Lexical edition>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·>>25547982>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw>Mέγα τὸ ANE·https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg>Work in progress FAQhttps://rentry dot co/n8nrkoAll Classical languages are welcome.
τοῖς βουλομένοις τ' ἀναγιγνώσκειν Ἑλληνιστί
>>25580183Is old church slavonic included? Is there even anything worth reading in old church slavonic?
>>25580045https://www.weather.gov/safety/lightning-indoors
>>25580208>in Faradaii cavea non habitat ille
>>25580045Since you’re probably lying (which I know because I disagree with you as a primary source so you must be lying) that means you’re clearly actually not in an apartment, rather you’re likely under a tree in an open field and Zeus is about to blast you with his hellenic influence.
>>25580308SORRY, I CAN'T HEAR YOU! I'M ON MY LANDLINE PHONE TALKING TO MY GRANDMOTHER (I'M ARGUING ABOUT HOW AWFUL ZEUS IS AND HOW MUCH I HATE HIM) WHILE TAKING A SOAK IN THE HOT TUB ON MY BALCONY! I'LL GIVE YOU A RING NEXT!
>Excepta est Caesaris adventus ab omnibus municipiis et coloniis incredibili honore atque amore. Tum primum enim veniebat ab illo universae Galliae bello. Nihil relinquebatur quod ad ornatum portarum, itinerum, locorum omnium qua Caesar iturus erat excogitari poterat. Cum liberis omnis multitudo obviam procedebat, hostiae omnibus locis immolabantur, tricliniis stratis fora templaque occupabantur, ut vel exspectatissimi triumphi laetitia praecipi posset. Tanta erat magnificentia apud opulentiores, cupiditas apud humiliores.Id novissimum capitulum esse debet. Comentarii Caesaris De Bello Gallico tandem perlegi. Now, on to the civil war.
poasting it myselfthe anon who made the humanist table wanted to modify it IIRC so not sure I should post it yet
>>25580197definitely, though OCS anons are rare, there was one some months ago
Quando classicam litteraturam latinam intellegam? V (5) casos grammaticales scio atque maiorem vocabularium habeo, sed classici scriptores me expulsant.LLPSI liberum concludo ante litteraturam legere?
>>25581521liber Roma Aeterna tibi legendus est, deinde incipe legere ceteros libros ex LLPSI
>>25581521ignoro litterarium stylum; latinam linguam lego ut anglice. Haec est maxima difficultas.
>>25580925I’m just away from my PC. I’ll poast l8r.
>>25581521si iam satis progressum esse tibi videtur libris ad tirones scriptis legendis, cursus auctorum eligendus tibi bonus est sicut alii fecerunt, exempli gratia, quem haud opus est memorare, Caesarem(bene legas vel potius perlegas commentarios suos de bello Gallico donec facile possis omnes paginas intellegere sine lexico), deinde Nepotem, deinde Sallustium, deinde Senecam: post patratam his lectis auctoribus(non dico perlectis, satis sit libello frui uno vel duobus ut ediscas eorum scribendi habitum) quamvis minorem facundiam, legas quos maxime libet nolique animum demittere, necesse erit semper spatiolum temporis ut cuius legis auctoris genus scribendi familiare fiat
>>25580730The ending to the Gallic War is so kino.>Omni Gallia pacata atque amicitia inter populum Romanum et omnes barbaros facta, omne negotium in occidentali orbis parte confectum ratus, Caesar in orientem solem spectabat. Ne finem quidem Caesaris erat. Cum familiares atque amicos plorantes valere iussisset, Caesar equum conscendit et solus in orientales fines equitavit, ubi multasque adventuras alias suscepit, quod tamen est fabula aliud in tempus.
>>25580730>idid != it>comentariicommentarios
>>25581702I didn’t mean id as “it” so I’m not really sure what to take away from that feedback.>commentariosYep brain fart
>>25581521Cheat (pic related), and don't hold yourself to too high a standard. You don't have to achieve perfection to achieve something productive. When you read a text, don't have the attitude that you have to understand everything 100%, that you have to be able to lecture on all the grammatical details, that you have to perfectly remember all the vocabulary. You are familiarizing yourself with the content of the work. You are learning new words even if you don't remember 100% of the words in the book. You are gaining exposure to examples of Latin grammar even if you can't recognize and explain all the rules. You can follow the main thread of the text even if the exact syntax of some parts is cloudy. You can come back in the future and read it with deeper understanding. Anything really worth reading once is worth reading twice.Don't neglect works for students. You'll build up your vocabulary faster the more pages you can read every day.
TANDEMHEICVIREIDOCTEIQVEINEOINOQVIDEMINTERPVNCTOVNQVAMOITEIENIMSAPIENTESOINIVORSEIQVONIAMINNONNULLAOBSCVRITATEVTASIMPLICIBVSREMOTASIENTQVAEVOLGODIVOLGARENONOPORTEATOPERIRECONVENIREHOCPLOIRVMEIOPTVMORVMCONSENTIONTSCIVNTVIDENTVRQVEIMEDDOCTEGARRVLENTINVENI
>>25581818AVE
>>25551636>Who yelled?QVISALTADVOCEDDEEISIMPLOVRANSCLAMAVITINDESERTOD>Someone is angry with you.EXSISTITOBIIECTUMANIMATVSRATIONEINBOVTUSINTEROMNIAQVAESEIVEDEOSEIVECHAOFINXAESUNTQVEIINTEDIRASCIERVIDETVR>This plant can grow everywhere.PLANTAHAECQVAMANTETEDNUNCOINFELIXNUNCVIDESINOINVORSOLOCOCRESCIERPOTEESEABOMNIDUENOVIRSAPIENSQUEFERTUR
>>25581898Id =! It
I have been spending a week on each chapter of Roma Aeterna, but I feel like I can do 5 days. Basically, it's not even that hard, I'm finishing chapter 43 right now (rn)
Roma Aeterna melior est quam LLPSI?
>>25581999Nice trips retard
>>25581999pars est LLPSI, nonne? secunda nisi fallor
Lingua latina Capitulum tertium decimum iratus sum est. Tempus malum improbus est!
>>25580925rolling
>>25583475I noticed by reading both the Greek and Latin that there seems to be some bible specific double meaning of creation(i.e the abstract act) and creature(the created thing) i.e κτίσις seems to mean both and Jerome here specifically in Romans 1.20 however uses "creatura" where creatio would seem more fitting>τὰ γὰρ ἀόρατα αὐτοῦ ἀπὸ κτίσεως κόσμου τοῖς ποιήμασιν νοούμενα καθορᾶται>Invisibilia enim ipsius, a creatura mundi, per ea quæ facta sunt, intellecta, conspiciuntur
Patrabo tuum ego oculum
Ranarum viscera numquam inspexi.
>>25583570neque ipse pol Europicola, estne adhuc mos in scholis americanis hoc genus docendi adhibere in biologia explicanda?
