Welcome to the Old School Renaissance General, the thread dedicated to first-decade, Gygaxian D&D, its faithful modern clones, and content created for use with them. Later editions (2e and newer) should be discussed elsewhere.Broadly, OSR games encourage a tonal and mechanical fidelity to Dungeons & Dragons played as intended by its creators from 1974 to 1983 — less emphasis on linear adventures and overarching metaplots and a greater emphasis on player agency.If you are new to the OSR, welcome! Ask us whatever you're curious about: we'll be happy to help you get started. We also have two excellent beginner guides created by Anons with feedback from the thread that you can check for help:>n00b DM's Guidehttps://pastebin.com/EVvt6P0B>n00b Player's Handbookhttps://pastebin.com/XALkXkV0>Troves, Resources, Blogs, etc:http://pastebin.com/9fzM6128>Need a starter dungeon? Here's a curated collection:https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/94994969/#95006768>Previous thread:>>98735990>Thread question:How do you handle seafaring in your games?
>>98805916>How do you handle seafaring in your games?I honestly just treat it as hexcrawling on the sea, I know that's lame but I really can't be bothered with wind directions and shit like that, I feel it would bog down gameplay and require player knowledge that in my case my players would have to cram for.
>finally back in the action after a delay caused by illness in the group.>exploring the lower level of the dungeon >rooms are smaller and corridors are shorter complicating movement of such a large party>The front ranks getting fixed by an obvious enemy while another group attacks from the side is a regular occurrence >still we press on>mage missile in ACKS is kinda nuts because it puts every fight on a timer if the enemy has no ranged weapons >come to what quickly becomes obvious is a gnoll lair but it was abandoned in a hurry, even obvious treasure was left behind >our greed knows no bounds and we press on into a larger cavern and we find gnolls as arrows come out of the darkness and they have friends >more of the baby shoggoth things with paralysis attacks, zombies an wights.>turning doesn't work so we are going to actually have fight through all this.Sadly we had to call the game because of time. I think the GM is doing a pretty good job of not having the locals wait about to be killed and making attempts to get to the squishy mages even if it hasn't worked out super well for them yet but they did succeed at stopping one spell so far.>TQWe don't. My GM refuses let me do bote stuff.
>>98806081I think it would work better if there was a rulebook specifically for sea travel, so all the necessary player knowledge is baked in and gamified the way it is for other subsystems.
>>98806228Eh, maybe that would fix it for some people but for me, the players would still have to learn that stuff and it just doesn't seem worth it for the occasional shipboard jaunt while hexcrawling.I bet it would be useful for a game where the wilderness exploration was focused largely or entirely on sailing though.
>>98806191>mage missile in ACKS is kinda nuts because it puts every fight on a timer if the enemy has no ranged weapons Can confirm it: Mage Missile is the best level 1 spell in the game, even when you roll bad you're still able to shave away HP from the enemies.
>>98805916>How do you handle seafaring in your games?Not to be a dick, but by the book, how else?
>>98806191>mage missile in ACKS is kinda nutsYeah, I've just replaced it with the B/X version.
>>98806380Yeah even though one got disrupted we still have 3 going and another henchmen is going to declare mage missile in the next round.
>How do you handle seafaring in your games?Using Wilderlands' stuff of course!
>>98805916>How do you handle seafaring in your games?Generally at arms distance. For small boats and short trips its easy enough to put together, but long haul sea travel is mostly about logistics and measurements with a bit of randomization in it that player characters don't have a lot of influence over once you're blue water. Sailing ships with purpose is mostly hard work, repetition and doing what you're told with occasional wild moments. Giving whoever the captain is >save vs tpk as the ocean decides you're going to drown today and there isn't anything you can do about it isn't very interesting so I don't get into it much. If everyone had their own boat you could do naval wargames but I'd do that with something not dnd, the rules for it aren't very good. I've contemplated making a point crawl that has different routing and encounter tables based on trade winds, a bit like the old warhammer quest sea faring rules to keep it simple. An archipelago hexcrawl would work too, mostly making sure there are ways player actions actually mater.
>>98806806>f everyone had their own boat you could do naval wargames but I'd do that with something not dndI mean... this is literally BTB OD&D, Arneson had already written a naval wargame called Don't Give Up The Ship and by all accounts still used it in any situation that warranted it in Blackmoor.
>>98807873>Don't Give Up The ShipNeat. Looks more towards Age of Sail than I want, but when I was pulling that from scribid I did find Bireme & Galley which is a lot closer to the general era I like for osr games. Also apparently there's a fanmade warmaster naval game.
I've been working on a "not S.T.A.L.K.E.R." game based largely off of LotFP and some BFRPG. Especially now that it is slow at work.Looking for any feedback, input, criticism, suggestions, etc. Its still very much a rough draft and I haven't even had the opportunity to playtest it yet.>gofile.io/d/QUBQScTF
>>98808370>I did find Bireme & Galley which is a lot closer to the general era I like for osr gamesLook up Trireme insteadhttps://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1709/trireme-tactical-game-of-ancient-naval-warfare-494
>>98808370>>98809215Trireme is great, but reminder that OD&D has its own naval battle rules on LBB3, pages 28. They're the right level of complexity for D&D
>>98809797
>>98809797>>98809801
>>98809797>>98809801>>98809806
>>98809797>>98809801>>98809806>>98809810>WRITTEN ORDERS:>As detailed under Aerial Combat.See picture
>>98809797>>98809801>>98809806>>98809810>>98809815Yeah these are pretty bad rules. >Medievalships were not beating to the wind, they were barely making it past a reach. The wind rules for this are even more retarded than in AD&D.
>>98809797These rules are a kind of summarized DGUTS, IIRC.>>98810028>Medieval ships were not beating to the wind, they were barely making it past a reach.Yeah, Arneson was a Napoleonics guy so his takes are all late Age of Sail. In his and Gygax's defense, it's not like it was easy for a layman to find good sources on medieval sailing circa 1972.
>>98810037>Yeah, Arneson was a Napoleonics guy so his takes are all late Age of Sail. In his and Gygax's defense, it's not like it was easy for a layman to find good sources on medieval sailing circa 1972.Naval Library at Greenwich existed - he could have done his research, I'm sure Annapolis has something similar.
>>98810028>Yeah these are pretty bad rules.Can you elaborate on why?>ships were not beating to the wind, they were barely making it past a reach.>The wind rules for this are even more retarded than in AD&D.You mean from the historical POV? D&D is a fantasy game, not a historical simulation. I personally see nothing wrong in slightly anachronistic ship types.
>>98810110I mean from guy saying literally >Medieval ships and then using the wrong rules for them. Even with the fantastical, rules that are well written have mechanics that represent themes. These don't do that. Wind Force doesn't even effect ship speed, momentum, or turning. All of the sailing ships turn at the same rate. That's one page.
>>98810106>Naval Library at GreenwichNigga, Arneson was in fuckin' Minneapolis, he couldn't have been more landlocked if he tried. I don't think he ever left the country before the release of OD&D either.
>>98806081Same, it's just hex crawling in a different terrain type.Calculating wind seems like too much, but I do like to use a hex flower to figure out the weather ahead of time, like an almanac.
>>98806191>bote
>>98808788Hey I just wanted to let you know that I downloaded this and I am very interested in it, I already really like what I see, but I haven't had a chance to fully dive in and dissect. Consider a username or tripcode, and don't stop effortposting, I really like it so far!
>>98810127>Wind Force doesn't even effect ship speedIt does, though. See the table on page 28.
>>98810596Thanks. I am still updating it, slowly. Adding to the Bestiary, clarified how many rounds per ammo bought, etc. Little things like that. Not sure if I am missing anything glaring.
>>98805916>tq I usually avoid these pathetic threads like the plague but I saw the thread question and just have to swoop in here and save you ignorant, lost souls.Here’s the answer to handling to seafaring: play dungeons and dragons fifth edition because it solves seafaring by being a build brawler game with the feel of a team shooter video game such as overwatch, league of legends, or marvel rivals.You’re welcome.
>>98811289>it solves seafaring There's nothing to "solve" about seafaring in real D&D.>by being a build brawler game with the feel of a team shooter video game such as overwatch, league of legends, or marvel rivals.picrel
>>98810738Nope, that's just points of sail landlubber.
>>98811289>>98811338Retarded troll successfully trolling an even more retarded troll
>>98811461*In "the aristocrats" voice* The OSR Enthusiasts
>>98811461Fucking got ‘em lmao osr forever my nigs
>>98806389which book
>>98811543B/X
>>98811754NTA. The optional weather chart is for sure better for wind effects but doesn't take into account direction at all. The rules if you're not going to use the optional variance are hilarious. >roll 12>now roll random direction and 3x normal movement that way>if you reach land 75% chance boat sinks, try and not die Not something I would ever use but gets at the confused mess most of the attempts at sea travel rules are.
>>98811872A few things:First, travelling in a random direction is loads of fun. It's basically the equivalent of a misjump in Traveller. So is getting shipwrecked potentially, but see below.Second, the odds of that happening are remote and down to bad player choices. If the vessel is in sight of land, it can just enter a port or beach itself, there's a reason ships almost always travelled along the cost for most of the history of sailing. So just by using this precaution the risk of a shipwreck is pretty much averted. You just should not sail out of sight of land unless you're desperate or see #4.Third, even if the players are retarded, there's only a 1 in 36 chance of a storm, and then there has to be land on the ship's random path, which is rather unlikely if the ship is NOT in sight of land in the first place. One storm is usually enough to teach players not to stray from the cost.Fourth, Control Weather.
