Dialis editio>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·>>25580183>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw>Mέγα τὸ ANE·https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg>Work in progress FAQhttps://rentry dot co/n8nrkoAll Classical languages are welcome.
For Greekanons
any of you bros ever try writing a book or translating one into your TL? if so, how did it go?
>>25612188Take heart. Chapter XLV is a step up in difficulty even from that, and the rape of Lucretia episode is IIRC where the book transitions to unadapted Latin. After that, you've more or less reached the peak of the book's difficulty. Some parts are more difficult than others, but the difference in difficulty is no longer due to graded writing.If the book is really excruciating, then that might be a signal to take a break and spend some time with something easier or something of special interest to you personally. If you liked the historical content of the Livy chatpers, the student reader "Fabulae ab Urbe Condita" will be gratifyingly easy to read in comparison, and also gives a good overview of a lot of the important figures and events from Roman history through the end of the Republic.https://geoffreysteadman.com/fabulae-ab-urbe-condita/
iacio
>>25612986rerollan>>25612948I've had the opposite experience with Livy but I read a lot of Caesar first and I think the carryover is helping a lot.
Ah, splendid to discover the Franks are, in fact, Trojans. Quick easy read for the whole thing. >SIGEBERT OF GEMBLOUX VITA BREVIOR SIGEBERTI REGIS > Postquam Graeci nobilem Phrygiae urbem everterunt, Aeneas et Antenor nobiles Trojanorum, cum reliquiis Trojanorum ad exteras nationes se contulerunt. Aeneam quidem ad Italiam venisse, et Romani imperii fundamenta jecisse etiam a scholaribus cantatur. At duodecim millia Trojanorum, qui Antenorem secuti sunt, Scythiae regiones pervagati, circa Meothidas paludes consederunt, et ab Antenore Antenoridae vocati sunt. Hinc et in Virgilio legitur:>Antenor potuit mediis elapsus Achivis,>Illyricos penetrare sinus, atque intima tutus>Regna Liburnorum, et fontem superare Timavi.
>>25613006>the Franks are, in fact, TrojansActually the TRVE HISTORY that yuropoors are hiding is that Aeneas travelled through a wormhole to 1700's colonial America, assumed the name George Washington, and founded the United States.
>>25613063Well, you don’t have to make anything ridiculous like that up. It’s enough to state the verifiable historical truth that Brutus of Troy settled Britain, thus that the founding stock of America was British (Trojan).However there was one American who was secretly a time traveler from ancient greece but he was a mild-mannered pro slavery advocate, confederate veteran, and classics professor by the name of Basil L. Gildersleeve who singlehandedly made American classics a thing.
>>25613006> circa Meothidas paludes consederuntMaeotian swamp is the Sea of Azov region. It’s where the Sauromatae and Enareis shaman(esses) lived circa 400 bc. Also though a Trojan origin for Franks is still viable though because of Marseillaise and south coast port cities which were founded by Greeks.
>>25613111> However there was one American who was secretly a time traveler from ancient greece but he was a mild-mannered pro slavery advocate, confederate veteran, and classics professor by the name of Basil L. Gildersleeve who singlehandedly made American classics a thing.The confederates definitely were Troy and the irl Wilusians (minor Hittite city which just wanted freedom from Greece and its own sphere of influence/ trade routes and was denied that).The Unionists and their neoliberal offspring in DC today are like the worst aspects of Greece under Alexander the Great - waging war everywhere and wanting to push miscegenation destruction of traditional culture.
>>25612188How long have you been studying latin, or how long has it taken you to reach Roma Aeterna?
>>25612644>tfw no dialis cap to hide my advanced norwood any day of the year
>>25612646λάχοιμί τι τερπνόν
>>25613647>λευκὸς ὁ χιτών, ἡ χλαῖνα πορφυρᾶ, τὸ δὲ σῶμα διὰ τῆς ἐσθῆτος ὑπεφαίνετο.>βαθὺς ὀμφαλός, γαστὴρ τεταμένη, λαπάρα στενή · τὸ στενὸν εἰς ἰξὺν καταβαῖνον ηὐρύνετο. μαζοὶ τῶν στέρνων ἠρέμα προκύπτοντες · ἡ συνάγουσα ζώνη τὸν χιτῶνα καὶ τοὺς μαζοὺς ἔκλειε, καὶ ἐγίνετο τοῦ σώματος κάτοπτρον ὁ χιτών
>[44] 1 Erant in ea legione fortissimi viri, centuriones, qui primis ordinibus appropinquarent, Titus Pullo et Lucius Vorenus. 2 Hi perpetuas inter se controversias habebant, quinam anteferretur, omnibusque annis de locis summis simultatibus contendebant. 3 Ex his Pullo, cum acerrime ad munitiones pugnaretur, "Quid dubitas," inquit, " Vorene? aut quem locum tuae probandae virtutis exspectas? 4 hic dies de nostris controversiis iudicabit." Haec cum dixisset, procedit extra munitiones quaque pars hostium confertissima est visa irrumpit. 5 Ne Vorenus quidem tum sese vallo continet, sed omnium veritus existimationem subsequitur. 6 Mediocri spatio relicto Pullo pilum in hostes immittit atque unum ex multitudine procurrentem traicit; quo percusso et exanimato hunc scutis protegunt, in hostem tela universi coniciunt neque dant regrediendi facultatem. 7 Transfigitur scutum Pulloni et verutum in balteo defigitur. 8 Avertit hic casus vaginam et gladium educere conanti dextram moratur manum, impeditumque hostes circumsistunt. 9 Succurrit inimicus illi Vorenus et laboranti subvenit. 10 Ad hunc se confestim a Pullone omnis multitudo convertit: 11 illum veruto arbitrantur occisum. Gladio comminus rem gerit Vorenus atque uno interfecto reliquos paulum propellit; 12 dum cupidius instat, in locum deiectus inferiorem concidit. Huic rursus circumvento fert subsidium Pullo, 13 atque ambo incolumes compluribus interfectis summa cum laude sese intra munitiones recipiunt. 14 Sic fortuna in contentione et certamine utrumque versavit, ut alter alteri inimicus auxilio salutique esset, neque diiudicari posset, uter utri virtute anteferendus videretur.Kino
Saluete, omnes! Valetene?Faciles peliculas in Tutubo expectare volo sed bonos Tutubatores nescio.Qui boni Tubatores mihi expectando?
>>25613818I've only been studying for a week but I like this guy here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdGXknMxfVI
Morcus got a fancy new interface, better than Paul Allen's meamet sententia
why are stuff like plays, historiography and philosophy considered literature?
>>25614445baffling question
>>25614445They're not. Only novels are literature properly speaking. Those other genres are glorified self-help slop for the masses.
