, it doesn't exist. Use the force rod wargear card.
>>98894813I dunno, i kind of like the idea.Your right though that guys a sperg.
>>98894681What was even the point of that if we already allow middlehammer in /grog/ going by the traditional definition of post RT being middlehammer lmfao.
>>98894858i thought he mentioned something about calling it something else.
Tourist here, is 4th edition 40k allowed in /grog/? I always got the impression this thread was more retro than that.
>>98894858I think the problem is that 5th to 7th was dominated by competitive players. So it's an era of middlehammer with some good times, nostalgia, and a lot of toxic players too.
>>98894877If you're going to be a faggot about it, there's this great new thread for you >>98894681If not, then yes.
>>98894877yes, helloIt's my favourite edition
>>98894695I think it came with the Dark Millennium box, Battle Bible lists it among other force weapons
>>98894877Sure.
>>98894900The Battle Bible is full of false information, don't use it.
>>98894877Yeah what >>98894897 said. You can even come here with 7th ed 40k if you are in the right spirit. Just dont expect a lot of responses because most of the thread wont know shit about that edition since they dont care.
>>98894929False or old informations?
>>98894929It's a bit harsh to say to not use it. The current dude maintaining it has stripped out nearly all the fan-made stuff. I just wish he'd distribute the source file, like the original author had the balls to do.
>>98894929The only things I've noticed so far are some extra wargear cards that look fine, even if they aren't "official". Nobody should be complaining about the thunder hammer, master crafted laspistol, and the force staff. These are fine, and if I remember correctly, the thunder hammer came from a citadel journal article anyway.
>>98895129He should at least include sources so you can tell what's unofficial.
>>98894900>I think it came with the Dark Millennium boxI have two or three sets of these cards, and I don't see a generic "Force Staff" wargear card that is distinct from a Force Rod. The Black Book allowed some psykers to buy force weapons at points costs, while later codices require they get them as wargear cards.The three force weapons generally available as wargear cards to psykers are "Force Sword", "Force Axe", and "Force Rod". These weapons improve the wielder's Strength by his mastery level and vary further by how many Warp Cards the controlling player may store in them like a battery between Psychic Phases. Swords and axes can also expend stored Force cards to improve both the Strength and save modifier of a melee attack, and the Force Sword grants the user the ability to parry one enemy die.Grey Knights and Inquisitors may have a Nemesis Force Weapon, which has a built-in storm bolter, allows the wielder to parry, can store up to two Force cards, can expend Force cards to inflict extra wounds on daemons (d3 for one, d6 for two), and increases the bearer's Strength by a value equal to his mastery level.Njal Stormcaller has a unique Rune Staff, which works like a Force Rod, except that he gets up to three Warp Cards at the start of the game and it also increases Njal's Attacks and Initiative.Chief Librarian Tigurius has a unique rod, the Rod of Tigurius, that allows the Ultramarines player to play a psychic power that can not be nullified in the turn that it is used, but Tigurius will suffer d6-4 Wounds each time he does this. I swear there was an FAQ in White Dwarf that explained that this is the only power his rod has, and that it does not also follow the rules for a Force Rod.Eldrad Ulthran has the Staff of Ulthamar. It works much like a Force Rod, but may store an unlimited number of Force cards, *plus* it adds both the wielder's mastery level (Eldrad is Level 4) *and* the number of stored Force cards to his Strength in melee combat.
>>98895206If the dude had the balls to distribute his source file, we could do just that. I could also take all that material, and combine it with the project anvil and scarborough games group material to make a killer "expansion battle bible" for heaps of new models, and extra wargear.
>>98895231>>98895129Oh so thats how it is. I always thought that current battle bible was accurate enough. I only got the rulebooks and models, since I printed all cards, terrain and datafaxes myself from various sources, I dont hold any original boxes or sets.>>98895259What has scarborough games group cooked up? Never heard of that. Project anvil is a gem
>>98874993This reads as delusional and cringe
>>98895334The battlebible was never accurate and full of fan made stuff. The new guy who decided to clean it up hasn't managed to finish the job.To be fair, 2nd ed is an old game with a lot of additions made over it's lifetime. There's plenty of house rules that were quite common amongst players towards the end of it's life. The game designers themselves pushed out optional updates to the vehicle rules to make assaulting them somewhat dangerous, and to make transports more survivable for the passengers. And of course, some extra fan-made wargear cards of middling power should be welcome. Wargear is cool. But all the extra content was spread over codices, white dwarf, citadel journal, a mailing list, and the author of the battlebible too.I think it's important to have an accurate set of rules for historical purposes. But to actually play 2nd ed it's good to have extra wargear and vehicles, and a set of curated house rules to pick from. Once you play the game regularly the few well known problems with the game become apparent.Back in the past when we played it originally 90% of us weren't purists about the rules. Additions to the game were commonplace. We all had that friend who cut up a tank to put different weapons on it, or add extra missile launchers to it.
>>98895334The Scarborough group in 2013(ish) added extra vehicle cards, codex updates for 3rd ed units, and even wrote necron and tau books.