>>25583597Equidem in schola animal cui nomen est Limulus polyphemus dissecare debui
>>25583342Postrema pars est facilis colloquium cum Aemilia et Quintus, sed amorem inter eos expectabam. Aeger puerus laetus est cum curiosa Aemilia sessa in suam frontem.(I'm pretty sure that last IN needs accusative instead of ablative)
>>25583722Cum Aemilia et Quinto**, not Quintus. fuck me
>>25583638arthropodem dissecare fas habeo, ranae hercle non habeantur dissecandi materia
>>25583823consentimus igitur
>>25583638>>25583597De improvisio recordatus sum nonnullos condiscipulos etiam porcellos fetales dissecuisse
>>25583842si eo pacto factum esset ut deinde vescendae datae essent carnes non inviderem, sed profecto quoniam adolescentes tetigerunt eas haud mirer si magistri post perfectam dissectionem eiecerint purgandas ne quidem escas faciendas bestiis
>>25583887Omnes hic porcelli formaldehyde conditi erant. Ideo nequaquam esui apti erant
>>25583895*hipeccavi
>Cum data sint equitī bis quīna nomismata, quārē bis deciēs sōlus, Sextiliāne, bibis? Jam dēfēcisset portantīs calda ministrōs, sī nōn pōtārēs, Sextiliāne, merum.>Sextiliāne, bibis quantum subsellia quīnque sōlus: aquā totiēns ēbrius esse potes; non cōnsessōrum vīcīna nomismata tantum, aera sed ā cuneīs ulteriōra petis. Nōn haec Paelignīs agitur vīndēmia prēlīs ūva nec in Tuscīs nāscitur ista jugīs, testa sed antīquī fēlīx siccātur Opīmī, egerit et nigrōs Massica cella cadōs. Ā cōpōne tibi faex Lālētāna petātur, sī plūs quam deciēs, Sextiliāne, bibis.Martial is very funny
pro juppiter latine legere non possumadjuvate me amicicapitulum 42 legi
>>25584048>legi>legere non possum
Vacuum Eques optimus lusus (or iucus?) est; meam memoriam oblitterare volo et rursus Radiantiam Absolutam vincere. Crista peditis secundum lusum salvat.
why so little or none of these adverbs (atque/ac, rursus, etiam, autem, enim, sed, ne, nam, etc.) survived in the romance languaves? Not even Italian and Sardinian have them.
Sine ullo ventoSub imperio PhoebiExardet terra
Hello /clg/. I was wondering if anyone here had any info on different poetic styles from the classical languages they study. Any that you know of would be fine though it would help if they source was in english.It is vaguely off topic so sorry to ask if that's a problem. I make conlangs as a hobby and am trying to research/recreate poetic styles that differ from the normal English rhyme scheme/syllable counting structure we use. Ancient/Classical Chinese would be especially interesting if anyone knows which direction to go for that.
>>25584976There’s stuff I could tell you about Latin or Classical Chinese but you would use it to blab peoples’ ears off about the “language” you “invented” and I won’t be made complicit in that.
>>25585023Listen man I keep my autism to myself. Theres a reason Im asking here and not going on reddit
Hellas’s fate was sealed the second Athenian women started wearing veils, which allowed women to exit their designated interior apartment and enter other rooms in the house.
>>25584365good question, if one looks both at the etymology of modern romance adverbs but also latin adverbs often they are composite of older roots, so the question is maybe how periods of more or less fossilization of forms alternate i.e it's not like either proto-romance speakers didn't need adverbs or there was a total absence of people knowledgeable of classical Latin, but for whatever reason there is a push for recreating adverbs from more common words which end up replacing older onesItalian btw apparently had eziandio until somewhat recently but it probably was some learned borrowing from centuries after the formation of basic romance languages
>>25580925Rolling
>>25584976The meter of classical Latin and Greek poetry is based on syllable length, rather than stress. This is interesting (to me as an English speaker) for one thing because it often creates a conflict between the metrical structure and the natural stress of the words.
>Reading DBG>Work through slowly with Loeb>Read Latin, then English, then Latin and resolve all gaps in comprehension>Finally finish>Throughout, chapters ranged from 85%-95% comprehension with the occasional easy 100% chapter>Feeling kind of discouraged at how much of a grind it was and how reliant I was on English to get more than the gist>Start reading Nepos>95%-100% comprehension on first pass of the Latin, reading carefully>Open thelatinlibrary, go to de bello alexandrino and read a few random chapters>100% comprehension reading full-speedI am fully convinced now that after Familia Romana one can basically just Loeb their way into fluency as long as they do enough monolingual reading of easier stuff on the side and read the latin side twice on the Loeb. Throughout working through DBG my fluency and confidence in works from all eras of Latin shot up substantially including golden age poetry. I wonder what working through 10 volumes of loebs gets you.
Ok I can also just read Livy now. Thanks Caesar. I figure after I do Nepos, the civil war, and the misc Caesarian works, I'll do a volume or two of Livy, and then Sallust. Then from there I'll start forcing myself to read stuff other than history (but I'll probably just keep reading historians anyways).
Vir quidam amico, avaro etsi diviti, querebatur rem suam continenter in ruinas labi. Suasit alter illo: "Si pecuniam conservare velis, debes vivere quemadmodum ego vivo." Cui respondit ille hoc consilium exsequi tempus fore cum pecunia omnino dissipata esset.
None of you can read Latin. None of you ever will. Disgusting. Garbage. YUCK. VomitTROCIOUS
>>25586520possum
>>25586520I may not ever be able to read Latin--'tis true--but I can try nevertheless to translate these fine specimens of English wit into the Latin tongue. Behold!Carolus II olim Dyonisio iussit ut inveniat hominem qui corrumpi non possit. "Tres homines, inquit, "aerario praefeci. Omnes missi in septentriones cum pecunia defecerunt."Dionysius repente dicit: "Mivertum, domine, defero.""Mivertus?" rex clamat. "Quin, Mivertus iam est fur!"Respondet Dionysius: "Propterea corrumpi non potest."
Homo libros de paranoia ab bibliotechario quaerit. Bibliotecharius susurrit: "a tergo sunt."
>>25586584hehe
new bilingual drip: Lute + Firefox's new split tab view feature whaddaya think
>>25587649Neat
it's tiemEasyWe stayed hidden.A new merchant is in town.Please don't be so mean to my horse.MediumThe softer you pull the easier it will come out.Don't think just because he is related to the king he can do as he pleases.Without reinforcements from the east, they had little hope of resisting more than two days.HardWrite a short narrative with someone describing in first person someone else preparing a dish of your choice.
>>25588016Illum observo dimittentem partes caeparum in aeno. Flamma creptitans per umbras lumina saltantia in parietes iactat. Olfacioque holera suavia, sed repente moneor de eius consiliis. Si modo cultrem prehendere possim, forsitan haec vincula quae manus et pedes vinciunt secare possim. Sin aliter mihi spes relinquitur nulla.
>>25588578
>>25588016Easy>Non desimus latere.>Novus mercator in oppido est.>Noli, obsecro, in equum meum tam crudelis esse.Medium>Quo lenius velles, eo facilius exibit.>Noli putare illum valere, cum regi cognatione iunctus sit, quodlibet facere.>Sine subsidio ex oriente, exigua spes resistendi plus quam duos dies restat.
>>25588016>>25588578>>25588618>>25588698magnum proelium in latrina gerebam
>>25588711Ne timeas, amice. Auxilium adferro.