>>98811872>>98811956>doesn't take into account direction at allThis is a fair criticism. If that's a concern of yours, you can just port the rules from OD&D as multipliers, or just make your own. The ship types in B/X and OD&D are basically the same after you notice that B/X Warships and Sailing Ships have the same speeds.Anyway, what rules do you use?
I'm in a bit of a hurry to come up a nasty disease for tomorrow's game and would appreciate some ideas. Actually, if anyone could point me to an appropriate random table (online or in a book), that'd be cool too.
>>98812174https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/man-with-rare-skin-disease-to-receive-specialist-treatment-a6843726.html
>>98812174>>98812262Also google "huge testicles disease", I can't post direct links here because this is a SFW board.
>>98812174What type of disease is it? Something you get from mummies, or rats, or a swamp, or a magical curse, or...?
>>98810580We love cute botes here
>>9881226875% of the PCs are female, so this one is sounding increasingly appetizing...>>98812391No preference as to its origin. It should be something violent that's ravaging the settlement the group is heading to. I'm trying not to be lazy for once and avoid going with a Black Death equivalent.
>>98812473In that case, I would say that the best fucked-up medieval disease is St. Vitus' Dance. Another good one is the Sudor Anglicus although that one might confuse your players.
>>98810302No excuse for poor research. They have towing tanks in MN he should have done the experiments himself.
>>98812592>Sudor AnglicusThat one is divine punishment on the Tudor kings though.
>>98812174There's tables in the DMG
/osrg/ threads used to be bumpin' a few years back. What happened? Everyone get tired of rehashing the same 5 topics/arguments ad nauseam and leave?
>>98815331The 2etard troll finally got thrown out. A lot of the apparent activity was his dogshit posting and anons telling him to fuck off.
>>98815331See >>98815382It's not correct, but it does demonstrate why there's less activity. Though part of it is that there's less OSR hype in general than a miniature boom that happened in the early 2020s.
>>98815331>>98815382>>98815413The above plus we can't share PDFs anymore and 4chan as a whole has been declining for a few years now.
>>98811956Just stick with this, trust me. You're getting a lot of little points that link up to the entire problem but we need to go over those and get to the larger ideas. You didn't read the rules. The travel in a random direction happens 2.78% of the time; This is both bad in terms of bothering to make a further check after that in terms of gameplay, and if random movement is fun it only happening that often is also bad. You really didn't read the rules, if the vessel is close to land, it can't just get into port, its process wise fleeing before the storm after rolling weather and if it runs into land there's 75% chance of sinking. No save, no adjusting course, nothing. Control water is a 6th level spell. Notice most vessels don't have a magic user who can cast 6th level spells. The rules are badly made. That's okay, that' what we're trying to figure out how to do better but its not going to work if you can't even get to that point and have to scramble for bullshit about a paragraph for 12 year olds you didn't read properly. As >>98811999is getting at, it requires mixing together at least two editions of rules, including an optional rule and even then we still don't have a good solution to what the players are actually doing, we just have rules for a boat moving around that aren't totally retarded. This is a problem with seafaring rules and osr exploration play. With land exploration its easier to abstract what different parts of the party are up to at any given point in time. With a boat your options are a lot more limited. You're doing what the person in charge tells you to do. Skill checks for adjust a line and don't fall overboard every 15 minutes doesn't work gameplay wise. It can be heavily abstracted into a logistical minigame but that only suits if your entire group is fine with an accounting mini game, and even then you have to start figuring out how much randomization you're going to put in. >cont
>>98815382you mean the same shit you people are flooding the open osr thread with?
>>98815331Even a few years back posting in the /osrg/ was pointless."B/X + Reference the DMG" was about the limit of game quality being pushed. Crab posters pulled everything down to that level.I know my game improved wildly when I went elsewhere.
>>98815550>how much randomization you're going to put in...so that its not just >roll 1D100, 5% chance everyone dies The meaningful exploration choices on a boat are for the most part quite limited by weather and vessel capacity. So now we have to sort out how to have some semblance of verisimilitude, enjoyable mechanics and gameplay that fit into the ability to make rulings that don't turn into how most other games handle sea travel, which is a cut scene with a pause to fight a giant squid, more cut scene and a pause to fight some pirates. This can be entirely avoided if you decide to pay no attention at all to how boats and the ocean works, which might be the only way to do it and treat like land travel with a few nautical nods and spamming a bunch of boat words so the players feel like they're sailing or whatever, but at that point its gotten into making a story game feeling rather than a living world which is frankly not what I use osr for. Its a pickle. I'm going to try and trow together a costal map and a seasonal point crawl over the next bit, its been floating around for years as an idea but I'm curious enough to see if that can be made to work better. >cont
>>98815589Nautical combat rules themselves are another challenge because of chains of command being anathema to most ttrpg players. They can't all be captain of the ship, besides one ship combat being very boring to most people. So fleet combat appears more appealing at least in that everyone will get to move some boats around and make cannon noises. But some of the difficulty with mixing wargames into ttrpg play, even osr play where mass combat and domain play is supposed to be the idea, it falls into the PCs being big damn heroes a lot rather than wargames, naval war especially, where sometimes a boat is just fucked and there isn't anything anyone on board can do. They're going to die and its going to take half an hour for whoever's going to kill them to even get there. So figuring out what naval warfare game has the right mix of, again, verisimilitude, fantastical rules and player engagement seems very challenging.
>>98815331>a few years back It started getting quite fucked up around covid but its a normal fad trend in all things.>be niche and enthusiasts focused >get underground popular, get enough crative things its quite enjoyable but>get popular enough from that the enthusiasts for the thing are pushed out by the enthusiasts for the culture >people who actually know about thing leave >culture grifters run out of thing because they don't actually know fuck all about the thing they focused on the culture part A bunch of different things happened simultaneously but can be boiled down to 'osr' became enough of a marketing term and enough people decided they wanted to be the cool idea and culture around the idea than they wanted to play games, talk about that or read books. Once your ratio of people talking about culture or vibes instead of gameplay and what they're actually doing, you're essentially fucked. Not being able to post pdfs doesn't help but people posting things they made had been on a downward trend for many years. Some of it will also be as the enthusiasts got older they got families, kids, real jobs, etc. and that takes time so they have less to put into things like here, or got bored of osr and play other things. Most of the artpunks did that. >>98815585>I know my game improved wildly when I went elsewhere.and yet here you are just to complain? lol
>>98815550AYRT>You didn't read the rules.You're the one who didn't, Anon.>The travel in a random direction happens 2.78% of the timeOnly if the ship isn't in sight of the land, like I said.>if random movement is fun it only happening that often is also badThis is your subjective opinion. Also it's retarded. About 3% is reasonable.>if the vessel is close to land, it can't just get into portWrong. Take your own advice and read the rules before saying bullshit. Picrel.>As >>98811999>is getting at, it requires mixing together at least two editions of rulesThat was also me.
>>98815550>Control water is a 6th level spell. Notice most vessels don't have a magic user who can cast 6th level spells.Why is why they sail in sight of the coastline in familiar waters, so if a storm hits they can find refuge there.
>>98815658>Galley
>>98815706That's because galleys can't sail in front of the storm, so that's their only option. Doesn't mean other ships can't do the same.
>>98815680Yeah, see you're not getting it. This is part of why effort posting is so discouraged. There's almost no point trying to actually discuss anything, most anons are too stuck on wanting to be seen as right in their own heads than they are in figuring out how to make gamestuff better.
>>98815722>the rules don't mean what they say Okay. I guess we're back to making up the seafaring part entirely then. For a lot of the other types of vessels it does mean they can't beach instead but that's getting into how boats actually work which is the problem really. The abstraction required to make quick gameplay doesn't work with the detail involved in boats and seafaring, and the halfway don't make enough sense to have a functional game world players can engage with.
>>98815413>It's not correctOh yeah? You're saying the activity in e.g.>https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/96762682/wasn't highly colored by one raving assmad faggot trying to force his non-OSR game into the thread?
>>98815331Disagreements on definitions of OSR caused a schism and seems to have broken some people's brains because the anonymity lets people hallucinate boogeymen behind every post they dislike. With that said: 2nd Edition is not OSR
>>98815643My experience is that OSR is still so niche that there is effectively no social pressures to do anything in the culture. The only real pressure I've seen is rampant toxicity on tg, but its 4chan, so its not really unusual
>>98815572If they'd just shut the fuck up and stay in this thread it wouldn't drag on for years. But this place has a handful of knuckle-dragging mongoloids who spend all day repeating the same few points. 2e is and isn't OSR. I don't give a shit. Gygax is dead, and none of you matter.
>>98816264>I Don't Give A Shit But I Must Post>by Harlan EllisonSame as it ever was.
I find it ironic when people start hand-wringing about how /osrg/ is le bad and nobody talks about games here, right smack in the middle of other people having a detailed discussion of game rules.
Newbie zoomer here. What does "% in Lair" mean?AFAIU, when you roll up an outdoor encounter, you don't encounter that monster, only its lair, and you roll the "% in Lair" to know if the monster is home. That's my deduction of it, though i'm not sure if I should roll for each monster or for them as a general group.
>>98817284Your understanding is completely wrong. When you roll on a table for a wilderness encounter, you then consult the chance of percent in lair. If you are within this value on a percentile roll, you encounter the creatures at their lair. This is relevant because almost all decent treasure is found in hoards and not on individuals abroad.