>>25614579arent there like 4-5 novels in greek and just the satyricon and the golden ass in latin?also shouldn't poetry be included?i just find it weird that anything else is included
>>25614579>>25614594>Merriam-Webster>literature>noun>a: writings in prose or verse>b: the body of writings on a particular subject (scientific literature)>c: the body of written works produced in a particular language, country, or age (French literature) (Renaissance literature)>d: printed matter (such as leaflets or circulars) (campaign literature)
>>25613818https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwiFmkVXOhA
>>25614821It honestly never occurred to me how much high quality japanese study I coukd get done by leveraging my Latin.
>>25614594Satyricon (fragments)Metamorphosis of Apuleius Daphnis and ChloeAethiopicaLucian’s A True story (plus whatever else he wrote. That would be like four or five I think?)That’s about it?
>>25613111...you don't actually believe that bongistani wewuzzery...right?
>>25614921I read it in an old book written in latin so it must be true
There's a church not far from me that has latin mass every single day. Should I go? Is there an outline of how it goes so I can study beforehand and be prepared?
>>25615351These websites are pretty helpful. https://propria.org/today/ https://www.divinumofficium.com/The mass is composed of the ordinary, the parts that don't change from day-to-day, and the propers, which do. At a Low Mass (which may also be called a Read Mass and will generally be said in the week) you should be able to follow along with most of what is said if you sit close to the front. At a Solemn Mass(which may also be called a High or Sung Mass and will generally be said on Sunday) the choir tends to sing the Ordinary over the priest and servers. You probably won't be able to hear any propers except for the Collect and the readings. Even if you're not religious hearing Latin as a spoken language can be very helpful, especially if the priest is an accomplished Latinist and has a deep understanding of what he's saying. It definitely improved my Latin.
>>25614874there's also The Ephesian Tale, Callirhoe and Leucippe and Clitophon
>>25615351If you're not familiar with the Catholic mass at all, don't worry. Just be respectful and follow the other people's example in regards to sitting, standing, kneeling. Anyone is allowed to fully participate, Catholic or not, with the exception that you're not permitted to receive communion. During the communion, the ideal is to stay in your pew if you're not actually receiving communion ("communicating"), but do what makes most sense to avoid people tripping over you.If you're already Catholic, the traditional mass is the same in outline as the common vernacular mass. The biggest practical difference (from the perspective of avoiding embarrassment) is the way communion received is different. You should always receive communion kneeling, on the tongue, and you just need to open your mouth. You don't need to respond "Amen" there.The Divinum Officium link in the post above mine is overkill if you don't know what you're looking for. On that site, this is the one page you'd want to look at. It has the text for the ordinary (fixed) parts and the proper texts (the handful of prayers and the bible readings that vary from day to day) inserted for you.https://divinumofficium.com/cgi-bin/missa/missa.plBut this (link below) is the booklet that is most useful. Mass during the week is almost certainly going to be a quiet mass where you'll hear very little of the texts spoken in a loud voice (more or less depending on the mic'ing). Therefore, if you want to follow along with the texts in real-time, it will be very helpful to follow the cuesindicated in this red booklet. You don't need to go overboard studying the all the texts (for example, the prayers of the offertory or canon) because the priest will be saying them quietly, so "following along" for you would consist of reading the texts quietly in between the visible/audible cues.https://archive.org/details/latin-english-booklet-missal-red-book-for-praying-the-traditional-mass-coalitionhttps://praybenedictus.com/product/latin-english-booklet-missal/https://fraternitypublications.com/product/latin-english-booklet-missal/So, religious purposes aside, is it worth going attending a Latin mass as a language-learning activity, even if it's likely most of the Latin texts will be inaudible? I still think it is. You're not going to be getting much audible Latin immersion, but you get direct, hands-on experience about the context for those Latin texts, which makes them more meaningful than just using your imagination, or learning about it over the internet.
>>25615649>>25615461thanks guys, I'm catholic and commulgated (is that how you say it in english?), I just haven't been to mass in a while but I know my way around. I'll just watch initially and then participate as I see fit.I can generally remember most parts in my own language, it will be fun hearing them in Latin.
>>25615696>commulgatedI think you’re thinking of confirmed.>I just haven't been to mass in a whileDon’t take communion then unless you go to the sacrament of reconciliation first. People oversimplify it when they say “only Catholics can take communion.” It’s misleading. Only Catholics who are actively practicing and haven’t committed any mortal sins (people always commit some venial sins every day, mortal sins are specific and named) that have gone unconfessed are supposed to take communion (skipping Mass on Sundays is a mortal sin). But also if it’s been a super long time since you’ve gone to confession I can all but promise the priest will be overjoyed to hear you’ve come back.
>>25615696If you haven't been to mass in a while, the same advice applies about communion. You need to go to confession first.In English, "communicate" for receiving communion is a funny word because "communicate" is a very synonym for talking (I guess with the idea that there's some kind of difficulty to overcome, like where there's a language barrier, or where you're engaging in formal correspondence). Using "communicate" for holy communion is proper, taken directly from Latin, but a lot of English speakers would get confused by it, or, if they understood what you mean, at least think it sounds funny in the back of their mind. People usually use phrases like "receive communion" instead. On the other hand, the participle form "communicant" (for a person receiving communion) sounds fine because that's not otherwise a common English word.
>>25615723Thanks, yeah, I know how it goes, I'm not going to take communion. "I just haven't been to mass in a while" was just meant to say that I know how things go, I just may have forgotten some details.
>>25615696Ah, comulgar.In English we would say you are a "practicing Catholic". "Communicating" would probably be a 1:1 of what you mean here, but in English that refers to reception at an individual mass, not one's general disposition. Check it out if you would like and don't worry too much about preparing, just be open. Also if you do want to print off texts to take with you it may be worth asking the community/parish ahead of time which Mass will be said. The old calendar (unlike the new) does not have a fixed cycle of daily readings. On ferial days the priest has the option of repeating the previous Sunday's or celebrating a votive mass instead. For example the community I am a part of has votive masses of the Dead, the Sacred Heart, and Our Lady on Mondays, Fridays, and Saturdays, respectively (that have no higher ranking feast associated with them).
>>25615731Cool lol. You’d be surprised how many people don’t know that and get really angry when you tell them.
>>25615742It's not like it's enforced to any extent though. When I was still a Catholic I'd always see people in my small parish going to church maybe one every few months and taking the communion. The priests that I have seen throughout the years knew it too, obviously, but I've never heard them mentioning it
>>25614594You're right. There's not much from antiquity worth speaking of. That's why "Ad Alpes: A Tale of Roman Life" by H.C. Nutting, which some have described as "faintly resembling a modern novel," is the crown jewel of all Latin literature.
>>25615770>It's not like it's enforced to any extent though.Yes, that’s why it’s important to care and let others know in a way that won’t hurt their feelings or make them do it anyways, otherwise you’re letting people carelessly sin, or knowingly sin, and causing detriment to your own soul by indifference. It’s like warning someone that they’re going out climbing with ropes that won’t support their weight.