>>25588752gratias (omnibus modis) tibi, amice, agebo
>>25588016ἐμένομεν κεκρυμμένοιὀθνεῖός τις ἥκει ἔμπορος ἐν τῇ κόμῃ νεωστίἱκετεύω σε μὴ τὸν ἐμὸν ἵππον ταπεινοῦνὅσῳ μαλακῶς ἐφέλκεις, τοσούτῳ ῥᾳδίως ἐκσπασθήσεταιμὴ δόκει πᾶν ἔξεσθαί οἱ ἕνεκα τοῦ ξυγγενὴς εἶναι τοῦ βασιλέωςοὐ μὴν εὐελπίδες ἦν πλέον ἢ δύο ἡμέρα 'νθέξειν ἄνευ τῶν ἀπ' ἠοῦς προσγενησομένωνἔσθ' ὅτε θεῶμαι μήτερ' ἐμὴν ἰχθύες σκευάζουσαν, μὴ πάνυ ποικίλως, πρῶτον μὲν καθαίρουσαν αὐτοὺς σπλάγχν' ἐξαιροῦσαν κάρα τε καὶ οὐράν, καὶ δὴ και τὰς λεπίδας ἀποτρίβουσαν, δεῦτερον δέ, ἐπειδὰν ὁμαλίζῃ αὐτοὺς τὰ πλευρὰ ῥηγνῦσα ἵν' ἄν ὅλως πλατεῖς ὦσιν, ξηραίνουσαν καὶ πάττουσαν ἀλεύρῳ καί τισιν ἀρτύμασιν, καὶ τέλος ξανθίζουσαν ἑκατέρωθεν ἐν ἐλαίῳ· τὰ οῦν πολλὰ παρατίθενται ἐπὶ τῇ τραπέζῃ καὶ ἅλς καὶ κίτριον μῆλον ἢ πολλάκις ἡδύσματι τῷ νῦν Ἀγγλιστὶ καλουμένῳ onions-sauce
How long does learning Latin take to be able to read Caesar?
>>25589302Took me 2 inconsistent years. Could be a lot shorter.
Hey, nerds, what does >>25589438 mean and what is migrant and attic greek?
>>25589673I mean it's just modern Greek you can translate it(give me your money and I'll rape you infidel) but it's almost entirely understandable to someone who knows Attic(dialect of golden age Athens) with the only exception of λεφτά being ambiguous and θα apparently being used to construct the future
>>25589302>>25589372Depends on what you mean to "read" Caesar. You're not going to be able to read Caesar like a native Latin speaker after two years study. (If you disagree, let me know what you did so I can copy you.) Just "cheat" (>>25581757) and use a parallel translation. If you want to approach Caesar as early as possible for the sake of the content of the historical content of the book, a translation will allow you to do so meaningfully sooner than any other method. On the other hand, if you want to study Caesar for the sake of the language, with Caesar being a benchmark of good Latin prose, then no better way than to expose yourself to his words as much as possible, and you'll make faster progress bumbling through the book in a week with the help of a translation (where needed) than laboriously working through the text over several months armed with only the help of a dictionary*. In fact, according to the info page on Geoffery Steadman's "College Caesar" page, the old Caesar-based AP Latin course only cover a small fraction of the book over a year-long class.Book 1: Chapters 1-7 Book 4: Chapters 24-35Book 5: Chapters 24-48Book 6: Chapters 13-20*Remember dictionaries are just translations on a smaller scale, so using a dictionary is CHEATING at Latin.
>>25589896>you'll make faster progress bumbling through the book in a week with the help of a translation (where needed) than laboriously working through the text over several months armed with only the help of a dictionaryTruke
>>25588016Feel free to roast this failure:>we stayed hiddenoperti mansimus>a new merchant is in townnovus mercator in urbe (est)>please don't be so mean to my horsenoli esse rudis equo>the softer you pull the easier it will come outvafrius educ; facilior exit>don't think just because he is related to the king he can do as he pleasesUnfortunately, I need to simplify this to: "noli ... is amicus regis est, sed ..."
>>25589896>>25589927How come that when reading a modern book in a language like english, spanish, french, etc. the greatest difficulty is some fancy words here and there, but when reading something like Caesar in Latin, I am ruthlessly humbled?
>>25588805Malos nuntios. Cum exercitus in itinere esset, hostes nostros per insidias adorti ad unum trucidaverunt. Nullum auxilium nunc ad te venturum est. In manus Dei te commendo. Valeee...*tenues recedo in auras*
>>25589949not bad remember urbs usually refers to relatively big cities or even Rome itself implicitly, for "town" maybe oppidum is better
>>25589954Spanish and French are much closer to English in every way than Golden Age Latin is. The syntax is particularly alien. It just takes a lot of time getting used to. But also, a lot of cognates are sufficiently different from their modern loanword meaning that it doesn’t allow the seamless transition that romance can have. It’s very rewarding once you can read it though and it does advance your English/Romance a lot.I feel like it’s a little misleading when Caesar gets called the “easy author” because the classical corpus is just generally really difficult especially at first. Many latinists literally just don’t read past 200a.d. so they don’t understand just how much easier stuff like the vulgate or a lot of medieval works are (in part because of their more direct ties to English/Romance). There are mountains and mountains of great works to read that are easier. Caesar has quite a narrow vocabulary and quite dense and precise syntax. Most classicists get a ton of training in grammar/syntax and have a small vocabulary, so Caesar is the first author they can manage lexically. Caesar feels easy in hindsight after you’ve gotten through him, he’s not actually easy though and I was kind of shocked to find how many other authors (like Livy) I found oddly more syntactically straightforward compared to him.
>>25590090Latin is just a weird language for pretty much any modern European (idk about Indo-Aryan languages) Indo-European speakers, even Balto-Slavic languages are not really that similar when it comes to grammar and syntax
>>25590192It predates our sprachbund while medieval latin is firmly the father of that sprachbund.
>>25580188δῖα Τύχη, τερπνόν τί μοι ἀναγνωσκόντι δοθήτω
>>25589954If you can read a book (we'll say a translation of Caesar) in a modern language, like Spanish or French, with the same ease as reading a book in your native language, it's because you know those languages better than you know Latin. Modern languages are easier to learn to a high level today because there is more media in those languages, besides the fact that English (if that's your native language) is arguably somewhat closer to Spanish or French than to Latin.Although, come to think of it, a translation might not always be a true measure of the original. One of the grammatical difficulties in Caesar's commentaries (for me) is the indirect discourse, and keeping track of who the pronouns are referring to. If I remember correctly, the Loeb edition I have turns the longer passages of indirect speech into direct speech.Don't be discouraged. Latin is hard. If we keep working at it every day, we'll get better little by little.
>>25592019ThanksIf I work at it every day using this, will it make me learn Latin?
>>25591887παραίτησά τι τερπνὸν καὶ μὰ Δι' ἐδεχόμην· ἀνέγνωκα γὰρ νυνὶ τὴν τῷ Ξενοφῶντι γεγραμμένην Ἀπολογίαν τοῦ Σωκράτουςοὐ μόνον ὥς γε πολλάκις δικαίως λέγεται ἡδὺς τὸ ἀναγιγνώσκειν ὁ Ξενοφῶν ἀλλὰ καὶ αὐτὸ τὸ βιβλίον ἐστὶν ἄξιον τῆς τοῦ ξυγγραφέως φήμηςκαὶ δὴ καὶ πρὶν ἀνεγνωκέναι τοῦτο οὐκ ᾔδειν τὸ περὶ Παλαμήδου τέλος· ᾔδειν μὲν τὸν μῦθον τὸν Ὀδυσσέα φάσκοντα πεῖραν λαβεῖν τοῦ μὴ Ἴλιόνδε νέεσθαι δόλῳ καὶ κωλυθῆναι ὑπὸ Παλαμήδου, ἀλλ' οὐ δὲ τὸν ἄλλον τὸν ἀπατῆσαι φάσκοντα τοῦτον τιμωρίας ἕνεκα ὡς προδότην Ἀχαιῶν πρὸς Πριάμου ἵν' ὑπ' αὐτῶν καταλεύοιτο
>>25592028Allen actually wrote a primer, which teaches reading fluency, for use for beginners before the grammar that assumes no prior knowledge of formal grammar. You should read that first. Just search “Allen latin primer.”
>>25592028To clarify, you should use Allen’s Latin Primer because the grammar will not teach you Latin. It’s an excellent grammar for people who already know Latin.
>>25592750>>25592234so it would not teach one Latin
>>25592761No, anon, no it would not. The primer is really really good though and if I could start over with Latin I’d probably start with it.