>>98817375Another question:I'm reading OSE and it says that every character, unless noted otherwise, has a 1-6 chance of finding traps, but the thief, at level 1, has a 10% chance of finding and disarming traps, at level 2 they only have 15, both are lower than the 1 in 6 chance (roughly 16.6%). So am I missing something? How can it be that the thief has lower chances of finding traps than other characters at levels 1 and 2?
>>98817429oh nevermind, looking around in the interwebz I found an plausible answer still these rules are weird
>>98817520No problem, but let me still please answer your question. >>98817429There are two kinds of traps:"Room traps": these are things like Spears coming out of the walls, the walls trying to crush you, things like that. Any character has a chance of detecting something like this, equal to 1:6.Treasure traps are exclusive to the thief, and they are things like hidden poison needles, or potentially secret magical traps on the lock. Basically Indiana Jones covers normal traps. But you need a hyper specialist for that weight trap that Indiana Jones fucked up with the golden idol and the sandbag
>>98818117>Treasure traps are exclusive to the thiefWhere does it say this? Not doubting I just don't remember it
>>98818205No no, he's right, at least in the OSE books. But I doubt they were different in the OG manuals as OSE is generally veeery faithful to the OG versions.The rules differentiate between room traps and treasure traps.>"There are two kinds of traps:> Treasure traps: Small traps placed on an item, to prevent it being tampered with or stolen (e.g. a poison needle on a chest or lock).> Room traps: Large traps that are designed to affect anyone who enters a certain area (e.g. a pit that opens in the floor when walked over).">- Advanced Fantasy Players Tome v1.0, page 211, dungeon adventuringIt also says that all characters have a 1 in 6 chance of finding ROOM TRAPS.>If a character is searching in the right location, there is a base 1-in-6 chance of finding a secret door or room trap. >- Advanced Fantasy Players Tome v1.0, page 211, dungeon adventuringBut it also says in the thief class page that thieves have an ability that allows them to find and disarm TREASURE TRAPS. Page 74 of the Advanced Fantasy Players Tome v1.0.
>>98818220>I doubt they were different in the OG manualsIt's not different but it's much less clear, and the distinction was clearly articulated the first time by a user on, IIRC, the D&D Stack Exchange. If you find the original question/answer post you can actually see Gavin Norman replying to it and saying he's sure this explanation is correct and he's going to integrate it into future editions of B/X Essentials, as it was at the time.But yeah, it's a Moldvay rule that (for once) he just didn't explain very well.
>>98818205>Where does it say this?NTAYRT. Read the answer by user fatootie herehttps://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/41032/in-moldvays-basic-dd-should-the-thief-roll-twice-to-find-a-trapIt is currently ranked #2
>>98818739Damn, this is a huge epiphany moment for me. I dig this interpretation bigly
>>98818764*NTA sorry
>>98820682I must be ignorant than because I have no idea what that is.I've run some osr and I'm generally interested in it but it seems super niche and free form to me
>>98820835I stick to OSE and had a blast running the Hole in the Oak, then ran my own stuff with a rotating groupgot some friends and family in with hole in the oak paired with my setting
>>98820997OSE classic btwI dont like splitting race and class
>>98805916I was playing a jedi-esque cleric and I thought it might be fun to give him a "lightsaber" like spell effect."Luminous Blade"Level: 2Duration: 1 turn per leveladd 1d6 magical damage to all successful attacks with this weapon. During this time the weapon gives off as much light as a torch and can cut through almost any non-magical material given enough time.Could have a nice bit of utility doing that door cutting thing or felling a tree if you think a level 2 spell is worth it. Doing it on a quarterstaff would really make it look like a light saber!You think thats roughly the power level of a lvl 2 spell?
>>98821005NTAYRT, but Based. Have you read B/X?
>>98822342No, but maybe I should jump on those if they're lightI've started the 1979 DMG but I haven't made serious progress.
>>98822707B/X is 60 pages, and OSE is basically a reference book for B/X.Gary's DMG is a font of knowledge +1 though, so you'll probably want to go through that eventually.
>>98822739EZthx for the rec
>>98821517Why did this post get deleted? Anyway,Zak had a lot more impact than Macris on account of zak's boosting of the lotfp artpunk edgy stuff and the entire G+ era being the direct line to most of the nusr morkbog and co milieu? The macris milo posturing was just the culture war warming up. Zak getting eaten alive by the crowd he built was par for the course.
>>98823098I am curious, are you denying Macris' alt-right bona fides in mentioning the Milo posturing or do you think it's good actually?
>>98823098Are you ban evading?
>>98812965>why didn't your locally published zine hold itself the the rigorous standards of a professional academic Weird take.
>>98823098>Why did this post get deleted?Probably mods thought it was /soc/-tier gossip posting I guess. But it's a matter of court record.
I had never seen the second DMG cover and it's badass
>>98823245idgaf about it at all really. It always seemed both like boring political posturing that wasn't even pulled off well that then got jumped on by opportunists on their opposing side. That's always at the expense of actual gaming regardless of ideological bullshit. That you're needing it to be team blue or team red highlights how much you're part of that problem.
>>98823374Nope. The next few are mine but they're just deleted, which means whoever's doing it isn't even bumping up the chain, I haven't even gotten a warning or timeout. Do you not have a ghost post plugin? I highly advise it.>>98823524Yeah there were some weird calls recently in the other thread too. Like >>98820753 and >>98820835are about game culture specifically related to osr so whoever's doing it has no real idea what they're talking about and are just firing at almost random unless there's a new rule where you're not allowed to discuss who makes the games and how they do so.
>>98823795I asked because there's a bunch more nonsense than just the Milo stuff that points to him being an alt-right guy. He had a whole blog where he'd post about his politics and it was very, very obvious what he believed in. He's since deleted it in the run up to ACKS II to appear for palatable but you can still find it on archive.org. Now, I still play his game because when I strip out all of his base setting for my own bullshit there really isn't a lot of built in odious shit, he cares more about being a Romeaboo than being the perfect right-wing soldier when it comes to game design and his autism about tables is appreciated. I know the score of what kind of guy he is, play his game anyway because I recognize an autism I share but I don't give him any money. Denying he's a right wing nutjob is just trying to do damage control when he absolutely is that kind of guy.
>>98823883'>I asked a loaded question because I have a bias I want confirmed! I know. You're doing the /pol/ thing again. Don't care. Fuck off you're just as cancerous as what you claim to be against. Makes everyone hate you and undermines your political goals capacity, but you're not really as concerned with that as much as you're interested in grandstanding so I suppose that works for you. If Mein Kampf had good tables for urban paramilitary encounters I'd use them. Doesn't mean I care one way or another about their political policies.
>>98823883Like how based we talking here? Is he just some Trumptard or does he believe anything actually interesting?
>>98823903I asked that because you seemed to be denying his affiliation with Milo as mere posturing instead of what it quite correctly told people about him. If you want to use Mein Kampf for its urban paramilitary encounters by all means, but don't pretend Hitler was just misunderstood by his contemporaries.
>>98823912Holy shit you're dumb. Not caring about an affiliation isn't denying it. I don't care. I don't need to pretend one way or another about any of it. The zak sexual abuse controversy and fallout was significantly more influential on osr culture in relation to what anon was asking about. That you need to try and pretend the macris milo thing had nearly as much impact is weird, incorrect and strongly indicates you're a foaming at the mouth retard of a political stripe first, gamer second.
>>98823912He employed a guy, the guy turned out to be a total fucking looney tunes gay neo-nazi, he didn't believe it at first, then he accepted the truth and cut ties with the weirdo. Why are you comparing that to fucking Mein Kampf of all things? Zak did actual heinous shit to get his cancelled, the worst you can point to for Macris is maybe he has political opinions you don't like, but even then it's not for sure.
All this dross about creator's personal lives and politics is off topic and should be deleted.This thread is about playing elf games correctly.
>>98824048Haven't read a single post and I agree
>>98821207Why not just copy Flame Blade from the AD&D druid?
>>98823883>right wing nutjobIf you think everybody who disagrees with you is a "nutjob" odds are you're projecting.
>>98823906He think's the petrodollar is doomed to fail unless the US maintained global strategic dominance, and that the collapse of the petrodollar will cause global instability and maybe a war.He also isn't a fan of the various constraints that that us politics has in regards to preventing various economic and geopolitical threats.He's a nationalist and maybe a strongmanist but the main critiques that the left have against him was that he was CEO of the company that Milo Yanopolis worked for, that he owned the Escapist, and that he's economically literate. As far as I can tell dude has never said anything particularly racist or homophobic or violent.
>>98824092never played as a druid, didnt know that was a spell.desu sounds a bit underwhelming for 2nd level.
>>98823954>He employed a guy, the guy turned out to be a total fucking looney tunes gay neo-nazi, he didn't believe it at first, then he accepted the truth and cut ties with the weirdo.The actual story is much funnier.The gay-neo nazi being a gay neo-nazi wasn't a surprise, it was his entire brand. And, Milo is the one who hired Macris to run his company, a company that existed solely to try and position Milo as the self-described "most hated troll on the internet." Part of Macris's job was suing subway and billboard companies for refusing to put up ads for the guy's books, arguing free speech while the advertising companies argued hate speech.>he didn't believe it at firstI think it's that that's hard to believe.He also only cut ties when the company collapsed because it had one main financial backer, a cryptocurrency billionaire, who died from a drug overdose. Since trolling on the internet isn't exactly a cash-positive business, when that funding dried up Macris actually got fired along with the rest of the staff so Milo could try to pocket what remained.