>>25615770Clearly the fault rests on either one of two people. It either rests on God for not scheduling his Sunday mass around their NFL football games or it falls on the men for being stupid enough to be Catholics. No third option. It’s one of those.
Praeceps ad infernos >I Cor 11, 27Itaque quicumque manducaverit panem hunc, vel biberit calicem Domini indigne, reus erit corporis et sanguinis Domini.>ὥστε ὃς ἂν ἐσθίῃ τὸν ἄρτον ἢ πίνῃ τὸ ποτήριον τοῦ κυρίου ἀναξίως, ἔνοχος ἔσται τοῦ σώματος καὶ τοῦ αἵματος τοῦ κυρίου.
>>25615941*Head explodes*
>1 Cor 11:28>probet autem se ipsum homo et sic de pane illo edat et de calice bibat
29 Qui enim manducat et bibit indigne, judicium sibi manducat et bibit, non dijudicans corpus Domini.30 Ideo inter vos multi infirmi et imbecilles, et dormiunt multi.
>>25615964Isn't this a bit homophobic? (The joke that never gets old.)
>>25613784>kinothe kinetographic version(starts at 0:58)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvaXHH1C9QA
>>25616062The difference between the historical men is they were equally ranked centurions constantly competing to show their valor, whereas HBO’s Rome casts them as superior and subordinate in basically every way.
>Filius natus-est Abrahamo, qui vocavit eum Isaacum>Deus, tentans fidem Abrahami, dixit ei:>"Abrahame, tolle filium tuum unicum, quem amas, et immole eum mihi">Adrahamus non dubitavit parere Deo>Imposuit ligna Isaaco; ipse vero portabat ignem et gladium>Isaacus dixit patri: "Mi pater, ecce ligna et ignis; sed ubinam est hostia immolanda?">"Deus sibi providebit hostiam, fili mi">Ahrahamus exstruxit aram, disposuit ligna, allignavit Isaacum super struem lignorum, deinde arripuit gladium>Tum angelus clamavit de caelo:>"Abrahame, contine manum tuam, ne noceas puero">Abrahamus dixit: "lol wut, I already made it this far, Imma kill dis lil' nigga now"what a world we'd be living in...
Made it to chapter 9 of Logos. Feeling pretty proud of myself, but does this shit ever get more interesting or have anything remotely resembling a plot? At least Athenaze seems to have some sovl.
>>25616075Abraham only got that far because he was obeying God’s commands, it doesn’t make sense for him to suddenly disobey him just to kill his beloved son. The other part is mentioned in Hebrews 11:17-19; that Abraham believed God would not make a contradiction and so since Isaac was prophesied to have many descendants, God would raise Isaac from the dead if Abraham actually had sacrificed him (almost like Jesus). >lilFurthermore, Isaac was at least a teenager and potentially as old as his upper 30s, he could have resisted Abraham if he wanted to.>>25616125It seems kind of all over the place to me.
>>25616073I don't understand the thinking behind these productions. DBG as Caesar wrote it has enough drama to make an exciting movie or series out of if adapted straightforwardly. Why do they choose to film a historical drama as close-up shaky-cam, as if it were The Blair Witch Project? And HBO's "Rome" is supposed to be the cream of the crop.
>>25616075jahweh be like>omnipotens sum>me miserum! estne currus ferreus illic? reeee
>>25613784It seems like Caesar avoids direct speech entirely in DBG maybe until book 5, with the "vincite, si vultis..." of Sabinus when they're debating whether or not to leave their winter encampments. Maybe I'm forgetting something earlier. Interesting though that it seems like a small stylistic shift, or maybe it's a choice influenced by the hand of different ghostwriters.
>>25616075> what a world we'd be living in...Jews would have been some ancient pagan cult long since dead that /lit/ posters are obsessed with, Ala the Eleusynian mysteries and similar that often get threads.
>>25616178If any part of books 1-7 were supplemented by officers and witnesses it would have been the deeds of officers when Caesar was not present.
>>25616178>direct speechExcept from that German tribal leader who threatened to destroy all the Romans in Gaul but was routed when he attempted to cross a river and his men were slaughtered. It’s pretty much a direct quotation or so it claims from the chieftain.
I just found this Aeneid IV tiered reader, looks pretty cool. Sharing if anybody's interested, maybe it could be added to the mega in OP.(not even trolling, I just realized the author is that hapa girl on youtube. Whatever, not shilling but giving it away for free, which she herself does on her newsletter.)>https://gofile.io/d/5aF5AJ7q
>>25616286It seems like an excellent book. And she’s a sperg queen.
>>25616220You’re not talking about Ariovistus are you? I remember him being indirect speech. Do you mean the chieftain in book 5 whose people were being pressed out of Germany?
>>25616349I checked again and the Ariovistus chapter has a few lines in quotation
>>25616349Wait nvm. You got the right one. It’s the other one
>>25616358Ah, yes. I forgot about the eagle bearer.>Atque nostris militibus cunctantibus, maxime propter altitudinem maris, qui X legionis aquilam gerebat, obtestatus deos, ut ea res legioni feliciter eveniret, "desilite," inquit, "milites, nisi vultis aquilam hostibus prodere; ego certe meum rei publicae atque imperatori officium praestitero." Hoc cum voce magna dixisset, se ex navi proiecit atque in hostes aquilam ferre coepit.But that's still book 4 out of 8.
>>25616220I also recall in book 7 one of the Gallic chiefs in Alesia counsels that they engage in cannibalism, and that was stated to be a quote, but I don’t recall that being in direct voice. I believe you though, Caesar just wars with Germans along the Rhine like 3-4 times lol. I did remember the aquilifer though.
>>25616125>does this shit ever get more interestingno. also the quality of the greek is worse than in any other textbook I've seen. I guess they first wrote it in Spanish and then translated it. if I was you I'd drop it immidiately and pick up Athenaze or Reading Greek.
>>25612986quamcumque detur aleam legendarum mihi sequar
>>25617874ffs I kept trying to understand why the fuck the word dementia kept appearing out of context in these letters both in thelatinlibrary and wikisource so I had to look for alternative sources and of course it wasn't dementia but clementia lmao>Serenissimi principatus vestri DEMENTIA ad praecellentissimum filium nostrum, Hildebertum regem, directa pervenit epistula
>>25617930OCR issue?
>>25617997likely yes 'd' and 'cl' look very similar, but it's fun how it can create hilarious misunderstandings with these opposite meanings
>>25617874shouldn't the subject of detur be in the nominative?
>>25618022just using some cheeky case attraction
>>25618027what does this mean
>>25618029it's more common in Greek mind you, but still it appears in Latin sometimes, see inverse attraction https://elon.io/grammar/latin/cases/case-attraction-and-case-agreement
>>25618033>inverse attraction>a noun that belongs syntactically to the main clause appears in the case required inside the relative clause.In that case, shouldn't it be "quaecumque detur alea"? (both in the nominative)
>>25618079I think you might be right I switched the definitions around, inverse is the other case, this should be "normal" case attraction
>>25618129yeah the normal inverse inverse case attraction
Is it really true that a lot of newer Teubner’s are POD?I’m not dogmatically against POD if it’s done well but it better be cheap lmao.