Monolingual, rereading Caesar wpm is about 170, reading Livy with no tools sits at more like 80. Reading de bello civili or other caesarian stuff is over 130. I feel like just reading a shitton of Livy might be the way to the promised land since his works are so long and since so many ancient and neo latin historians are deliberately derivative of him (and Caesar).
>>25593107first and second book of AUC are GOAT but I remember it getting kinda boring afterwards once the start getting more into the gritty political drama, but maybe it's just me
>>25593107my latin wpm was 250 in highschool, I could have gone pro but had an eye injury that ruined my career
>>25594203I was intending on doing volume 1 from loeb and then the volume that contains hannibal.>>25594255One day
Any CC bros ITT I’m curious to hear how it compares to learning to speak/hear a language.Would CC be difficult in the way Mandarin or Japanese are or would it be relatively straightforward albeit dense since the skill being trained is so focused on “learn characters, grind out the canon.”I found Latin easier to get past the beginner reading stage in part because the well defined canon meant I could remain narrowly focused on what to learn.
>loeb子曰: a weeb watches subbed anime and then lectures you about the nuances of japanese
>>25594481I can read monolingually at this point I just want to be able to refer to it since I want to intensively read some specific works.
>>25594486>intensively readwtf does this even mean?
I'm 12 chapters into Athenaze, can I expect to (slowly) go through Xenophon when I finish, or do I need the second volume?
>>25570356I actually asked about it there and got a long-winded answer about not making things "artificially" easy, and how Latin and Ancient Greek are and always have been languages for the elite or something like that, and how punctuation is unnecessary and anachronistic anyway, so it should be used sparingly, if at all. I again asked if writing like that wasn't actually making those messages "artificially" harder to read for no reason at all, since punctuation is simply another modern convention just like a few others they don't seem to mind using. And then I got banned for a month kek.
>>25589954western euro sprachbund (std. av. eur.), these langs will probably keep converging even more
>>25594560>IACTUALLYASKEDABOUTITTHEREANDGOTALONGWINDEDANSWERABOUTNOTMAKINGTHINGSARTIFICIALLYEASYANDHOWLATINANDANCIENTGREEKAREANDALWAYSHAVEBEENLANGUAGESFORTHEELITEORSOMETHINGLIKETHATANDHOWPUNCTUATIONISUNNECESSARYANDANACHRONISTICANYWAYSOITSHOULDBEUSEDSPARINGLYIFATALLIAGAINASKEDIFWRITINGLIKETHATWASNTACTUALLYMAKINGTHOSEMESSAGESARTIFICIALLYHARDERTOREADFORNOREASONATALLSINCEPUNCTUATIONISSIMPLYANOTHERMODERNCONVENTIONJUSTLIKEAFEWOTHERSTHEYDONTSEEMTOMINDUSINGANDTHENIGOTBANNEDFORAMONTHKEKSPQRFIXEDTHATFORYOU
>>25594690>SPQRFIXEDTHATFORYOUGRATIASTIBIAGOGERMANESPQR
>>25594543τί χρὴ ταχύτητος; can't tell you not to do it but me? I'd finish the textbook(which is what I did)
>>25584365Romance languages developed due to a sharp, widespread decline in median IQ, mostly as a result of immigration from the “dumb zones” in the south and, especially, the north. (The effects of 'plumbum' plumbing etc. must be taken into account, too.) (The people in the north wouldn’t develop anything resembling a civilization until their Christianization and the subsequent genetic influx it brought.) The east had already suffered the same fate, so you can add that to the list of causes, too.During this period, abstract connectives, conjunctions and adverbs simply fell out of use. Subordination was almost entirely absent; coordination and parataxis predominated. These features were gradually replaced by newly coined neologisms as median IQ slowly rose again thanks to natural selection (the 'retardapocalypse' a.k.a. the Dark Ages.)
>Study carried to such a point that we give up prayer and recollection, that we cease to read Holy Scripture, and the words of the saints and of great souls--study carried to the point of forgetting ourselves entirely, and of concentrating on the objects of study so that we neglect the Divine Dweller within us, is an abuse and a fool's game. To suppose that it will further our progress and enrich our production is to say that the stream will flow better if it's spring is dried up.Wise words. Remember to pray the rosary and read Epitome Historiae Sacrae every day.
I want to study Latin but I am inconsistent and lazy, so I never make any progress.Does anyone here with language learning experience have any study tips for retarded beginners like me?
>>25581697It is kino anon. Also dat ass on that horse ngl.
>>25594497Are you being intentionally dense
>>25594560>punctuation is unnecessary and anachronistic anywaySo are spaces and the lower case
>>25595161>read Epitome Historiae Sacrae every day.Read the vulgate every day retard
>>25595229LEGENIGERLEGE
>>25595285Based
is·it·cringe·to·use·a·keyboard·layout·that·has·the·middle·dot·that·roman·inscriptions·sometimes·use?
I will NOT learn pronunciation.
>>25595229routine and get the right book for you
>>25595229I have a habit of reading every day and I’ve done it most days for 2 years and I started small and now I can read latin
>>25594630Syra pulcherrimum nasum habet. Julia improba puella est.
>>25595341INTERPVNCTAININSCREIPTIONIBVSADHIBVNTVRQVIAADPOPLICVMINSAPIENTEMINSCREIBVNTVRQVEILEGERENEQVINONTVIREIOPTVMEISCREIPTIONEMCONTINVAMMAVOLVNT
>>25577258>charusThe scholarship and knowledge was already there, what they lacked was a scientific approach to historical linguistics, which developed centuries later. They probably thought carus was etymologically related to χάρις. Same reason even the Romans wrote pulcher with an h.Kind of like deBt douBt receiPt iSland nowadays. The Frenchies enjoy doing this shit too (temPs vinGt etc)
>pulcherFun fact: pastanegri will froth at the mouth if you pronounce <ce ci> as /ke ki/ but pronouncing <pulcher> as /pulker/ is okay because some Hioniae-hinsidiae guy wanted to signal he partaked in the Greek vice.
>>25596066I think my phone is now possessed. Thanks.
>>25596140To our defense, that's what we are taught in school. Textbooks *might* contain a casual mention of the reconstructed pronunciation at best.
>>25596140I rarely heard/read Italians being autistic about the change in pronunciation, Greeks are more anal about it
St. Jerome often refers to his life of religious devotion in his letters as a "castration" (castrare). Not a fan of that
>>25597259It means to cut off your genitals? I thought it meant to make camp (castra)! No wonder I got banned from volunteering for the Boy Scouts.
>>25596140>>25597008>>25596379man, I lack the words to describe how much C =\= K bothers me. I consider it one of the greatest tragedies that have ever hapenned
I wish there were good cheap Latin paperbacks. Oxford Classical Texts cost like at least 30€ :(
>>25597611bur, rusconi, garzanti, bompiani, feltrinelli, oscar mondadori, etc etc
>>25597508when applied to Latin this is merely an allophonic variation, all phonemic values remain the same
>>25597508I will continue to pronounce Latin the way it's been pronounced in the 1000 years of my country's history, and so will the hundreds of thousands of students of medicine, law, theology, philosophy, history, archaeology etc. And there is nothing you esperantist, globalist weirdos can do about it :)
>>25598354It seems there was a misunderstanding here. I mean pronouncing "cicero" =/= "kikero" is the thing that crawls under my skin. I don't know what globalists have to do with it, >>25598702. My country too has a history, but I deny the part of it that I repute unworthy. where I live, there has been a vowel shift for the last 2 decades. I condemn it and call other people unread, uneducated and uncultured everytime I listen to it. I'll refuse to adopt it to the very end even if people stop understanding my utterances (which already happens when I talk to the youngsters.)