>Having failed to create his own thread for the purposes of rallying an army of useful idiots to come fuck up the /osrg/, the prodigal Dagonite returns to try and do the job himself by picking up where he left off>Raving about ACKS
I find it kind of interesting comparing effects from old dnd to new dnd.I think the spell Bless is a particularly revealing one. in older editions of d&d it increased to hit and moral saves by 1 for all allies in an area, while 5e has it increase to hit and all saves by 1d4 for only 3 allies. I think that very clearly shows different assumptions in games. if you have a small 3-4 man party old dnd’s effect is pretty dang underwhelming, but if you have a party of 6 plus 4 hirelings, being able to effect all of them marginally pays dividends. it really shows how large parties are SUPPOSED to be in each game.
>>98825990>had one main financial backer, a cryptocurrency billionaire, who died from a drug overdoseName?
>>98825079>the main critiques that the left have against him was that he was CEO of the company that Milo Yanopolis worked for, that he owned the Escapist, and that he's economically literateOh, THAT'S why they hate the ACKS economics rules!
>>98826005Shocker, right! Never happened before.
>>98826270Matthew Mellon, according to this article.https://www.politico.com/story/2018/04/27/yiannopoulos-business-implodes-after-death-of-crypto-billionaire-557456
> Melan's Gamemaster’s Guidelines Beyond Fomalhauthttps://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2026/10/supplement-gamemasters-guidelines.htmlFINALLY AVAILABLE!
>>98827125>> Melan's Gamemaster’s Guidelines Beyond Fomalhaut>https://beyondfomalhaut.blogspot.com/2026/10/supplement-gamemasters-guidelines.html>FINALLY AVAILABLE!Forgot the cover image.
>>98827205>same rehashed generic fantasy bullshit we've had for 30+ years
>>98827281>hasn't even read the book>already throwing a melty about it
>>98825079I think you're right that online leftists got on him for the wrong reasons. Like I think that his neocon views and his support for israel ought to be infinitely more disqualifying than the fact that he worked for a culture war grift. The latter is just embarrassing, the former is genuinely detestable. However, I'll give Macris big props for the fact that he doesnt spill his worldview over the project, and I do think ACKS is all-in-all quite well designed. Still not giving him a dime though.
>>98823883>there really isn't a lot of built in odious shitIs there any at all?
>>98827303Saw enough from the sample thumbnails. Big "no thanks".
>>98827303I think its reasonable enough for people to want to see more of a preview than was here. I've gotten enough good stuff from them and enjoy their blog enough I'm not worried about it, good excuse to get Khosura and save on shipping for me. But certainly advise pirating many things before buying them in the current >OSR™branding era. That being said, >>98827281 >>98827752is clearly a fag tourist.
>>98827125>>98827205Hell yeah.
>>98827205"A curiosities table! This should be interesting!"Mystical Objects!!!>bowl>gong>incense>mirrorInteresting Materials!!!>grease>liquid>plastic>jellyFrom every preview image, this looks like the most generic, bland, soulless fucking thing I have seen since BFRPG. God no wonder the "OSR scene" died out.
>>98827959You're trying too hard
>>98827959>soullessHi fishfag
>>98828032>>98828082Cope more. This shit sucks ass. People will rewrite 30-40 year old shit and resell it to you fags forever.
>>98828159You literally only hate Melan because he has a book by Trump in his bookshelf, fishfag. You've admitted as much here:>>98815786>>98816822
>>98828202I don't know who melan is, retard. I am commenting on this gay uninspired book being hawked.
>>98827959What's your problem, man?
>>98828407Probably "Melan said 2e is not OSR so therefore he's a big nobody and anything he makes is clearly, absolutely, a priori, LE BAD, okay?"
>>98827125>>98827205Fug yes.>>98827281>>98827959Nogameniggers fuming, seething, malding, boiling
>>98828412It's definitely this. He can't bear that Melan articulated it clearly, once and for all, outside the confines of this general, proving that it's the mainstream view that 2e is not OSR rather than a board quirk.
>>98828425Implying I pay attention to OSR blogger faggotry
>>98828842Yes, blogs have never been an important part of the OSR, and we have always been at war with Eastasia! The only OSR spaces that everf mattered are DTRPG and Reddit, amirite?
>>98829293>implying blogs were ever important
>>98829520
>>98827205Can I get a tl;dr on what exactly this is
>>98825945The only way somebody would think flameblade underwhelming is if they're poisoned by nuD&D brainrot.
>>98829578GM advice book from Melan, the Beyond Fomalhaut guy, known for excellent anaylsis on dungeon design, and triggering a local schizo into declaring him a big nobody
>>98827125>>98827205Will pirate and report back whether it's good
>>98827324Are you Anons not reporting this off-topic bullshit, or have the jannies decided that Israel is on topic on /osrg/?
>>98830215It's a discussion about why a major OSR game is banned from any mention on the OSR Reddit, which you can't actually find out on the OSR Reddit because they're jackasses.
>>98827324Well if you go to Westpoint or Harvard you will probably come out being extremely bought into the American system.A shame really.That being said fantasy Rome is cool and his game keeps surprising me on how well everything clicks together compared to the older OSR games.
Is ACKS the only system with as many guides to make your own classes? I have been working on weaning groups off of 5e and been thinking about making a series of race-as-classes in order to get them to try it. Hoping that more exotic ones will at least let them see the appeal. The one player I've started conspiring with is at least rubbing their hands at a race potentially built around flight and such.
>>98831763>Is ACKS the only system with as many guides to make your own classes?As many as what?
>>98831768Arman's ACKS Classmaker was the first thing that came up when I first searched it up. I'm a zoomer who grew up on 3.5 so this will be my first time delving deep into OSR-related content beyond maybe looking at WWN as a possible system for Warcraft, so I don't know if there's a better system for this.
>>98831814Okay well that doesn't answer my actual question and your original grammar is still shit so I'm not sure I've correctly made out what you're asking, but basically it's like this: mechanically speaking ACKS is very similar to any other type of Basic D&D (B/X, OSE) in terms of the scope for novel classes; however, ACKS definitely encourages the creation of such classes more than other equivalent games and you're not likely to find equally elaborate step-by-step guides for other games, no. Most of the time people just sort of design by ear when they make new classes; Basic isn't a very complex system, so most homebrewers feel (often wrongly) like they grok the system and don't need a detailed guide. ACKS in contrast has a whole system for class design based on Macris (the designer) believing that he's been able to boil down the principles of regular Basic class balance and formulate those in numerical terms.
>>98831763Sort of? One of the useful parts of osr games is that a lot of them are easily compatible so more or less, if the game is based on b/x (most of them are) then you can use parts from one for the other and it won't cause problems like it would in 3.5 or other games where class powers and balance are more regulated. I went the other way and remove classes but there's this thing people seemed to like. ACKS could be a good place to look if your wanting more granularity, although most games you don't have to run whole cloth. Overall its at least worth reading, if not playing, Basic/Expert and then messing around but the osr cops won't noknock your apartment if you don't.
>https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/236069/the-almanac-of-fantasy-weather-volume-one-swords-sorceryHas anyone used this? Seems interesting albeit obviously overrpriced
>>98831814You still didn't answer the question, bozo
>>98832111Pointless, imo. Just make a hex flower, per season, per geo region. Ezpzggnore
>>98832111Looks like they have variant wilderness travel rules in there too but I don't think I need that many pages of pic. related. I can see how it would be convenient instead of rolling on a hex flower or table to just work your way down a list but I think at that point I'd cheat and print out the weather almanac from a similar region irl and use that. >looks at the rest of the guy's stuff Its the Seven Voyages guy, makes it more likely the travel rules are good. >He did almanacs for Europe, England, Iceland and Indea too absolute mad man.
>>98832119Sorry. I am suffering from a sickness that has struck me retarded for some reason and thought that was worded in my head. I was asking about if other retroclones or BECMI itself had guide for class creation. Apologies if I'm still unable to be coherent while writing this.>>98831938The numbers and formulas are a lot easier for my autistic brain to handle, but so I might stick with ACKS then.>>98832001>One of the useful parts of osr games is that a lot of them are easily compatibleThank goodness for that. I'll make sure to give B/X a read as well when I feel better and start building my homebrew and pitch for the group once I get an actual grasp on things.
>>98832341NTAYRT>I was asking about if other retroclones or BECMI itself had guide for class creation.Not really. Also, not sure why you qualify BECMI with an "itself". To be clear, ACKS is based on B/X (as in: the B/X rules are a subset of the ACKS rules apart from small corrections), and although BECMI is on-topic, we don't particularly recommend it here. More info in the n00b DMG guide in the OP on why.
>>98832341>The numbers and formulas are a lot easier for my autistic brain to handle, but so I might stick with ACKS then.Yep, reasonable. If you like "Basic but with numbers and formulas" ACKS is the game for you just in general.
>>98832111Not familiar with this product. I'm a little alarmed by the implication that it needs multiple volumes though.That said, I think honestly a booklet of pregenerated weather listed per day over years might be the best solution for weather effects. Just brute forcing that shit instead of trying to create some elegant algorithm based on 1d8 might genuinely give better results faster.