Do grecolatinfags really believe they sound smart if they scramble their words?
>>25618716Some of us.>>25618027>I purposely make my 4chan post use unusual syntax to make it annoying to readNigga just write nigga
grecolatingfags be like>simple with increase this IQ trick your
>>25618720latine si hebetissime audes scribito
>is that a non-textbook stylistic choice in a sentence with 6 words???>AAAHGHGHG IM GOING INSANE EGO ROGO QUOD UNUS HOMO AD ME FERAT UNUM AUXILIUM
>>25618744>Did I make a mistake? No, it's the textbooks that are wrong.>picrel it's me
>>25618752surely you meant "the picture I attached to my posts depicts me", did I get that right? I can't find "picrel" in my english textbook
>>25618759https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/picrel
>>25618764https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0001:part=2:section=4
>>25618743I write in latin frequently in this general. I’m posting on my bathroom breaks right now.>>25618744>6 wordsThat’s why it’s obnoxious. It’s not embedded in any worthwhile context to justify the superfluous flourish. If it was a flourish in amongst a larger more normal paragraph it wouldn’t be gay, but as it stands it’s just a bizarre construction you wrote so you could lecture on what you treat as a piece of grammatical trivia when you inevitably confused one of the anons that didn’t know about case attraction. It’s the type of stupid shit that treats the language like a way to jerk yourself off on the page rather than a mode of communication.
>>25618773oh no I accidentally caused someone to become aware of case attraction this is a new Cannae, I'm gonna conscisc mihi mortem now
>>25617874>>25618743Quaecumque alea legendarum mihi detur, eam sequar.
>>25618778>become aware of case attraction Maybe not every forum post deserves 6 pages of English grammatical commentary and you should just write plainly, unless you’re like already proven to be able to write fluently plainly and have written a substantial amount.
>>25618782>'ego' nowhere to be seenunintelligible shit fucking try hard vermin poena cullei for your kind
>>25618771>occasionallymostly with the genitive, extremely rare (aka textual corruption) with nom. and acc., very similar to greek>"inverse" urbem quamservius already explained it depends on a previous "vultis" if I remember correctly
>>25618785Are you really this retarded or merely pretending
>>25618791there's always a crab in the bucket with tougher pincers than yours git gut crabby
>>25618796If you write in a more dense and obscure way than canonical authors, outside of your personal prose composition notebook, in a language you have not mastered plain prose, it’s just a waste of letters.
>>25618798all of this for a fucking 6 words postsunbelievable how strong crabs in a bucket mentality is with some permatironcelli lmao
Nigri carissimi, rogo ut nugae fori isti ne causa pugnandi sint.
Best book on learning Ancient Greek?
>>25618782you already throw your alea when you decided to roll, it's the sors or some other synonym you're waiting to be given to you
>>25618802frogposters' posts
>>25618801aliam non habet causam forum istud quam pugnandi
>>25618773>I could (I did in fact)>but I won't!
>>25618802>>25618806>>25618811reading greek
>>25618824which one?https://www.amazon.com/s?k=reading+greek&crid=3HGZ5YJ5CZ3PU&sprefix=reading+greek%2Caps%2C294
>>25618799It’s your fault
>>25618825the mega in OP has Greek textbooks in them, try some, see what you find more enjoyable that's what matters, I liked Italian Athenaze
>>25618824Graecum non legitur.
Is there a way to know, as a beginner, if someone is legit or of he's talking out of his ass? Does something like a *complete* Latin grammar exist?
>>25618838Gildersleeve’s is pretty meaty but ultimately you’ve gotta get used to your own knowledge and read a few resources to have it for reference when you need it.
>>25618842>GildersleeveThanks.Are LLMs accurate enough when it comes to correcting Latin? (I ask because they are good enough for living langs imo.)
>>25618856Can at least be helpful. Their own productive Latin is idiomatically bizarre but they can at least check your own grammar okay.
>>25618866Thanks again.I gave the few Latin sentences people wrote ITT to chatgpt and gemma and according the them, all sentences are wrong kek.
>>25618856frankly if I were to speak from my experience I'm afraid it might already be outdated for new models, this stuff is progressing very fastas far as translating from Latin/Greek to English I used it more often and usually at least for what I write it gets it 99% of the time even if it's a more elaborate or obscure reference that a traditional non LLM translator might mess up; for ancient texts considering it also has RAG nowdays it can probably straight up pull up a translation from a human source
>>25618872I'm reading LLPSI and I can put any 3 random words from any chapter and Gemini (free version) goes "Oh, this is a quote from that famous book, Lingua Latina..."
where to start with ancient greek? thought this is the best place to ask? plus points if you can pirate literature
>>25612644I think it'd be kewl if whoever starts the next thread links some docs to keyboard layouts across Windows, MacOS and Linux. I happen to use Pāḷi so I'll go first and hopefully it'll help the other anons get their setups better too so we can all start helping eachother typeset and archive books that utilize letters from our respective classical languages, also hoping I could get some of this added to the rentry since I think it'd help my fellow Pāḷi anons out!Intro to Pāḷi literature:https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.9149/mode/2upPrinciples of Burmese Theravāda Buddhism(currently attempting to typeset this):https://files.catbox.moe/0spo8d.pdfKeyboard layouts and guides for Pāḷi in Roman script:For Windows:https://fsnow.com/pali/keyboard/For MacOS:https://tipitaka.org/keyboardFor Linux:It's a lot less clear for Linux in all honesty, but I personally just use GNOME's compose key feature since it allows you to have a default keyboard layout and then combine it for example compose key(usually shift or a power key) + [ your letter ] + [ combined with either !, - or any variation that adds a diatric = the result ā,Ā,ṁ, etc or for characters where you'd like to have the dot below you'd need to use an exclamation mark in the order [ compose key ] + [ exclamation mark ] + [ then your letter ] = your result being ṃ, Ṇ etc.Here are the unicode hex codes and such here for Pāḷi: https://tipitaka.net/forge/unicode.htmFor typesetting books I'd recommend using SILE since it's extensible, much smaller than something like LaTeX or rmarkdown but doesn't lack unicode support like groff: https://sile-typesetter.org/Hopefully this helps with the anons who use Pāḷi sorry I can't help much with Latin or Classical Chinese, but the advice on the compose key, typesetter should help a lot with all classical languages! :>
should I read the Vulgate if I'm about a third of the way through Roma Aeterna? I'd like some good reading practice alongside it. not religious so it's purely out of a desire to practice Latin and read the Bible (something I've wanted to do for a while)the Gryson edition is kind of expensive though
>>25618870It does depend heavily on how you phrase it. If you are vague it will try to spot idiom in which case a latinist could find errors in any golden age author if you told them a modern wrote it. You really need to ask it to check basic grammar, or even just inflections/agreement.