>>25597321kek apparently castrare, castra, and careo are all cognate. I wonder if the connection of castrate to castra is like that of templum/τέμενος to τέμνω, i.e. a camp is a place that is "cut off" from the surrounding area
>>25598744>I mean pronouncing "cicero" =/= "kikero"You mean using [t͡ʃ] before front vowels? In this context, [t͡ʃ] is an allophone of /k/.Man, I can't understand how people can develop such strong feelings about palatalized consonants. Both sides of this "debate" are so fucking bizarre I can't even imagine how anyone could argue himself into such a position. Especially when none of you retards has ever recoreded anything worth listening anyway.
Classical and ecclesiastical are so mutually intelligible that I really don't give a shit one way or another. My problem is the modern Greek pronunciation of Ancient Greek because I can barely understand that at all
>>25599052jist priniinci ill viwils is thiy wiri /i/, priblim silvid
>>25599042Since you don't mind it, lech me ju ich for other worjs as well.>someone "proves" a habit of yours to be a 1000 yo misunderstanding>spend a few weeks practicing at home to fix it>simple asthere's nothing wrong with prescribing language to maximize consistency and logic.
>>25597508>>25598744The most annoying think is κ transliterated as k, but χ transliterated as ch rather than kh. Just fucking end me. It's all because of the fucking Romans too, I 'ate da north.
>>25599122>t. does't know what an allophone isYep, this is the kind of person that likes to argue about traditional vs restituta.
your posts made me have a little lexical mandela effect: in my mind Kalendae was a term imported from Greeks and one if not the only native Latin word that kept the initial K, but apparently it really is just a gerundive related to calō that kept the spelling archaic?
>>25599122>there's nothing wrong with prescribing language to maximize consistency and logic.I readed your post and I thinked: this anon bes right!
>>25599173>allo ~ alius>phone = sonus>allophone ~ alternative soundwhat's so special about a consonant having an alternative pronounciation?
my initial comment was about general spelling x pronounciation, including but not limited to latin
>>25588016I haven't studied any of this in forever, lol>titoinaycah>tepehuacan yancuic pochtecatl>mā camō xicayollo nocaballo (no native word for horse, so i just used the spanish one)
>>25599610classical nahuatl? breddy cool
>>25599393>a consonant having an alternative pronounciationNot quite.
>>25599624yeah, it can be pretty neat, especially stuff like the one-word poems. Unfortunately I'm a brainlet without much free-time, and most of the language resources for it seem aimed at academics studying linguistics, so learning it is something of an uphill battle for me.
>be manchu>i'm gonna conquer chaina>don't, they'll assimilare u>i'll be fiiiine>conquer chaina>manchu national lang>but they assimilate you>try to preserve (you)re lang>can't>now only 20 L1 (literally, unironically)good news /clg/, manchu is about to become a classical language
>>25599673yeah these seem languages that wouldn't have exactly a lot of very accessible learning material for people doing it as a hobbyLLMs might come in handy but I'll probably get flak for it
>>25600028i've actually used it before to translate some sentences, but it didn't do a very good job, like using spelling from different modern dialects, and just making-up words here and there. The lack of resources ends-up making the llm's kind of shit too.
>>25594417He's memeing just like boomers saying they could bench 405 high school and could've gotten into the NFL.
Friendly reminder that if you don't use vulgar Plautian pronunciation (miless, lacc, amāt, ae > ɛ, oe > e, au > ɔ, etc etc) you're pretty much speaking a conlang.
>>25600949>ae > ɛthere's expressions imported directly from Greek that have αι for ae why would that be ε?
>>25601039India Pale Alphabet
>>25600949>vulgar Plautian pronunciationI want to larp as upper class Romans, not poor people
>>25601086They also spoke like that, saying calidus instead of caldus was considered pedantic, for example. Or you could just learn esperanto, which is pretty much the same thing.
>>25601106The fact that certain vowels were commonly reduced across all registers doesn't mean that all features of vulgar pronunciation were used indiscriminately. There very obviously was a difference in register across classes
>>25601130Classical Latin is nothing but a gross and degenerate simplification of Old Latin, plastered with a layer of artificiality. If you can't deal with the raw reality of Old Latin you should study Esperanto instead.
>>25601151If you can't handle the social and contextual nuances of Latin register, then you yourself may be more comfortable learning Esperanto, which you seem to have a strange fascination with
Classical Latin is actually the degenerated koine of the provincians and foreigners. It turns out that the real patrician choice has always been the good ol' "vulgar" register. Read old and archaic inscriptions. Read what the classical city slickers tell about how the real patricians used to talk back then. Read how they know they will never pass as actual old stock Romans so they cope calling their speech "subrusticum". Those provincians not only ruined the Urbs but its language as well.
>>25601158>If you can't handle the social and contextual nuances of Latin registerIt's not me who defaults to the artifical register.
>>25601170Upper class Romans used affected, learned forms of speech in formal settings, but even in informal contexts, they didn't speak like plebeian characters in Plautus. I could direct you towards some articles on the effect of education, gender, class, and diachronic change in Latin speech, if you are actually interested in understanding it rather than dismissing it all as "artificial"
>>25601182>I could direct you towards some articles on the effect of [...] gender>genderwhat kind of cope is this lmao>i CoUld ReDireCt U toWarDs arTcLes AbOuT psEudOscieTifiC pSeudOConCepTs
>>25601188I know you're pretending to be retarded, but this doesn't even seem consistent for the character you seem to be going for. There are differences between men and women, including how they speakAt least this thread is getting some bumps, I guess
>be provincian Kikero>get immediately clocked due to your disgusting provincian accent>hmmmm that's ackschyally subrusticumhe coped so hard his cope has survived two millenia
>>25601193Oh, you meant "articles on the effects of sex" etc.
>>25601211You're exhibiting great focus and truly powerful powers of deduction, no doubt strengthened by your philological studies
>>25601167No one will ever address this because it is the Truth (revealed to me in a dream.) Why do you think almost no Old Latin work has survived complete, other than Plautus and Terence? Those fucking provincians had their little burning of books and burying of scholars moment while the real patricians were busy ploughing their own land with their own hands. Didn't Cato warn us all about this?>>25601222I don't need no philological knowledge to know that all language change is bad and degenerate (and probably related to secret societies and you-know-who.)older = gooder
>>25601193>There are differences between men and womenLike *shakes my head* I can't even. Read the room, chud. There's no room for patriarchal bigotry and hatred in this thread, incel.
>>25601246this, so much this
Idk about all this reconstructed and ecclesiastical shit. I was watching a documentary on Romans by HBO and it seems like they speak with English accents
>>25601246>Read the room>There's no roommeds
>>25601257Um the rest of us are in a shared room phoneposting in silence. Who the fuck are you?
>>25599201that's actually decent or at least better than convincing yourself that X is right because X is the current convention.conlang > natlang
>>25601272>I support the current conventionLiteral NPC behavior. But conlangs are gay and retarded. That's why we should always choose the oldest attested convention, or reconstruct it.
latin is... le cool?
>>25601279>That's why we should always choose the oldest attested convention, or reconstruct itAt last, a fine gentleman of great taste. I hope you don't limit yourself to reconstruct dead languages though.
I just bought pic related, arriving in 11 days. What am I in for? Never read a latin book before, going through Lingua Latina per se Illustrata and Wheelock's Latin as we speak.