>>98832341All right my apologies if I came off like a dick, we have one particular person who likes to troll this thread with strange questions and I thought you were him. So to answer your question, no that game in particular is really the only one that includes such a deep class creation guide, let alone any class creation guide.The only other one I really know of, is called BX options, and it's not exactly the most in-depth. If you are this new to the osr, you should be sticking to bx, and not home brewing. Seriously, play at least 6 months of weekly sessions of BX by the book rules as written with no alterations. These games are intended to run holistically, the entire system gels with itself, and when you start moving parts around, the function is going to be significantly different, including in ways that Cascade unexpectedly.
>>98832840I think Anon's fine to play ACKS. It's close enough to B/X with extra options that he's unlikely to have any serious issues.
>>98832701I create my own weather almanacs, I use a hex flower, and then with a digital roller I will do an entire 365 day set of rolls, and then in a notebook I write down the weather for each day on a different line, and from there I can plan out exactly what the weather will be like for any given day of the year, and then correlate it directly with the game calendar. It has worked out great for me so far.Goblin punch has some really good hex flowers for weather, or you can make your own, but that's the system that I recommend using. It might be possible to create some type of AI bot that could automate the process for you, but I kind of like doing my homework by hand
>>98832850I still think it's more important to learn with the fundamentals and the basics before moving on to something advanced. This is of extreme importance when you are home brewing, because if you don't have an extremely firm grasp and foundation, then you won't even know which direction you're going , or what goes wrong when something is out of tune
>>98832859That's fair, and I can even agree with you on some idealized level, but if you read Anon's initial post and what type of players he'll be dealing with, it's not that type of situation, you're looking more at "damage mitigation for a cluster of 5heads".Plus, the ACKS framework will at least give Anon a strong structure for homebrewing and prevent (if anything can) going too nuts with power levels and so on.
>>98832851>It has worked out great for me so far.I don't doubt it, but what you're describing is basically just making your own supplement along the same lines as Spalding's. Which, again, is fine, but I think for many referees just downloading/buying the existing one will be faster and more pleasant.
Is there a meaningful way to differentiate armor penetration and accuracy in any OSR system? I'm working on gun rules and buckshot is ruining my life. I'm using LotFP style "guns get +4 to hit at close range because armor piercing", but there's no mechanical difference between that and "buckshot gets +4 to hit due to multiple projectiles." Please help me, I think I'm losing my mind.
>>98833012>Is there a meaningful way to differentiate armor penetration and accuracy in any OSR system?Armour penetration only applies to armour. You're basically talking about the weapon vs AC system of AD&D and Traveller.
>>98833012Shotguns in my game do 2d6 within a 100' range, and 1d6 beyond that range (with an included attack penalty). Not sure if that helps.
>>98833012Buckshot should realistically get a penalty to penetrating steel armor if anything, surely? The way I'd handle it is giving a shotgun higher damage and no AC bonus/possibly a malus.
>>98833012So here's what I do for this:Shotguns using buckshot deal 3d6 damage with +1 to hit, within short range. At medium range they deal 2d6 with +2 to hit. At long range they deal 1d6 with +3 to hit.
>>98833036So essentially no, is your answer.>>98833062My logic is that buckshot is more likely to hit a vulnerable area and deal a meaningful wound, thus a to-hit bonus. >>98833070That has some appeal. I might steal it.
>>98833088>So essentially no, is your answer.Wondering if you're retarded or you've never read Chainmail, the PHB, and Traveller.
>>98832859>>98832904ACKS does a pretty good job at slow rolling it's additional systems out to players in my experience. In my experience at low levels it is mostly remembering that you can cleave and thief skills being significantly less terrible. But everything else is introduced at a pace where players see it coming and understand why they need to interact with it.
>>98833070>buckshot gets more accurate at long range I know most of /tg/ is noguns but this is pretty off. If you're trying to run with the abstraction that at least its still hitting something then the bonus would apply more so at close range. That's basically the whole point of shotguns.
>>98833012>"guns get +4 to hit at close range because armor piercing", but there's no mechanical difference between that and "buckshot gets +4 to hit due to multiple projectiles."Working as intended. Decrease damage as range increases. Trying to differentiate between armour penetration and accuracy is a fools errand with combat rounds as abstracted as d&d is.
>>98833375An accuracy penalty at hand-to-hand range is sensible though, since the target isn't going to stand there and let you point it at him. Accuracy should peak just outside HTH
>>98833375I'm pretty sure he's trying to represent dispersion vs damage, but that varies WILDLY based on the velocity, projectiles and design. Plated, cupped 00 buck - the primo modern stuff - is lethal out to about 100 yards while standard #4 buck is worthless at 15. I'm not familiar with LotFP but if we're talking about a black powder blunderbuss crammed with whatever was lying around I'd say that they're going to basically be useless past 20 yards.
>>98833808That's literally where they're the most accurate because it doesn't matter if the enemy is trying to get out of the way on account of the buckshot.
>>98834673Try replacing "get out of the way" with "get in your face and stab you, while preventing you from raising the gun in the process"
>>98833813>basically be useless past 20 yards.This is the way. Its thematic, do big damage up close to everything in the firing arc. D&D combat isn't built to handle things like grains, pellet quantity, or choke, or modern rate of fire even. Trying to make it "more realistic" unravels the whole abstraction of 10 second combat rounds, the attack roll and AC.
>>98834680>Just run at the shotgun. Good idea, you should test that out.
>>9883471221 foot rule, dumbass. If you're in hand-to-hand combat range already, the gun is not an "I-win" button anymore. Try getting it onto a target who's in the process of hacking your arms to pieces while you try to raise it. Maybe you can shoot his toes off before you die.
>>98834728Give it a try next time you're feeling frisky.
>>98834784I accept your concession
>>98834728>21 foot rule, dumbass.The 21-foot rule is SPECIFICALLY about drawing and firing a handgun from an OWB holster in reaction to a surprise attack, ie. self-defense situations. The distances shrink dramatically based on readiness, from about 15 feet if the hand is resting on the weapon and 10 feet or less if the weapon is already in-hand. Go watch some bodycam videos and see how many roody-poos at gunpoint manage to take a grand total of like two steps before taking a bullet. I mean yeah lol9mm and all so they don't always drop on the spot but the time between "suspect starts moving" and "suspect takes a bullet" is a fraction of a second and it doesn't matter if it's a wheellock or a machine gun.
>>98834854>drawing and firing a handgunCorrect, but larger guns will need more time to bring to point due to inertia, and longer weapons are much easier for an attacker to strike and foul your shot. Combat range is 10 feet, I wouldn't even try to raise a fucking flintlock and get it onto a guy under 10 feet away wielding a sword, I'd try to block his swing and reach for a sidearm. This is all a good demonstration of why D&D's combat abstraction and 10 second (or 1 minute) rounds make firearms a problem, though.
>>98834688NAYRT but I agree with you. Almost all problems with D&D combat house rules come from trying to make it more realistic via granularity.
>>98834854>a fraction of a second and it doesn't matter if it's a wheellock or a machine gunI know you're right about the rest, but you're wrong about this part, a wheellock can take a full second to ignite the pan if you're unlucky. Think of a classic disposable lighter, it can take a few tries to make it catch.
>>98834875>I wouldn't even try to raise a fucking flintlock and get it onto a guy under 10 feet away wielding a sword, I'd try to block his swing and reach for a sidearm.I'd sure as shit try the shot. It would take longer to draw a sidearm than raise and fire a longarm and even if you miss and don't blow a giant hole in the lootbox trying to take your head off, a longarm - especially with a bayonet - is no slouch as a melee weaponReally, though, once you get to the point where someone is close enough to bum rush you then you should already have switched to your sword and brace of pistols.>>98834905>a wheellock can take a full second to ignite the pan if you're unlucky. Think of a classic disposable lighter, it can take a few tries to make it catch.Lmao what. Wheellocks were hands-down the most reliable and least-delayed firing mechanism until the percussion cap. I'd trust a wheellock - maintained by either myself or someone I could trust implicitly, naturally - over anything using a flint or a slow match any day of the week.
>>98831814I wouldn't call it "guides," exactly, but if class creation is what you're after check out Goblin Laws of Gaming/GLOG. Every class is just a set of ability templates added to a base adventurer, so all you need to come up with is a passive, starting equipment for a level 1 character, and at least four abilities sorted by tier.Trying to make new b/x, 1e, or 0e classes is way, way more difficult because the game itself fights you the whole way. It takes a deep understanding of the whole rule system and how character abilities actually interact with it in play, because things that don't sound particularly powerful can have huge impacts and things that sound like they'd have huge impacts can be surprisingly weak at the table.If that's your goal, I'd suggest starting with the existing classes and changing their description but not their mechanics, instead.
>>98834875>I'd try to block his swing and reach for a sidearm.The smart move is to block with the barrel on target and then shoot. It's pretty much exactly the same as giving point with a bayonet except you're firing instead.
>>98834875>(or 1 minute) roundsat that point wargame style combat resolution with a few modifiers seems the only way to go really.
>>98835930>Goblin Laws of Gaming/GLOGWow, I haven't heard anybody tout that pile of jank in years. It's an unusable pile of "cool ideas" that never actually came together to make a playable game, despite many people trying very hard for years.
>>98838336That's not true at all (and pretty recklessly salty). It's completely playable, it's just very limited because it only covers level 1-4; I'd analogize it to those guys (e.g. Jeff Rients) who were playing Holmes Basic-only games. It's nothing near as bad as NuSR slop like Troika or Knave in terms of unplayability and lack of testing.
>>98838640Nah, it's shit.