>>25618887Yes it’s easy peasy and also iconic. Gospels great to get good at reading. You’re over
>>25618890I was considering either buying some Classical Latin books I'm personally interested in (Ovid, Virgil, Pliny, Livy, etc.), but perhaps I should wait until I have finished all of LLPSI so that the experience reading them would be better, while the Vulgate is simpler and is long enough to keep me busy for a while. I would also achieve both of my goals at the same time (read the Bible and improve my Latin)which edition should I buy? I'm considering the Gryson one right now
>>25618880>https://rentry dot co/n8nrkothis has some great charts to guide you, and OP has some megas with all the basic and not so basic books you could want. you can find all shadow libraries here: >https://open-slum.org/
>>25618899>GrysonYeah I really liked the GBS’s New Testament, so it should be a sick bible dude. But for the full thing I cheaped out and got a clementine reprint.For what it’s worth, after some adjustments mainly just in getting used to the gospels, I was able to read the whole New Testament before starting Roma Aeterna. Obviously there’s a lot of difference in idiom, but it’s not linguistically opaque, so I think you’ll find it strange but not hard. Plus bible quotes are basically some of the only Latin you’ll ever see IRL aside from monuments lmao. The NT has far less rare vocab than the OT and in my edition was like 800 short pages of fairly easy reading, with the gospels making up half that. I’d recommend revelations after acts, and to do paul’s epistles last, also to do the gospel of luke after the others since Paul and the Acts+Luke historian are both educated and write in a more complex style, and Luke’s difference from the other gospels will make Acts easy since it’s the same author.John->Mark->Matthew->Luke-Acts->Apocalypse->non-paul epistles->Pauline epistles.
>>25618909this might be a stupid question, but the Gryson Bible is the Catholic Bible, right? and the Catholic veriant contains the most books?
>>25618888>a latinist could find errors in any golden age author if you told them a modern wrote itdefine latinist
>>25618921Yes. The Stuttgart vulgate is the Gryson. Technically what it is is a scholarly effort to treat the medieval vulgate manuscript tradition like they would any other Roman text, producing a critical edition that they believe best matches what St. Jerome originally actually wrote (roughly speaking and oversimplifying). I don’t know if it’s specifically, like, a listed edition by the Church since it’s a scholarly work, but I don’t see why that would be a problem since it’s of the medieval Vulgate tradition and the council of Trent declared that legitimate. It has the full Deuterocanon, which the schismatics call “apocrypha” ever since Luther labeled them so (and also cast doubt on some epistles and moved them to the back of the Luther bible too). I read the entry for that specific edition and saw it also had both versions of St. Jerome’s psalter, which is really cool.AFAIK there’d technically be no problem with even a Catholic using Vetus Latina texts, which are partial translations of the bible written before St. Jerome.The Clementine Vulgate is the attempt to standardize the manuscripts in 1592, and was the vulgate used by basically all Catholics until the 70s. Now we have the Nova Vulgata, which is still a Vulgate, it just differs in that it allows the Latin in places to be altered to match the Hebrew or Greek. Picrel is NV. The full edition is extremely expensive though like all post-V2 latin resources for some reason.
is anybody reading the greek books from the Bible in their original greek? I remember seeing some analyses where they showed how "Logos" had been very wrongly translated into latin, and all the theological consequences that entailed.
>>25619569>I remember seeing>wrongly translated>theological consequencesshould have used the original king james bible insteaddumb theologicians, i watched a video saying none of them new any greek, not even the greeks from the eastern roman empire, so it must be true
>>25618888Cope. I tried several fragments from classical authors and it didn't "find" any mistake.
>>25619796>>I remember seeing>>wrongly translated>>theological consequencesthis sounds like the setup to a Borges story
grecolantinfags be like>I'm as fluent in dhemhosthenhian-kikeronian as if it were my first lang>no I can't be bothered to write in dhemhosthenhian-kikeronian during the shitbreaks my owner allows me to take>can be bothered to write in englishExplain the (I assume only apparent) contradiction.
>>25619569verbum is indeed a pretty poor 1to1 translation of λόγος considering how broad the latter is in Greek but to be fair there was a will to keep things close to the original in the translation
>>25618882mmh I'm not sure how to neatly fit this in the scheme of the FAQ so far, the idea of the latter is among others to avoid cluttering the OP; I can add your links to the Pali section for sure, not sure a specific global layout section is worth it i.e. for ancient near east languages they are in their respective links section
>>25619915btw regarding Linux, am I understanding correctly that Pali is written, perhaps among others, with a Latin alphabet with diacritics then?when I write Greek words, I switch the layout entirely so I have α<->a, β<->b, etc... as well as specific keys to add diacritics, and this is achieved through setxkbmap which has the following options https://gist.github.com/jatcwang/ae3b7019f219b8cdc6798329108c9aee I get what I want for ancient Greek with the greek + polytonic variant, perhaps Pali diacritics are shared with something in there? using a compose key is certainly an option but maybe a bit clunky
>>25619800You knew they were classical.
>>25619867I write more in Latin than a lot of people I just don’t want to do it over this retarded argument.
>>25619915I'm aware it's still quite small especially just for one classical language like Pāḷi, I'm just hoping that hopefully the thread will start having more open discussions in regards to the more technical side of actually working with languages whether that be Pāḷi or any other language. In regards to the global layout section I totally understand, I'd only recommend it if other anons begin coming out with their own setups so it can hopefully be compiled in a more coherent, unified manner. Appreciate you adding my links as well!>>25619925No not necessarily, for comparison Pāḷi is different in the sense it doesn't have a strict script. Due to this there's multiple scripts, the order goes Sri Lankan-->Burmese-->Thai-->Laos-->Cambodia with Latin script coming last with the first Pāḷi societies in Europe. If I could I'd tried to use the Burmese script since it's often considered in a sense much like the Vatican in SEA, here's a video if you're interested, and is where the Sixth Buddhist Council took place and often holds/preserves the most important texts on Theravāda Buddhism:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzs_uLmHaHYI'm just using the Latin script for now as it has the most resources for me to learn with and due to me being a relative newbie as well. I just use the compose key since the letters with diatrics are visually just simply English letters just with diatrics added on top to produce different sounds. For other languages and even Pāḷi scripts, I'd recommend getting a specialized keyboard in all honesty especially if you intend in typesetting books and don't want to have to memorize the specific english keys that map to your language since they operate quite differently to Latin-derived languages. (Sorry if I over-explained a little, there's significant differences that I myself had to go through on forums, but hopefully I've made it explicit as possible with my explanation.)
>>25619936>>25619940In awe of grecolatinfags' ability to cope.