>>25601935seems relatively approachable Latin stylistically from a brief look at the text
>>25601935I've only read the first book in the original Latin, but I thought it was kind of tricky. There's a lot of wordplay (or whatever you want to call it) and it passes between some different episodes of his infancy/childhood framed in a narrative of crying outto God and reflecting on his pitiful state as a sinful man (or child) and talk of that sort. It's subtle and abstract. It's not the easiest first Latin book you could pick coming straight from Familia Romana. Try it, but don't be discouraged if you find it difficult. If you're interested in the Augustine's writings in general and not just that particular work, his sermons or biblical commentaries would be an easier starting point. You can read his works side-by-side Latin-English like a Loeb edition at this website.https://augustinus.cc/If you're interested in other Catholic Latin, the easiest starting point is to look at liturgical texts and other prayers. Then the next level above that would be certain books of the Latin/Vulgate bible.
>>25601935The first half is some interesting biography. The last few books are philosophy that I couldn't follow.
>>25601684I don't, but I'm still limited by the retards I have to speak to. People look you funny if you speak correctly.
>>25602331>https://augustinus.cc/thanks, very useful!>>25602371I studied philosophy back in school, took a semester of greek but no latin. I'll be ok with the philosophical part. I guess I'm interested in the literary aspects of Augustine, and just reading it in Latin makes it even more interesting. Right now I'm interested in the autobiographical novel: Augustine-Rousseau-Chateaubriand-Proust (I know they don't all fit that category, but there's a clear continuum)
>>25602508I could've said it myself. The other day someone laughed in my face when I referred to him by singular 2nd person pronoun (thou/thee/thine)what's your story?
>in principio creavit Deus caelum et terram>terra autem erat inanis et vacua et tenebrae super faciem abyssi et spiritus Dei ferebatur super aquas>dixitque Deus fiat lux et facta est lux>et vidit Deus lucem quod esset bona et divisit lucem ac tenebrasHoly shit, this stuff is amazing. No wonder Christianity took over the whole of Europe for more than a millennia. I would submit as well if I heard these words in the middle of the night at candlelight
>>25603058The Latin vocabulary gives it extra gravitas.>inanis et vacua>tenebrae (even better in the form tenebras)>abyssi>super aquas
new guy here, pardon the overexcitement. How do you guys measure your progress? Is there an equivalent to the standard A1-C2 rank in contemporary languages? Does stating the current study book you're working on make any sense? Like "I'm on Cambridge Latin Course 3 right now"? So what level are you guys? I can see some of you are rather advanced.I'm on page 28 of the CLC-1 btw lol
>>25603347hard to say because there's kind of a differential between what is expected and what some do, e.g, speaking vs reading ability; with modern languages for the most part you are expected to be able to speak how the living speakers speak and read what they read, with Latin you could easily have a situation where someone by reading a lot has a wide range of lexical and stylistic baggage to read easily from multiple periods and authors but never developed his speaking skills specifically, while on the other hand someone else developed his speaking skills in order to talk about many topics in a certain register but be more stumped than the first example when stumbling upon a certain author from a certain periodthings like that, e.g. academics especially today don't focus on being able to speak and write in it, maybe you could have someone who knows the ins and outs of grammar, styles, lexicon, etc... but can't speak it on the go, while non academics like Luke Ranieri speak it quite fluently without necessarily having the same passive knowledge so to speak
>>25603347>How do you guys measure your progress?I don't. I can read some things easily, some slowly with a dictionary to hand, and some things are incomprehensible still.
>>25603347I'd definitely measure it by LLPSI (Lingua Latina Per Se Illustrata) chapters for beginners and actual litterature for experienced folk
I can't comprehend 100% how to use the preposition "pro" where we use "for" today>pro our sins we prayit almost seems like our sins are good>X pro Ywhy not permutare X per Y?Do you have other edge case examples?
hodie primo quartus canalis deinde interrete ipsum ambo defecerunt et, ut soleo cum absint hae temporis terendi tricae, multo longius legi, relegi ut accuratius dicam; ab Urbe condita libri primi multa capitula, remisse et magno cum delectamentovosne quoque intermissio reddit alacriores legendo?>>25604118as it often happens "for" is just one of the possible 1to1 translations, pro can mean "in front" among others but in your examples "on behalf" is perhaps the most general sense for both without being a good thing per se i.e pray on behalf of our sins, X on behalf of Y hence the sense of exchange, quid pro quoultimately one should rather have a small inventory of the main senses of a prepositionI think specifically the christian expression "pro peccato/peccatis" might very well be considered on its own right drawing from the biblical usage
>>25603058It's just a silly story of desert people scamming each other. Even the narrator is unreliable.
>>25604159ita, in Reddit rediimus
>>25601653>Gajae cannae calaeque>ante Luci
>>25603347The way (and to the extent) that most learners approach Latin, the A1-C2 grading scale wouldn't make a lot of sense, and there's no community of native speakers to judge a learner's proficiency against.Grading yourself by how far you are in a course or textbook is a bad way to measure general proficiency in the language, whether in aural or reading comprehension or in speaking or writing. Even if you complete the entire CLC, you're probably not going to have any meaningful proficiency in speaking unless you were also doing additional work outside the main course to actually work on those skills. In case you have the expectation that working through the entire CLC is going to make you a fluent speaker of Latin, you should adjust your expectations (and potentially your study routine).Actually measuring proficiency in a meaningful way is more difficult. Sometimes, even when you've made obvious objective progress, you have still feel as though you're just as bad as ever and made no progress at all. One helpful strategy is to compare your current performance against a record of your past performance. These don't have to be totally objective measurements. For example, if you re-read a text you've already read, you might note things that were difficult to understand the first time are now easier to understand, or that you can read through it in less time than you would have the first time around. With texts you haven't read before, you could have something you tried to read and gave up on previously and suddenly find it's more accessibly, and note your success in approaching new texts increases over time.The other thing about measuring progress by a textbook course is that even the "advanced" topics in the textbook course are in reality basic features of the language. So to say, "I'm on Cambridge Latin Course 3" (I'm assuming that's the last book in the series) would kind of still be on the ground level.
>>25603347Just ask us Kikerones, we will assess how bad your accent is (we can tell who sounds like a native and who doesn't) but don't ask about grammar or basic vocab usage.
>>25605242Excuse me if I'm being forward, but I can't help but note a bit of an Apulian flavor in your English accent, no? I grew up in Brundisium myself.
>>25605261North African actually, punic if you wish.
>>25605265Oh, indeed? We always regarded "Poenuli" (as we called them where I came from) with suspicion, but perhaps you are the "exceptio quae probat regulam" as my Brundisian grandmother used to say.