>>98897697Huh I thought that those tau and necron codexes were from same source since they are so similar. Did they also do those IG and ork updates too? Where can I find their resources?
>>98894877I should make a torrent with my 3rd/4th things. If anything so other people can have them in case my hard drives and backup are taken by the government
>>98897672>The battlebible was never accurate and full of fan made stuff. The new guy who decided to clean it up hasn't managed to finish the job.Huh? The group behind it has been updating it. I have 1.8.5 from last summer: > https://gofile.io/d/rnDzlPfGThe problem with 2nd is that ir requires so many cards, tokens, templates, special dice, and other stuff that the Bible alone is not really enough.
>>989017461.8.5 still has fan made stuff in it. The fan made stuff is ok, but it's not an "archival" version of the rules by any means.eg: master crafted laspistol never existed, but is cool.I would love for the maintainer(s) to share the source file. At the very least, we could use the template file alone to have a consistent style so we can make other "expansion" documents.
Happy Halloween, /grog/Remember GW made a "classic goblin green bases" tutorial that didn't use sand but their texture paste: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nM9CipMiBEIn all seriousness. Did anybody here from that era enjoy goblin green basing?I vaguely remember an oldhammer era box of WFB dwarfs that were on basing that looked pretty good that wasn't goblin green. They probably had brown painted sand and then some other stuff beyond tufts/static grass thrown in. I'm not sure.
>>98903666Can't find that specific image on my garbage pile of SDD but there was article in WD saying that Goblin Green was choosed by 'Eavy Metal team for bases only because it looked good on photos.
>>98897672It doesnt matter that much. Battlebible is still a wonderful thing because it creates an easy access point for people intrested in 2nd edition. You can give them one organised document to figure it out instead of "there is 15 books+ card plus dice. Good look ill be outside". And while not being perfectly accurate it is well within the spirit of the game which is the most important part.
So that "Middlehammer" thread is just one guy having a melty because people keep reasonably telling him 5-7th edition are indeed not Middlehammer, huh?Interesting that zero actual game discussion has been had.
Do not start the topic here for Christs sake. If you want to argue terms use that threat as containment
>>98903666Goblin green basing looks great when on the kind of vibrant grassy boards GW liked to use and good in isolation but IMO it can look pretty bad when the models are on other kinds of terrain. I think moving to earth tone base rims was probably the right call, they fit in basically everywhere.
>>98904684Yup, the gobbo green base provides excellent contrast and readability on a matching table. It makes it easy to tell apart base from figure and make out specific regiments at a glance, particularly when the print quality is as spotty as it was in the 80s/90s.Compare the bright colours and goblin green bases with (for example) Blanche's earlier pieces; the bases are often highly decorated, there's an abundance of earthy tones, texture and patterns that give a beautiful look to the mini on its own (at times even seamlessly merging base and model), but make it really hard to tell details apart from more than two feet away. 8 do find silly that a lot of people nowadays see goblin green as the only 'valid' form of retro basing, when there were many styles and variants, then again, a lot of retro wargamers want to replicate the stuff they saw on nook and advertisement photos rather than bring their own take on things.
>>98903666The plain green bases standard didn't even last that long for real, you'll even find articles in White Dwarf occasionally reminding people that yanno, you can do other things. And examples of people's personal figures that defy the convention. Tim Prow (of eavy metal at the time, now Die Hard miniatures which has some great oldhammer-y stuff) has recalled that he preferred the darker salamander green paint trim, and bluntly shut down a request to repaint them to goblin green when his personal figures were featured in White Dwarf.They finally managed to fully escape the full tyranny of them with Gorkamorka after arguments between the painters and the management due to Necromunda because management demanded the Necromunda models be put on goblin green bases because of the amazing logic of "that's how we do it" rather than anything sane. So yeah, anyone insisting on plain green sand/flock goblin green bases as some kind of "one true path" is a trapped in memes. Christ, if you were actually replicating the average base of the time from people you'd just put thick green paint on a base and not even bother with flock or sand because people were children and didn't spend money on frivolous extras like that.
>>98904900Was this one of the first issues after they bought a computer to edit with, or is the wacky layout part of the whole punk thing?As an aside, does anyone know where to find the marble background image they used all the time (or something similar to it)? If I can avoid trying to trawl through the endless AI wastes of stock images and textures to try and find a close simulacrum I would very much like to do so
>>98904975'90s layout was just like that up until 40k 3rd/Warhammer 6th which really mostly just down to it being the Paul Sawyer era where the soul got sucked out.
>>98904975I know that marble background (or a very similar one) along with fonts and premade layouts are available on a thread in the the oldhammer forum. Can't quite remember the name of it, but 'Eavy Lead might be ringing a bell here.
>>98906475https://forum.oldhammer.org/threads/a-not-eavy-metal-for-oldhammer-painters.11018/post-88758This one? Helpfully the drive link is privated and it's even odds the dude that made it is even still alive a decade on