>>25620015Thanks for the (you)s
The grecolatinfag is immunized against all dangers: One may call him a pseud, pedantic, pompous, charlatan, it all runs off him like water off a raincoat. But ask him to write in Greek or Latin and you will be astonished at how he recoils, how injured he is, how he suddenly shrinks back: "I’ve been found out".
>>25620016You're welcome!
>>25620020>>25620023Lmao okay based. You win the internet today fine sir :D
Greek. What’s the big deal? I mean, the vocab is alien, but the grammar seems like easy latin (verbs don’t matter).
>>25618890I think you're overly dismissive of the Vulgate's difficulty. Sure, after being dumped into Livy in Roma Aeterna, the Vulgate could feel like a breath of fresh air in certain respects, but you can't generalize and say that the whole thing is "easy peasy," and certainly not easy peasy squeezy. For example, I don't think the parts where it talks about the construction of the tabernacle are all that easy to follow. For one more or less random example (and this is not even one of the hardest examples I could have picked), from Exodus 26:>Tabernaculum vero ita facies: decem cortinas de bysso retorta, et hyacintho, ac purpura, coccoque bis tincto, variatas opere plumario facies.>Longitudo cortinae unius habebit viginti octo cubitos: latitudo, quatuor cubitorum erit. Unius mensurae fient universa tentoria.>Quinque cortinae sibi jungentur mutuo, et aliae quinque nexu simili cohaerebunt.>Ansulas hyacinthinas in lateribus ac summitatibus facies cortinarum, ut possint invicem copulari.>Quinquagenas ansulas cortina habebit in utraque parte, ita insertas ut ansa contra ansam veniat, et altera alteri possit aptari.>Facies et quinquaginta circulos aureos quibus cortinarum vela jungenda sunt, ut unum tabernaculum fiat.>Facies et saga cilicina undecim, ad operiendum tectum tabernaculi.>Longitudo sagi unius habebit triginta cubitos, et latitudo, quatuor: aequa erit mensura sagorum omnium.>E quibus quinque junges seorsum, et sex sibi mutuo copulabis, ita ut sextum sagum in fronte tecti duplices.There are parts of the Bible that are difficult to understand in any language regardless of the simplicity of style. The bible is full of head-scratchers. In the NT, the Gospels and Acts are relatively simple to follow, but some of the epistles are difficult to understand. (Otherwise, Protestantism wouldn't exist, right?) It's good reading material, and overall is more interesting in terms of content than a lot of the "classics," but some parts are a slog and even the easier parts take some work to get adjusted to.
would you look at the timeEasyLook at that big mountain!My cousin, although fat, runs pretty fast.Why are there ducks swimming in my own pond?MediumIf he had asked nicely I wouldn't have yelled at him!Although destitute of his inheritance, he managed to become rich.Go find the fish market's overseer and report to him that according to a recent report the city's fishing fleet has been wrecked by a sudden violent storm.HardWrite a short paragraph/story in second person about a dog trying to find his way home.
>>25618899That is the version I have. One thing to note with that Vulgate is that it doesn't have punctuation. It has some capitalization, but for things like proper names, not for marking the beginning of sentences. There are line breaks that sometimes but don't always coincide with the ends of sentences. Dialogue is not marked with quotation marks. I think you'd make your life easier by getting an edition that has some punctuation added. You can judge for yourself how much you think that matters. (pic related)This one doesn't have a quotation marks, but it at least uses colons to help you see where a quotation might be starting. I also think given the amount of unknown words you're going to run across, having a translation built in is a nice feature.https://www.baronius.com/douay-rheims-clementina-vulgata.htmlI also think if you have a particular author you're interested in, you don't need to wait until you finish all of LLPSI to even look at them. If you're interested in Virgil, start looking at Virgil now. Unless you need to read a specific work for some extraneous purpose, it's better to read what interests you and what you derive satisfaction from personally rather than reading what Hans Orberg or anyone else says you have to read. It's good to read different authors and genres anyway.
>modern greeks have nothing to do with ancient greeks, WE WUZ COPELITES AND SHIIIEET>meanwhile modern greekspicrel proves the historicity of Hercules, too.APOLOGIZE
>>25620052Facilia:Aspice illum montem magnum.Consobrinus meus, ut obesus sit, aliquanto celerius currit.Quare natant anates in meo proprio stango?Mediocria:Si suaviter rogasset, eum non vituperaret.Cum hereditatem desiderasset, divitias adeptus est.I ut eum, qui macello praefectus est, invenias, certioremque facias recentem per nuntium relatum totam urbis piscatoriam classem magna procella destructam esse.Difficile:E somno suscitaris. Canentes aves auscultas et surgis. Aliquot paucos solis radios qui per tegmen penetrant vides inter umbras arborum. Solum odoras. Nulla vestigia sive amicorum sive edibilium invenis. Ventrem repente sentis. Quantum temporis postquam novissime comedisti? Nescis. Aliquot dies? Multos? Latras tristis. Ubi es? Nescis. Nescis quam in partem ire debeas. Hoc solum meministi: puerum carum domi te exspectantem esse, quem mordere debes.
>>25620050WOW A 2000 WORD COLLECTION OF 73 DIFFERENT BOOKS OF DIFFERENT GENRES ISNT IDENTICALLY THE SAME DIFFICULTY WOWEE GADZOOKS AWOOGA
>>25620343Thank you for conceding the point so graciously.
>>25620350We don’t disagree you’re just being pedantic because you’re using an obviously overbroad and hyperbolic statement as an excuse to “argue” with someone who doesn’t disagree with you.
>>25620054huh?
>>25620050For the record, I found the selection you posted not particularly difficult, and it’s fitting that you chose something almost stereotypically bible-y. Yeah digging the nuance out of Paul is a lot, which I pretty much say in my more-detailed post here >>25618909. I understand that is part of the difficulty on an anon board so I understand why you took umbrage with the specific post you responded to.
>>25620354>those quotation marks and apostrophesllm
>>25620460This is impressive b8 so I don’t know if I ought to dignify it by calling you a niggerfaggot or just let it lie.
>>25620467ask chapgpt to write it in latin
>>25620223>ut obesus sitcan I ask if ut + subj. can be used to introduce a concessive clause or are you sperglords going to sperg out like yesterday?
>>25620512Go ahead. It was me. But sounds like a very normal question.
>>25620054I own a Baronius press one too, and I found it kind of helpful at first but found that the Latin is syntactically transparent enough that the English was more distracting than helpful fairly quickly. It’s an absolutely beautiful edition though and worth having especially for the denser stuff like the law.
>>25620512I think it can be used basically like "cum" in this sense, I think this is the relevant part of the L&S entry.https://morcus.net/dicts/id/n49975#n49975.95This Morcus site is excellent by the way. Thanks to Anonymous for mentioning it.
>>25620052>xiquitta huei tepetlthat one took me an hour so i'm not going to even bother with the rest.