We were talking about Thomas Aquinas recently. I saw this video recommended on Youtube. Without necessarily endorsing any of the other videos on that channel, I thought the basic argument of the video made sense that you should start with easier works and work your way up before trying to read the Summa Theologica in depth or the more difficult works.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1QVEUV7bkAIn case anyone finds this useful, here's the recommended reading list, copied from a viewer's comment.>Preliminaries:>* William of Tocco’s The Life of St. Thomas Aquinas>* Regular praying of the Litany of St. Thomas Aquinas>>1. Letter to Br. John on how to Study>>2. On The Principles of Nature>>3. Catechetical Works:>On Faith = Sermons on the Apostles Creed and On the Articles of the Faith (Book 1)>On Hope = Commentary on the Lord’s Prayer and the Ave Maria>On Love = Sermons on the 10 Commandments and On the Perfection of the Spiritual Life>On the Sacraments = On the Articles of the Faith (Book 2)>>4. Apologetical Theology:>* On the Reasons for the Faith>* First 9 Chapters of Summa Contra Gentiles (Book 1)>>5. Scriptural Theology:>* Hic est Liber>* Rigans Montes>>6. Compendium Theolgiae>>7. De Ente et Essentia>>8. His Sermons and Scriptural commentaries supplementing alongside the above readings>>9. Supplement with Monsignor Glenn’s Introduction to Philosophy>>10. Summa Theologiae
Here's the Letter to Brother John (De Modo Studendi). I've formatted the middle into bullet points, like the English translation (of less than stellar quality) that I'll post below, for easier reading.Quia quaesisti a me, in Christo mihi carissime Ioannes, qualiter te studere oporteat in thesauro scientiae acquirendo, tale a me tibi traditur consilium: ut per rivulos, non statim in mare, eligas introire, quia per faciliora ad difficiliora oportet devenire. Haec est ergo monitio mea et instructio tua.- Tardiloquum te esse iubeo et tarde ad locutorium accedentem;- conscientiae puritatem amplectere.- Orationi vacare non desinas; - cellam frequenter diligas si vis in cellam vinariam introduci. - Omnibus te amabilem exhibe; - nihil quaere penitus de factis aliorum; - nemini te multum familiarem ostendas, quia nimia familiaritas parit contemptum et subtractionis a studio materiam subministrat; - de verbis et factis saecularium nullatenus te intromittas; - discursus super omnia fugias; - sanctorum et bonorum imitari vestigia non omittas;- non respicias a quo audias, sed quidquid boni dicatur, memoriae recommenda; - ea quae legis et audis, fac ut intelligas; - de dubiis te certifica; - et quidquid poteris in armariolo mentis reponere satage, sicut cupiens vas implere; - altiora te ne quaesieris. Illa sequens vestigia, frondes et fructus in vinea Domini Sabaoth utiles, quandiu vitam habueris, proferes et produces. Haec si sectatus fueris, ad id attingere poteris, quod affectas.Latinhttps://www.thelatinlibrary.com/aquinas/epist.shtmlEnglishhttps://isidore.co/aquinas/DearJohn.htmThe second work on the list, "De Principiis Naturae" is pretty short too.Latin-Englishhttps://aquinas.cc/la/en/~DePrinNatLatin onlyhttps://www.corpusthomisticum.org/opn.html
>tfw someone is reading aloud in class and runs into a “niger”They always break the standard pronunciation rules. It’s just so funny to me, this awkward moment of hesitation.
>>25605327They solved this problem for Huck Finn. Just replace every instance of "niger" with "servus."
>>25605274Your grandma seems wise, did she have much experience with Poenuli?Are you sure you're Apulian?
>>25605312Bene scribis, amice! Tu laudaris.intellego maiorem partem chartae tuae atque stultissimus sum.
>>25605184>>25605242lol thanks guys. I know people "speak" latin, but I assumed most people were interested in just reading it. That's my case at least. >>25605300>>25605312I took some philosophy classes at a catholic university, they all loved Thomas Aquinas, of course. What other latin philosophers are you guys reading? I remember Scotus Eriugena was fun.
>>25605327isn't it pronounced neeger not nigger anyway?
>>25606259Imagine being miserable enough that all of your vowels are actually diphthongs.niger is pronounced niger, bitch, just read it as it is with the exeption of rhotic R.
>>25606331I'm ESL, in my language (Polish) niger is indeed niger, but English doesn't seem to have a short i at all, that's why I used ee instead
>>25606346bit, fit, pit, etc. sound short enough to me.Not that I'd know anyways; my language only has 6 vowels and they're all short. To my ears, beat and bit, beach and bitch, cat and bat, naught and knot, cow and foul, bowl and no are all the same vowels.
>>25606346>in my language (Polish)how easy is Latin for you? You already have almost every Latin case in your language and that's one of the things that trips people up the most. What would you say you struggle with the most?
>>25580183Has Ecclesiastical Latin changed in grammar from the Latin of Saint Jerome? How?
>>25606936Yes. In many ways, you just >>have<< to feel it. A scholar could compile a (necessarily incomplete) list of changes but that would defeat the purpose of reading Latin. I's ok when you want to dissect a dead thing but counterproductive if you want to read Latin as a native would, i.e. as a linving thing. My advice is to stay away from all linguistics, and yes that includes most grammar books, and just anki your way to fluency. Don't anki vocab, use sentences as the basic, complete unit of meaning.
>>25606936Jerome tries to specifically maintain a balance between idiomatic Latin of his time and literal accuracy to the Hebrew and Greek so in some sense it's not the best meter to judge original compositions in Latin from the middle ages free from the latter constraint
>>25606525For me as a Polish speaker, bit and pit in English sound like byt and pyt in Polish. Meanwhile true hard short "i" only exists in Polish or Mediterranean languages (Spanish, Italian, Greek).>>25606768Having a native intuition for the concept of inflection is a game changer, you don't even have to think about it, unlike Americans who I've noticed tend to try and hard-memorize every single case for every single word like retards.
>tfw I simply say all vowels long and just modulate them by lengthIt's that easy>butdon't care
>>25607936numquam te amabunt Camenae
>>25607936simple as
>get laid off>study and read latin all day>two years go by>happy>get job>-10 hours per day>no mental energy to read latin>haven't read in two monthsFUCK this gay earth why couldn't my job latin
>>25598702English traditional pronunciation isn’t all that old if that’s what you’re referring to.
>>25601167Caesar wrote in Classical Latin and if the greatest of the gens Julii isn’t patrician enough for you I have no idea who could be.However, I have a soft spot for late latin features too, especially the resurgence of a lot of “archaisms” from old latin (which means they were probably present in colloquial speech the whole time).But also, having a favorite period or favorite features isn’t the same thing as a 21st century Englishman using old latin features that impede communication in classical latin just to be autistic.
>>25601935St. Augustine is deceptively approachable but the ideas are very abstract. I own that volume and de bello gallico and after finishing familia romana and the gospels I found DBG far more approachable.
>>25602673Oh yeah and GOSPELS GOSPELS GOSPELS GOSPELS please it’s just so helpful in establishing basic literacy and they’re so easy to read even monolingually (at least after you’ve read one). Don’t skip them.
>>25603347I don’t I just read and remember what I’ve read and how hard it felt and go by feel.
>>25602673Lemme hook you up amicehttps://www.lib.uchicago.edu/efts/PLD/Here’s a good readable/searchable database of every latin father’s texts from 200-1200 spanning 221 volumes in the physical edition.
>>25608043it's what I fear once NEETing time runs out
>>25608069>GOSPELS GOSPELS GOSPELS GOSPELSDo you recommend the Loeb volume for the gospels or what other cheap and good quality options do I have?
>>25608386No. Loeb for the Bible is odd and due to the number of volumes more expensive ultimately than just getting a proper latin bible. Also, since you already have a backing in theology, I think the English parallel will hurt your growth since it can be really distracting. They’re possibly the easiest full book-length text you can read in Latin, so you ought to just take the plunge IMO.The bilingual bible I personally own and really like is the one from Baronius Press. However, there’s a pretty high quality monolingual republication of the Clementine I also really like. Lastly, the critical edition of the nova vulgata novum testamentum is really good too and I’ve read this one in its entirety. Picrel. German Bible Society also puts out a full monolingual critical edition of the stuttgart vulgate in the same style.
>>25580197I'm a native Slavic speaker and I've been poking at it for a while. It's relatively easy if you have background in one or two living slavic langs.Most OCS texts are translations of the Gospels and Psalms. Codex Suprasliensis contains lives of saints, so a now rather unpopular type of medieval literature. Other stuff is practical texts for the church rites, sermons... In post-OCS, i.e. CS period (when the language is already a bit "deformed" in accordance with the diverging local pronunciation, depending on the region and scribal school), there's some curious texts, such as the treatise On Letters, Hexameron (translation from Greek), and others. Aside from the religious texts there are also historical chronicles. I don't have a very clear picture of it all, I must admit.OCS is of interest to Slavic philologists and historical linguists. If your sole goal is enjoment of the texts aesthetically or philosophically, there's not much for you to find here.