>>98838640>anorectal cancer is not as bad as testicular cancer.Debatable.
>>98838785>>98839567You guys are getting way too mad over a Basic variant. You don't have to like it, I don't either, but it's genuinely too nondescript for this level of salt.
>>98839674Welcome to 4chan, where people will give you their honest opinions, and are under no obligation to be polite or fake-nice about it.
>>98839696Your point? It's simply my honest opinion that there's no rational basis for getting this mad over Boldvay Masic, even though it's a pretty pointless clone.
>>98839766>"this mad">implying saying "it's shit" means people are furiousNigga please>Boldvay MasicMan, if you try to pile all the GLOG shit together at one table, the game you will get barely resemble D&D anymore
>>98839770It's less>it's shitand more the>pile of jank>unplayable(demonstrably untrue, Skreptus alone has several infinity-length campaign reports of using it)>2e I mean anorectal cancerthat sounds disproportionately hoesmad over something bland but inoffensive. Normally when people have a critique they base it on real issues instead of just going full>every ACKS rule is actually so bad and just makes the game worse and Macris isn't my real dad!!!Like, if anons had written a critique of the allegedly creative and fun spellcasting system I'd be right there agreeing with them, crippling nerfs that don't scale well aren't some genius replacement for Vancian casting. But instead the original complaintanon opted for inaccurate nonsense. Can't do that on the autism board!
>>98839888You sound disproportionately hoesmad over the fact that some Anons think GLOG is crap.
>>98839888>Skreptus alone has several infinity-length campaign reports of using itThat says everything about him and nothing about GLOG.
>>98840065>no uA strange waft of ocean salt...
>>98840065>No UHey Fish, how're things going? Glad to see you're not even pretending you're 'gone and never coming back honest guv, pinkie promise' by this point.
>>98840072>If you think GLOG is crap then you're fishfaglollmao even
>>98840077>Too stupid to recognize he's being mocked for his argument style, rather than what he's arguingBless your little down syndrome socks.
>>98840087
>>98840070It certainly does say something about GLOG, namely that it's literally playable.
>>98840090>Fuck, I'm retarded, better pretend they're just trolling so I don't have to admit itTrolling implies I'm saying something to get a rise out of you. I'm absolutely, unironically, and without a shred of humour, calling you one of the simple folk because you can't articulate a position without aping the arguments of those around you.Instead of acting like an actual human being and forming your own position, you are the monkey that sees and the monkey that does.
>>98838336I've run two campaigns in it. Maybe you're just really dumb.
>>98835930>glog >It takes a deep understanding of the whole rule system and how character abilities actually interact with it in playFiddling with b/x isn't rocket surgery. It might not work out well by 8th level or whatever but that's not a disaster.
>>98838640It covers up to level 10, then grants a +1HP for every 5k XP after that. It just makes sure that all a character's abilities are online by level 4, which I think is actually pretty good design.
>>98840374Said by someone who's never going to make it remotely near 8th level and knows it.
>>98840389>playoid lashes out in pain as it strikes you lmao
>>98840374Seconding this. It's true that a total oob can fuck up the core engine but pretending that B/X is some sort of complex, finely tuned 4e-esque thing that can be easily crashed with house ruling is just nonsensical. If you just keep your hands off the fundamentals it's really robust.
so the party is almost all level 4 and 5 characters. any recommendations on a fun module for players just reaching expert content (OSE)?
>>98844761Isle of Dread is a classic and plays well, but you might consider it too basic. Khosura has a level span of 3-8 but it's a megadungeon, so I'm unsure if you want to make that potential commitment. Both are good though.
>>98844761Misty Isles of the Eld.
Does ACKS apply the 1 foot = 1 yard rule from O/A/B/XD&D in the wilderness? I don't see any indication of that in the rulebook, but if it doesn't, aren't combat movement speeds outdoors a bit too slow with respect to bow ranges?
>>98847166Found it, page 272>Combat and Running Speed>Dungeons have cramped spaces and uneven terrain that slows movement, but wilderness is much more open. Therefore, combat speed and running speed are three times faster in the wilderness than in the dungeon (i.e. Combat and Running SpeedDungeons have cramped spaces and uneven terrain that slows movement, but wilderness is much more open. Therefore, combatspeed and running speed are three times faster in the wilderness than in the dungeon (i.e. effectively measured in yards rather thanfeet). This is further modified by the Speed multiplier for the terrain, as shown on the adjoining table. For instance, an adventurer with a combat speed of 40’ has a combat speed of 120’ in the wilderness, but this is reduced to 60’ in swamp. Note that terrain also has implications for wilderness encounter distance (p. 280). measured in yards rather thanfeet). This is further modified by the Speed multiplier for the terrain, as shown on the adjoining table. For instance, an adventurer with a combat speed of 40’ has a combat speed of 120’ in the wilderness, but this is reduced to 60’ in swamp. Note that terrain also has implications for wilderness encounter distance (p. 280).But IUC missile ranges are NOT increased in the Wilderness?
>>98847223>But IUC missile ranges are NOT increased in the Wilderness?I'm no ACKSpert, but why wouldn't they be?
>>98847223>>98847596They just kinda are not but ranges are just higher in general than other games.
>>98848099Not by much though. The big difference is that archery ranges are increased further against groups.
>>98809797>>98809801>>98809806>>98809810>>98809815B/X does also have naval combat rules (the eXpert rules, actually).
It really, really, really bothers me that the monster manuals don't have neither the morale of the monster or the initiative bonus. And the OSE monster manual has the morale for each monster but doesn't have the initiative bonus.Any rule of thumb for deciding init. bonus on the fly?My idea thus far is: If they are flying monsters: +1If they are quicker than a human but the same size or smaller: +1If they are particullarly slow monsters, like slimes or turtles or slugs: -1So a panther would be +1, a stirge would be +1,
>>98850355I like them a lot.Though i'm stealing this idea (>>98809806) that if the crew fails morale the ship gets captured.
>>98850372>init bonuses I generally don't do this. Its a D6 roll following from the surprise results if necessary. If I were making a call it wouldn't be anything more than +1 or -1, I'd just give it to the side with more than +1 bonus. Defaulting to most things have morale 7 and adjusting from there has been so automatic for me I don't even remember where that idea came from.
>>98850550The thing is that I run an optional rule for individual initiative, so yeah, that's kinda important because when you use individual initiative characters can get a +1 or +2 to their init based on their DEX modifier, and if monsters never get any bonus, it's just unfair. Also it makes sense for monsters to be quicker than the players (when not considering surprise). Some monster may be weak but compensate with speed. That is a good design choice that creates realistic and interesting strategic considerations.
>>98850372>init. bonusWhy though?
>>98850590>>98850582
>>98850582>>98850595>monsters to be quicker than the playersInitiative has very little to do with speed. Given most of the round is feinting, dodging, and parrying, it's more about being able to find the opening than anything else.
>>98850600So you are saying that is impossible for a monster type to have a bonus to feinting, dodging, and parrying? Also you are not helping with my question.
>>98850582>individual initiative >good design choice >creates realistic choices Not where I go and I find group initiative makes the players plan strategically in a war way rather than an arena fight way but ydy. Take a look at using ad&d's segments if you really want to go that way. Overall design wise trying to make things equal between PCs and NPCs starts getting more fucked over time because the PCs will fight more times than the NPCs and you're getting into balanced fights logic more than I want to do with osr games.
>>98850621>and I find group initiative makes the players plan strategicallyThe horror!!!>Overall design wise trying to make things equal between PCs and NPCs It's not as much as making things equal as to make things make sense. If the characters can get a DEX bonus why can't the monsters even if it would make sense considering their physiology?
>>98850635>It's not as much as making things equal as to make things make senseIts fun seeing this happen again and again and again over the decades. Give the monsters the initiative bonus. While you're at it they'll need stats so all the other bonuses line up too.
>>98850668>While you're at it they'll need stats so all the other bonuses line up too.That's not really necessary. I've seen nu-OSR systems that literally state an init bonus without rolling every stat.
>>98850680>I've seen nusr do a thing!Okay. Don't worry about it too much. Going through the overbuild for realism's sake rabbithole is part of the path to Zoz.
>>98850695Mind you, in case you didn't understand, that the rules for individual initiative are present in OSE, so it's not nuOSR.Even Gary himself admitted in the DMG that it would be better to roll individual initiative but the only reason the rules are for group initiative are because in big battles it's not feasible to roll that many dice each round:>"While it is not accurate to roll one die for all individuals comprising each party, it is a convenient and necessary expedient. Separate rolls could be made for each member of two small groups, for instance, but what happens to this simple, brief determination if one party consists of 9 characters and 6 henchmen and the other of 7 giants and 19 direwolves, let us say?"All in all idk why you insist so much with being a clown. I literally just asked for advice, answer or GTFO. I don't care if you don't use that rule, does how you play at your table answer my question? no? Then you are wasting time here. You are not changing how I play at my table nor I want to change the way you play.
>>98850743>I literally just asked for advice, answer or GTFO. The advise you got was >don't but you want to anyway so you will. Its okay. Its just advice, you don't have to take it seriously same way I don't take you very seriously. Someone else might have ideas that are more to your liking or not, that's how posting here works. >wasting time lol you too friend.
>>98850755Exactly, it baffles me because I asked a particular question about something and you really think your opinion about something else and how you play is relevant at all.Also, yeah, it's just advice I don't take seriously, but I would be surprised if anyone took that advice seriously considering how poorly justified it is. I wonder how you even justify your rules to your players. You probably don't and just say "if you don't like it get the fuck out". I wonder how you even have friends to play with.