>>25620944If you used some case attraction you could’ve written it with the same number of words, harder to read, and it would’ve taken you 2 hours.
>>25620052φέρ' ἴδω μέγα τοὖρος!ὡνεψιός μου παχύς περ ὤν μάλα ποδαρκής ἐστιντίνος μὴν ἕνεκα νήχονται νῆτται ἐν τῷ ἐμῷ τέλματι;εἴ μ' εὐφρόνως ἤρετο, οὐκ ἄν κατεβόησ' αὐτοῦ!ἐστερημένος περ τῆς κληρονομίας ἐγένετ' οὐδὲν ἦττον πλοῦσιοςφέρε δὴ ἴθι καὶ εὑρὲ τὸν ἰχθυαγοράνομον ὅπως ἀγγέλλῃς οἱ νεωστὶ βάξιν ἀφικέσθαι ὡς ὅλως νεναυαγηκέναι τὸ ἁλιευτικὸν ναυτικὸν μεγάλῃ προσπεσούσῃ θυέλλῃἌργε ποδήνεμε δῖε, τίη μοι χρέος τὸ σὸν πολυδάκρυτον κλέος αὖθις μιμνήσκειν; γηρύω μᾶλλον ὅτε ποτ' ἐσφάλης τῆς εἰς Ἰθάκην φερούσης ὁδοῦ μακρὰν διώξας λαγὼν κατὰ τὰς Ἰθακησίας ἄκρας ἕως ἦλθεν κνέφας· ἦν μὰ Δία σκότος ἐκείνης τῆς νυκτὸς ἀσέληνος σφόδρα ὡσεὶ Ταρταρίτης γεγενημένος! ἀλλὰ δὲ τὸν καλὸν κἀγαθὸν κύν' οὐ μὴν τοσούτη λαμβάνει χρεία τοῦ φωτὸς ὅση τὸν ἄνθρωπον ἄμοιρον τῆς κυνείας ὀσφρήσεως· τῇ γὰρ χρώμενον ἠσπάσατό σ' ἐωθινὸς ὁ Ἥλιος καὶ Τηλέμαχος φίλος υἱὸς Ὀδυσσῆος θείοιο
>>25621092Is that Opus 5.5? what effort level are you using?
>>25621113it's Human 1.0 and around an hour with LSJ
>>25620056Modern Greeks are only a little descended of Classical Hellas, as in the actual population on the peninsula itself but have plenty of Ionian Greek ancestry that came over during the Roman period, probably because of demographic collapse in Hellas. They’re still absolutely Greek (an exonym) in any meaningful Roman sense of the word.
>>25621222>demographic collapse in Hellaswhen was that?
>>256218661453
>>25621922Ah, Byzantium!
how many hours a week, on average, do you guys spend studying or practicing your classical language? I just started 2 weeks ago but I'm trying to do 10 hours/week
>>25622236realistically maybe 4-6 hours maintaining/reading/composing Latin/Greek
I imagine you guys also read history books about your chosen classical period. Not to make this a /hist/ thread, but can you share anything you read and particularly enjoyed? Related to your classical period, of course.
>>25622572Caesar: De Bello GallicoGesta Francorum (utter peak)Polydore Vergil: Historia AnglicaI didn’t particularly enjoy Nepos, Eutropius, or the sections I’ve read of Bede, but for Bede I think I just need to get more used to his style. I also intend on reading Geoffrey of Monmouth and Gildas the Wise at some point.
Oh there’s another historian, Paulus Diaconus, and while I found his continuation of Eutropius’s Breviarum up to Romulus Augustulus to be alright, I found his history of the Lombards less enjoyable.
>>25621114You should ignore that attention whore, he's that "special" kid who's always posting his word count and reading speed, who "writes a lot of Latin" too, but won't share his virtuosity with us. He seems butthurt about something lately. You probably made him feel insecure about his proficiency.
>>25622682No I’m the kid posting my reading speed, that guy is a completely different person.
>>25618802Anki, unironically. Graded readers are a time sink.
>>25622745Use anki on graded readers
>>25622795anki + real texts
>>25621866Sorry, I seem to have oversimplified things when talking about like a 1000 year migration history. For the record, “Roman Anatolians” are borderline the same people as ancient Greeks genetically speaking and most Greek ancestry was Anatolian to begin with. To my limited understanding, if anything Greeks are less “eastern” and more “northern” now due to medieval Slav ancestry. And what “Ottoman era ‘Turkish’” even means, I have no clue, since I figure by the ottoman era the Turks are largely anatolian as well.
>>25622682>He seems butthurt about something latelyI fear the case attraction incident broke him on a fundamental level
>>25622745>Graded readers are a time sink.what about stuff like this where you have the original and the graded text in the same page? >>25616286why are graded readers so bad?
>>25622795If graded readers are a time sink, anki is a complete waste of time.>>25622905Because he's retarded.
>>25622855I’m still seething about it
>>25622814Youre the best debater in this whole thread, a true subversive
>>25622814Same as the egyptians, the slavs are retarded ogre cousins, the turks are completely foreign and the most appearance spoiling, they come out with an apes similarity to the old group
>>25622814Theyre all dead now so ignorance is all we have left
>>25623288What did I do lmao
>>25623424Lets settle for the middle
>>25623446where the heck is saki?
>>25622814Eastern? Who said they were "eastern"
>>25622814What does this have to do with literature?
Friendly reminder that if you haven't read Cicero you haven't read Latin prose.
>>25623551what if the only book i end up reading in latin is caesar?
>>25620056>>25621866>>25622814>>25623288>>25623472Have some etiquette guys! Feels bad having the OP's thread be completely derailed. Cooperation between all is preferred.
>>25623555Caesar's writings don't conform to the standards of Ciceronian prose for [arbitrary reasons], so Caesar's writings, while interesting in their own right, fall short of true Latin prose.
>>25622795this is unironically the most efficent way to reach a decent reading fluency
monoglots be like>lemme teach you about language learning
>>25623644>t. Englishman born in 1920
>Nosses iocosae dulce cum sacrum Florae>Festosque lusus et licentiam volgi,>Cur in theatrum, Cato severe, venisti?>An ideo tantum veneras, ut exires?What's the deal with the first part of the last verse? Is it normal to be flipped like that?
>>25623967What do you mean “flipped” i am confused
>>25620600It's a matter of personal preference of course, but you can cut a sheet of paper to fit over the English side if you find it distracting. When you have large amounts of unknown words, a translation is going to be more efficient than looking every single word up in the dictionary.
>>25623967>>25624028I'm also confused what he meant. Maybe he meant the first verse and the placement of "cum." Or maybe he misunderstood the meaning of the last line in a way that he thinks it's flipped. It's a simple purpose clause. "Why did you come (venisti) to the theater, Cato? ... veneras ut exires?"