>>98850613
>>98850832Ok, then if it's possible for a monster type to have a bonus to feinting, dodging, and parrying, then according to your same logic it makes sense that monsters have initiative bonuses. You still did not answer my question though.
Would by the book AD&D or B/X (not Chainmail) make for a good *wargame* (not RPG)? Say, compared to e.g. Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
>Interested in OSR>Start doing research, watching videos>Find people criticising OSR by how complicated its rules are>Constantly see people bring up "THAC0" as an example of how bad it is>None of them actually explain what it is>Look it up>It's literally just basic arithmeticOkay I'm gonna guess OSR isn't actually complicated and all the people saying it is are just retarded theatre kids.
>>98850743I mean, it's right there from the mouth of Gary himself: group initiative is a necessary expedient.Realism in combat was never the point.
>>98850993I'm gonna be 100% real with you. Mask off, no trolling, no jokes or any bullshit despite how I normally post on here:I have been playing tabletop games and D&D for 27 years, and it was only when I discovered OSR that the rules for tabletop gaming actually clicked and made sense. The rules, philosophy, and discussions of B/X, AD&D, and OSR/NuSR clones are all so simple that you actually have to overcome your own preconceived notions regarding how this stuff should be handled.When I first learned about oldschool style play, I would ask really dumb questions, not sure how to interpret things. And every single step of the way people have confirmed that it's either really simple, or that there's 40+ years of documented discussion to clarify it. THAC0 is literally just very basic math that takes no effort to do after you get through a couple combat encounters.Now that I've gone OSR, I cannot go back. Yes, I will play stuff that pisses /osrg/ off, but it's very obvious that somewhere along the way the design philosophy of tabletop gaming went WAY off the rails, and it can be corrected if you just look at it's implementation as an Adventure simulation game, rather than a ""role playing"" theater kid game or an attempt to imitate video games.
>>98850993>Okay I'm gonna guess OSR isn't actually complicated and all the people saying it is are just retarded theatre kids.Pretty much but more like retards in general rather tan specifically theatre kids. The ruling side of things and abstraction over realism can cause problems for the more autistic in the other direction. Its medium and easily adjustable up or down in granularity and scale depending on what you're into with easy to make rulings on as needed during play while getting away from a lot of game-as-script style play that makes up the majority of ttrpgs for decades. There's a lot of things to niggle over and fiddle with to get the way you want and works best for your group but still a lot of material you can use easily and procedural methods that are easy to talk with others about. Its good shit.
>>98850908>good eehhhh... take a look at Battlesystem. Not my thing but you might like it. >compared to WHFB Really depends on the edition there. Do you mean a skirmish wargame or larger scale battles?
>>98848684Probably a better way to do it imo. Hitting a single moving human at 100 yards os next to impossible but hitting a several hundred feet wide dozen foot deep formation of them is another story.
>>98850993Depending on whether you're doing full AD&D it can be more complicated than modern D&D, though even then character customization and combat tends to be less complicated
>>98850908No.You'd probably be better off looking at the earlier editions of WFB for that to be honest, 2e and 3e specifically. WFRP was written to integrate directly with 3e IIRC.
>>98850993You already got good answers so I'm just going to note that THAC0 isn't even really an OSR mechanic. All the old-school editions use sets of to-hit matrices and THAC0 is only employed in one abbreviated monster listing (in AD&D) as a shorthand.
>>98851829>take a look at Battlesystem. lol noIt's crapAnd not even D&D>Do you mean a skirmish wargame or larger scale battles?Both. The rules for the two are basically the same in AD&D (and hence in B/X, by omission).
>>98852090Yeah, I'll adopt those rules. But I think I will switch to ×3 movement only when massed units are involved. As long as it's skirmish / individual units I think it makes sense to keep the scale the same as in dungeons.Otherwise closing the distance to archers becomes trivially easy, particularly if you take into account that ACKS uses +0/-2/-5 as range modifiers instead of +1/0/-1 as well as one arrow per round instead of two. I'm okay with nerfing archers a bit, but that's far too much.Also a movement rate of 24 five-foot hexes or 36 3.33-foot hexes is silly.So at the individual unit scale, I will keep using feet even if outdoors, and 3 or 5 foot hexes (will experiment a bit here). When I switch to 10-men units, I will switch to 3 or 5 yard hexes and increase the speeds from feet to yards.
>>98852545>looking at the earlier editions of WFB for that to be honest, 2e and 3e specificallyI did a few years ago but never actually played it. Will take another look.
>>98852928>So at the individual unit scale, I will keep using feet even if outdoors, and 3 or 5 foot hexes (will experiment a bit here). When I switch to 10-men units, I will switch to 3 or 5 yard hexes and increase the speeds from feet to yards.*And use the ACKS bonuses against mass units.This kinda shafts spells, though, since they will get neither a range bonus nor a mass targeting bonus. Will experiment a bit.
>>98852908>it's crap True but there's no accounting for taste. >BothFew editions of whfb do both well. 6th might work out but most wargames do better when focusing on a more specific scale of engagement unless you want to become very abstract. D&D gets into the PCs being quite powerful compared to standard soldiers so you might be able to make 4-5th herohammer edition work.
>>98850993Why don't you try engaging with the books themselves instead of getting tertiary opinions from retards who likely don't even play games?And yes thaco is indeed stupid. It's not complicated or difficult, but it's counterintuitive, which is why it was abandoned. For example, if you get a bonus from a +that shield, it gives you a negative to your armor class, which is a bonus!
>>98854175Yeah I use THAC0 as a litmus test to see if someone is larping or not. If they think ascending AC isn't better there's a good chance they're a nogames and/or trying too hard.I do make exceptions for people who just grew up with it and prefer it because of sentimentality and familiarity. But someone like that generally isn't trying to defend it on the internet.
>>98854175>>98856678Gay
>Rob Kuntz interviewPart one:https://rumble.com/v7gsqfk-rob-kuntz-part-one-the-last-man-standing-nerdcognito-episode-351.htmlPart two:https://rumble.com/v7h3fxy-rob-kuntz-part-ii-im-not-dead-yet-nerdcognito-episode-352.html(Haven't watched it yet, just sharing.)
>>98808788It says there's nothing there
>>98856780Great argument very compelling, now fuck off
>>98858193I'm not sure what the guy has left to say, and people always seem to ask him the same questions, but thanks for the link.
>>98858275No U
Just got Melan's book – holy shit it's big. Legit the size of the DMG. Don't underestimate this thing, anons. It looks great, destined to be a classic, I think.
>>98858636But fishfag looked at a thumbnail and declared it soulless! It's ogre, anon!
>>98858636Table of contents?
>>98858636PDF nao
>>98858636Melan, this is kinda sad. You know you can just buy an ad, right? Have some dignity.
>>98858706It's hard to see how Melan could ever recover but he did it somehow. Kek>>98858722Don't have one but Melan's announcement post on his blog had a decent rundown IIRC, go look it up.>>98858783The shipping email said PDF's dropping in January.>>98858798>reee shill reeeKill yourself outside Minecraft, Fishfag.
>>98858863Fishfag only deadnames him as Gábor. I respect Melan's transition.
>>98858866>Fishfag only deadnames him as GáborNah, he didn't even know who Melan was until recently, since he never had any interaction with the OG OSR community, on account of being a nogames redditor
>>98858722I'll post it when mine arrives. >>98858863>Don't have onYou have the book but it doesn't have a table of contents or you're not >>98858636 ?
>>98858894This. He only found out when anons linked Melan's post about why 2e isn't OSR by any means. At that point Fishfag started screeching and shitting himself over the unimportance of Hungarians everywhere, but before he didn't know and didn't care.
>>98858913I have the book and it has a ToC but I don't have a digital copy and can't be bothered to type one out when Melan already posted something like it.Anyway, good luck fighting the speg, anons; I'm going to retire with the book for now.
>>98858923...anon you just take a picture of it with your phone. That's what I'm going to do. I've gotten enough EMDT material and looked at enough pirated copies of things I trust it enough to buy but it was notably discouraging to not have a table of contents image in the blogpost. Didn't have to be the whole thing but an idea seems like it would have helped out by reducing a doubt barrier.>>98858866>tfw I learned Gábor is a common name and that Hungary is a strange magical place
>>98858920>the unimportance of Hungarians everywhererich, coming from an Albanian
>>98858894>>98858920Shut the fuck up about some anonymous 4chan poster. If you're going to talk about personalities instead of the game, at least talk about designers or historical figures of importance
>>98859777>newfag hasn't run into our local schizo shitposter yetHuh, he hasn't been around in a while, has he? Let's hope he finally fucked off after all these years
>>98851787>it's very obvious that somewhere along the way the design philosophy of tabletop gaming went WAY off the railsIt all comes back to Hickmann and the fact that what was a game, to be played, became instead a story, to be told, at the hands of failed mormon high fantasy writers.Always has, always will.
>>98860069>failedActually I think a big part of the problem was that the Dragonlance novels made a lot of money for TSR. If they had flopped, then the internal culture shift towards the new school might have died on the vine.
>>98860166Exactly one good thing came out of Dragonlance.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oywjqkBVLg4This song.
>>98859600lmaodubs of truth
>>98860166This is what I've always thought.
>>98860229That was unexpectedly cool, thanks for linking, anon!
Major "OSR discord server" just posted this. Your thoughts?
>>98827125Damn I do want it in physical but $35 for shipping is a lot for one book. I guess I could buy a few in bulk like Khosura and City of the Ape Men while i'm at it to spread out the pain.
>>98861404my thought is jennell jaquays was a genius and the fact they don't mention her shows they don't even care about OSR
>>98861404I got no problem with any of that, go outrage farm somewhere else
>>98861404OSR in the redditsphere has been co-opted by the usual suspects, it's a known thing.They actually ban most of the major OSR creators because they don't want the competition for their drivethru slop.
>>98861404Reddit faggotry. Which server
>>98861579It's just called "OSR"
Old school systems are better because they were created by White men that liked the game. Not larpers that use it to push agendas.
>>98858227Yah. I have a big updated version for the next OSR thread.
>>98861416Fair warning, it seems like you won't save this way. I tried throwing in Ape-Men and a couple Echoes issues with my order but those were marked as shipping separately, probably because of the bulk of the Gamemaster's Guidelines book. It's honking massive. (Didn't get my copy yet, also ended up not ordering the other books for now because of the above)
>>98861454>I got no problem with any of thatWait, scratch that, I missed the soviet flag. Marxists can go to hell where they belong. No gods, no masters, no fucking backstabbing tyrannical bolshevik cunts
>>98861404>some niggers somewhere are retardedMy thoughts are that you shouldn't post this shit here to outrage farm.
>>98861767>>98861781Weren't the OSR guys accused of being Satanists?
>>98861898By retards. Sort of like the "White Christians" poster you replied to, Gygax was raised a Jehovah's Witness and had no interest in religion; Arneson wasn't a churchgoing man either.
>>98861908>Gygax was raised a Jehovah's Witness and had no interest in religionGygax appears to have been an active JW during the early '70s and his stated reason for not including angels as statted beings in the MM is that it would be blasphemy.
>>98861898>accused of Venger was an actual Satanist of the traditionally edgy and boring kind. There was an lotfp bit about playing dnd as magical ritual. Its going to have a smattering of culture war pagan, witch, punk and satanist larping retardation where some of them think they're anti daddy and some of them think they're anti mommy and this sort of dress up will increase sales and dethrone their ideological opposition. All of it is just posturing bullshit best and easily ignored through the filter of >is this useful to my game? >If Y use, ignore commentary >if N, don't use, ignore commentary If you have to give a shit about the political side don't pay to support people who you hate and/or hate you but its very sociopolitically insignificant compared to anything one could do instead well off-topic for this board if they actually gave a fuck about whatever cause they're parroting.
>>98861926Fair, I always heard he was lapsed by the early 80s
SotB anon here, would like input/opinions.Campaign is coming back off hiatus this weekend at the inaugural Melbourne OSRcon (any Aussies in thread lmk if you want details).I've done a bit of restocking, and due to time limitations I'm starting the session in the Kobold Korner tavern.So, my players never followed up any leads on the Evil Priest from B2, who I connected with the chaotic acolytes in the Quiet halls and some other bit & pieces into an evil faction. I had always been wary of ticking over a world event timer/countdown until the chaotic caves were united to attack the keep, because as my players were focussed on Stonehell they didn't pay attention to anything else. It didn't seem fun, or interesting, and I didn't want to force them to play a wargame defending the keep.Anyway, I think the time passing is a good opportunity to change the status quo - would it be FOE storygaming to end the session with them returning to their base and seeing in the distance smoke rising from the Keep? I sorta thought it would be cool to put the Chaotic temple from B2 there by magic for the party to explore if they chose.
>>98861931>would it be FOE storygaming to end the session with them returning to their base and seeing in the distance smoke rising from the Keep?Arneson did it; you can take that however you like
>>98861931If you have not in any way at all informed the players about potential threats it doesn't come off well and feels a bit forced. If you have had some indication that there are evil things brewing and afoot that have now gathered power while the player characters were off delving for loot is works better as game world building, player agency and be less jarring.
>>98861931I'm with >>98861956, also you could theoretically run a con wargame of the "Siege of the Keep" and let that determine the outcome which would also be a less forced way to potentially introduce such an outcome.
>>98861956There have been several times where the party have had the chance to track, investigate or follow up on the evil priest's activities, but there's no money in it, so why would they? They never returned to a half explored lair (where they encountered a chaotic cleric) when the quest giver told them they were yet to find the magic item he sent them after.I don't know that I could have informed them of potential threats,I would have if they had ever taken one step in that direction.
>>98861994>quest giver told them they were yet to find the magic item he sent them afterSlightly gay, what are players doing taking fetch quests from randos anyway?
>>98862002Yeah I stopped doing that sort of thing pretty quickly. In the early days I wanted there to be more going on around Stonehell. That fetch quest was actually my first try at running hexcrawl.I think my players & I all kinda prefer to just focus on the Megadungeon without distraction, it just feels too simple or easy or something.
>>98861994Sounds like it will work out fine then. I tend to hand rumours out like candy just to make sure the players know there's other stuff going on in the world erring on the side of more information rather than less. >there's no money in it Overall I figure everyone's working with the basic gameplay conceit that if there are dungeons there is treasure so I would have given them a rumour the evil priest was still alive, then at some point gathering followers or had a base camp and by then they can investigate or not but I've done my due diligence while tracking the priest as a local faction in my notes. You've got a central megadungeon as the main focus and I haven't done that so might be orienting the campaign differently enough there aren't a lot of exterior concerns.
>>98861931I don't think you thought this through. If you eradicate the Keep, where are they going to go for a safe base in civilization where they can bring their loot to level up? You're basically undermining the structure of your whole campaign if you don't have an alternative lined up, and those alternative can only be either 1) a more distant town or something making travel to the dungeon permanently jankier or 2) the Beep on the Corderlands which they somehow just never noticed was next door until this moment, which is stupid.You say you're all focused on just doing Stonehell and not invested in anything outside the megadungeon, but then you're talking about instigating an event which will force the players to care about other shit for potentially several sessions. How does that make sense?In a standard B2 playthrough the Keep getting destroyed by the forces of Chaos is actually fine since it's just a level 1 module and the players are expected to move on either way after a few sessions, but when you're using it as the base for a megadungeon game the situation's different.
>>98862152Yeah you're identifying the issues, but that's emergent gameplay no? Where is the next town? How do you transport loot there? Can the keep be stormed and returned to its former state?I don't want to do any of that. But it feels like it should happen rather than the Party's delves happening in a vacuum. Isn't that OSR?
>>98862161Arneson had Castle Blackmoor be conquered when the players ignored the surface threats for more dungeon delving. They lost access to the dungeons below until they could reclaim the castle.
>>98861579NTAYRTRainbow OSR, formerly Purple OSR
>>98861781The NuSR scene and their queers for Palestine predditors are also white men, though. The difference with respect to Gary and Dave is not in sex or race, it's that you cannot make good games if you're more interested in politics bringing down western civilisation in this case, but it could be anything else that takes precedence over gaming than playing games
>>98861931Whatever you decide to do keep us updated!
>>98861930That was because of the drugs.
>>98861826Ah well, guess i'm going to have to bite the bullet. Guess i'll wait until payday.
Any osr games with an official table for random flaws in alchemical/herbal potions?Like a wild magic surge table but things that can only affect the drinker.Wanting to do cheap potions/herbal elixirs that are more risky but what peasants and working class are likely to use.
>>98862161>Isn't that OSR?IMO this is one of the (real, genuine, not som NSR/2e horseshit) differences of play style within the OSR: you can do a monofocus megadungeon game and that's fine, or you can do a wider-scale sandbox which is also fine (Anon correctly identifies Blackmoor as the obvious forerunner to your situation in this latter type of game). It's obviously a matter of taste and up to you how exactly you want to frame your campaign, however if you and the players have been all in on the megadungeon so far you do need to realize that you're basically changing styles mid-game.
>>98862912Welcome to the thread, Anon!The DMG table for motion miscibility is probably too harsh for your goals, but perhaps you can take inspiration from a couple of them.
>>98862912>>98863034The ACKS Treasure Tome has its own expanded table for potion miscibility. Again not strictly what you are looking for, but perhaps there's something you'll like.
>>98862912>>98863034>>98863036A third option is the ACKS Treasure Tome list of random powers. These are generic, but you could pick the ones you like and fit your theme
>>98862912>>98863034>>98863036>>98863049A fourth option is to go through the PHB spell lists, and use the existing spell as possible effects.
>>98862912>>98863034>>98863036>>98863049>>98863062The bottom line of my suggestion (that I should have placed at the top) is to make your own table by going through materials you have, pick what you like, and repurpose it. Surely the stuff you find will give you additional ideas.
Fifth option: One more table from the DMG: Minor Malevolent Effects. These were originally meant for artifacts, but I think many of the effects might work pretty well for what you want.
>>98863110Thats the closest to what i am after, thanks
>>98863127cheers
How do you keep subhuman degenerate freaks out of the hobby?
>>98865019you can’t. you just have to keep them away from your table.
>>98865019Make catgirls a playable race.
>>98865019just ban political arguments at your tableand no, orcs being evil is not political. neither is an NPC being gay. you know what i'm talking about.
>>98862912It's the opposite of a game with an official table, but you could check out>https://roll1d12.blogspot.com/2012/02/unpleasant-potion-side-effects.html(and also search the blog for "potion" as there are many other entries, less directly relevant but still potentially useful).
>>98865201Some anon here already did that
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