>>25624028long (or anceps) long shortshort long long
>>25624065The solution is I think the one given here because the meter after "an ideo" seems straightforward.https://www.hypotactic.com/latin/index.html?Use_Id=martial1>Occasionally, one of the first three longa in the line may be resolved into two short syllables, but this is rare.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choliamb#LatinWiktionary has ideō, but I guess it needs to be ideo (with short -o).https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ideo#Latin
I declaimed a bunch of poetry to a woman but she initiated intercourse halfway through Catullus 5 and didn’t let me finish until I came inside of her
>>25619569Many non-scholarly Christians unironically think “word of God” means the literal words of the New Testament rendered in KJV English.
>>25623967>>25624065nvm, it's probably a case of brevis brevians
>>25624550Weird since that word is anapestic, not iambic (or cretic).
>>25624333I'm Dutch and I've read the Bible exclusively in English (KJV)
>>25624550>>25624713Impossible according to French wiki>Il est important de voir que l'abrègement iambique est en outre impossible sur la syllabe finale d'un mot de forme anapestique, comme rĕdĕō, à cause de la première condition d'apparition du phénomène.(no source ofc)It must be ideō.The explanation completely agrees with what I've read in "BOLDRINI. La prosodia e la metrica dei romani" though.>Car pour déterminer comment deux syllabes brèves peuvent s'associer pour former un élément, il faut toujours partir de la première brève du mot et avancer de gauche à droite. Ainsi, dans rĕdĕō, le groupement des brèves est forcément <rĕdĕ>ō, ce qui ne laisse aucune place à la possibilité d'un abrègement iambique du type *rĕ<dĕŏ>. En revanche, dans un mot de quatre syllabes du type sĕquĭmĭnī, l'abrègement iambique de la finale est possible, du moins dans la métrique anapestique non soumise à la loi de Hermann-Lachmann, grâce à un regroupement de brèves du type <sĕquĭ><mĭnĭ>.https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abr%C3%A8gement_iambique
>>25624901It doesn't have to be a case of "brevis brevians" or "iambic shortening." It could just be the/a natural way to pronounce the word. The Wikipedia article on brevis brevians mentions the pronunciation avĕ rather than avē.>According to Quintilian, avĕ with short -e was the usual pronunciation in his day, the long form being used only by pedantic people.So who's to say that ideŏ isn't a normal pronunciation? If the o is not short, what scansion do you propose? I don't see any better solution than >>25624127.
>>25624901>It must be ideōIf this is indeed some form of anaclasis ("flipped")>x- u- >u- x-does someone know if anaclasis is common in iambo-trochaic meters? Any source on this specific passage?
>>25624971>It could just be the/a natural way to pronounce the word.It isn't.
>>25624971>avĕ rather than avēThat's iambic shortening.
ideo only happens twince in Martial,>Nil mihi respondes? Tacitum te dicere credo >'Non reddes': ideo, Caeciliane, rogo. ideōI checked Ovid, Vergil, Catullus and Horace, too, always ideō.>>25624971>So who's to say that ideŏ isn't a normal pronunciation?Latin native poets.
a source! a source! my kingdom for a source!
Can someone provide a fucking source for ideo being pronounced with short o instead of talking out of your asses? Thanks in advance.
>>25625003I see a lot of talk of "iambic shortening" and how certain pronunciations are impossible (from their experience growing up in ancient Rome, I suppose), yet I see a lack of alternative scansions for this verse.
>>25625060The source would be the poem of Martial (who studied Latin in school, I hear) where the -o in ideo falls on the short syllable of an iamb.
morcus' tool is goat or looking directly at this kind of stuffin Virgil ideo must have a long o to fit with the hexameters
>>25625060Who gives a shit nigga
>>25625159>a long o to fitit has a long ō because the o is long (id + eō)
>>25625065u -- -- -u- u --->>25625082>on the short syllable of an iambin iambic meters, the short element can in most cases be resolved as a long or two shorts. have you ever read Plautus? it is evident if you read these very verses>an ideo tantum..."..tum" is the first element of a iambic foot and it is long
>>25625206people who study latin
The iambic trimeter (scazon in this case, i.e. with anaclasis in the last foot) has stricter rules about which syllables can be resolved compared with the typical iambic verses from Roman comedy (it still has two anceps elements)In this case Martial decided to ignore the rule and resolve the first element of the second foot anyways, but compensating with a short syllable in the first anceps (long in all the other verses)As far as I know, anapestic correption isn't a thing. But it would be very interesting if someone could show a few examples of anapestic words (uu–) with their last vowel shortened.
>>25625065From our experience studying authors who grew up in or around ancient Rome, actually.
>>25623834more like>lemme teach dead pipo about their dead language
>>25625268>an ancient Roman senator didn’t pronounce a word with the vowel quantity a 20th century German decided was correct I’m going to kms
>>25625594but they did, even the plebs, and in fact you can reconstruct most of them from today's plebs' speech>20th germpetrarca wrote classical hexameters with normal quantity in the middle ages>Et michi conspicuum meritis belloque tremendum,>Musa, virum referes, Italis cui fracta sub armis>Nobilis eternum prius attulit Africa nomen.
>>25625675>>petrarcha wrote classical hexameters with normal quantity in the middle ages>A roman senator didn’t pronounce a word with the vowel quantity I and a 14th century Italian wanted him to I’m going to kms
>working 40 years to produce the 50th English translation of the Aeneid
>>25625325You might think so, but when I grew up in ancient Rome, I found there was a great variety of pronunciation. In fact, Martial was a contemporary of mine, and I recall he was bullied ruthlessly for his outrageous Hispanic accent and for his anapestic shortening. "Anapestulus," they called him.
>>25625325Crazy idea but Plautus didn’t write identically to Catullus
>>25625724Oh, wow! Metrically correct "classical hexameters?" The meter so easy a baby could get it right? What a big boy!
>>25625751Martial must’ve just been retarded or something then
>>25625265The doubt I have is I thought the meter has certain feet that are fixed iambs. Maybe you could point to another choliambic example from Martial that has a long/spondee in that position? If it's not actually a rule that the syllable should be long, that would be a satisfying explanation. Otherwise, if there's no counterexamples, why rule out that Martial intended the -o to be pronounced as short in this particular case just because it's normally treated as long?
>>25625767He was so retarded, he didn't even know how to pronounce "ideo."
>>25625809What a sussy baka
2000 years from now there will be fierce debates over every single surviving instance of irregularity in English, someone will declare Tennyson the standard and decide Jefferson didn’t know English.
Anthon, Charles. Elements of Latin Prosody and Metre. New York: Harper & Brothers, 1824, 41–44.https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Elements_of_Latin_prosody_and_metre_%28IA_elementsoflatinp00anth%29.pdfPages 41-44; p. 43 specifically lists ideo and shows the mentioned Martial verse as an example of ideo sometimes having short o. Page 41 explains the general rule in more detail.