>>25607229Well, I didn’t say exclusively his Vulgate.
English has Anglish and thorn enthusiasts. Why can't my language have cool things? When will be the next relatinizing episode for the romance languages? When will we, Spaniards, unite for "facer" instead of "hacer"? I feel like social media and capitalism has made it impossible for language revitalizers to take over once more
>>25608686Although I do not endorse non-Catholic Churches and Ecclesial Communities, I wonder how the Spanish Episcopal ‘Church’ translates the 1662 Book of Common Prayer.
Can someone point me towards somewhere I can get ahold of Bald Man's familia romana recordings?
Can someone familiar with Latin do me a favour? Folio 70 of the Chronicon Mundi by Lucas Tudensis apparently contains an account of Toledo's jews opening the city gates for the muslims. I can't find an english pdf. Could anyone check the latin for me and confirm?
>>25580183Let Greece keep Homer, Rome her laurell’d dead;I’ll take my Shakespeare, Pope, and Dryden read.Why sweat o’er cases, genders, moods, and rules,To earn the dusty honours of the schools?Let pedants dig where buried empires lie;My English gives me wings enough to fly.One tongue, well-read, shall furnish all I needI’ll leave the roots, and cultivate the weed.
>>25609065Or. The precise citation is the above IB fol. 70, and that which it refers to is the Chronicon Mundi (opud Schottum, Hisp Ilust. Vol. Iv.). Thanks.
>>25609086>>25609065And, to make it easier, https://www.scribd.com/document/960288095/Chronicon-Mundi-Lucas-de-Tui But I believe there are others about, like Emma Falque Rey's 2003 edition but I can't find a copy of that. Any help appreciated.
>>25609065>>25609086>>25609127Give us a proper reference, you fucking retard.
>>25609257If by any chance is this onehttps://archive.org/details/de-tuy-lucas.-chronicon-mundi-ocr-1238-2003/page/304/mode/1upit says nothing about Jews, it's about a Christian king conquering Toledo.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Toledo_(1085) if I'm not mistaken.
>>25608686Se llama Castellano Antiguo y nada te impide que te le leas el Cantar de Mio Cid y que te pongas a «fablar» como el siglo décimo tercero.>"facer" instead of "hacer"Nunca, la gente habla como les enseña la puta que los parió, es imposible detener el cambio lingüístico, solo las lenguas muertas no cambian.>next relatinizing episode for the romance languages¿Relatinizar lo que ya es latino? Innecesario, pero puedes empezar por usar el imperfecto de subjuntivo en -ra (llegara, supiera etc) sólo con su significado original de pluscuamperfecto de indicativo, o las terminaciones latinas de los participios de futuro también con su significado original. Pero olvídate del futuro de subjuntivo y del condicional, los cuales no existían en latín.>I feel like social media and capitalism has made it impossible for language revitalizers to take over once more>once more¿Cómo puede volver a pasar algo que no ha ocurrido nunca? En cualquier caso el «interné» es lo único que posibilitaría que encuentres un número suficiente de personas dispuestas a larpear contigo.
>>25609065should be this episode, found the text on archive.comquick rough translation>The city of Toledo too, victress of many peoples, fell defeated to the Saracens through the betrayal of Jews, for she had been stronger and more rebellious[i.e than other cities which fell, I take from context]. For when Christians on Palm Sunday had gone to the church of Saint Leocadius[?] outside of the royal city for their reverence for such an occasion in order to hear the word of God, the Jews who had already signaled the betrayal to Saracens, closed the gates of the city to Christians and opened them to the Saracens and so the faithful people of Toledo found themselves defenseless outside of the city and were slaughtered.
>>25609320*Leocadia
>>25609279Unfortunately, I'm working backwards with the citations from the books themselves. History of the Conquest of Spain, Vol 1, page 298, states that the jews 'counselled immediate surrender' after the battle of Guadalete. Following that set of citations down leads to History of the Mohammadian Dynasties in Spain, Vol 1, note 23, 25 or 33, page.. 333, or 335 I think, for the next.
>>25609320Brilliant. Thank you - precisely what I was hunting. Cheers.
>>25609406np, forgot to post the link https://dn710101.ca.archive.org/0/items/de-tuy-lucas.-chronicon-mundi-ocr-1238-2003/De%20Tuy%2C%20Lucas.%20-%20Chronicon%20Mundi%20%5Bocr%5D%20%5B1238%5D%20%5B2003%5D.pdf
>>25609307>como pode volver a pasar algo que no ha ocurrido nunca?There were multiple occurrences of language revitalization, specially during the renassaince, what are you on? Almost every "omni" was once an erudite and "incorrect" at the time spelling against "oni." Just open any online dictionary and look the "Learned" versus "Inherited" section. "Benigno" and "Maligno" were once "benino" and "malino", but the monopolized intellectual elite at the time rectified it contrary to popular diction.
>>25609685>arcaizar la ortografía y hablar con afectación es revitalizar el lenguageImagina ser así de subnormal. Y de la parte más interesante, el sistema verbal, ni una palabra, ¿no? Imposible revitalizar algo que está vivo. Se podría revitalizar el latín, que está muerto, pero en cosa de una generación se convertiría en una lengua romance más, sujeta a cambio.¿Te vas a poner a distinguir todas las sibilantes del español antiguo, aunque no las hayas oído en tu vida, aunque no tengas ni puta idea de cómo sonaban en boca de españoles? Espero que lo hagas ya. ¿Distingues ya las bes y las uves, las elles y las i griegas cuando hablas, o esperas a que dé su visto bueno la «élite» cultural? ¿Necesitas la aprobación de Papá Estado, de Mamá RAE?Los cultismos no son más que préstamos lingüisticos. En italiano a menudo se usan los dos, el cultismo y el término tradicional, con significados ligeramente diferentes, como vizio y vezzo, y nadie habla de corregir nada. (Se podrían corregir, eso sí, los pocos errores etimológicos de nuestra ortografía.) Si quieres una lengua que no cambie usa el latín. Porque éste es el principal y quizás único punto por el que merezca la pena esforzarse en usar, no sólo en leer, una lengua clásica, que no cambia. Que me fusilen antes que renunciar a mi lengua materna y viva. Para desquitarme de los horrores de la Aedad, que fuge ínvida (¿lo has pillado?) ya tengo mis latinajos.
>>25610042me encanta ver a otro fellow argie en /clg/. Que lengua clásica estas estudiando? Venis de Puan?
>>25610042Sorry for the terminology: revitalizing isn't what I want, but archaising (including diction.)leer < leger - this is what I'm talking about. I hate it with every cell of my body like every "leer" and "veer" is a spit on my face. Your mother language that you love so much has been mutilated again and again over the years and you do nothing to return it to its former glory. Yes, I do restore both orthography and phonolgy, including but not limited to greek sounds, like aspirated T and P and the vowel Y. I consider this to be the utmost pure diction possible and the greatest act of love that I can manifest for my language.-There is negative value in going forward if our tradition "evolves" by doing so.
>>25609685And by the way, maligno and benigno were never pronounced in Latin as they are pronounced now in Spanish. The Spanish pronunciation is completely made up, an orthographic artifact, a hypercorrection if you wish. What an incredible, successful revitalization.
>>25610091Latin is nothing but a bastardized version of Old Italic, which is a bastardized version of Indoeuropean, which was a bastardized version of some other language, maybe even a pidgin. There is no reason to stop at any specific point in time.And all your reconstructed pronunciations are probably wrong anyway.
>>25610118I am able to recognize patterns still.benevolente is inflection of benevoler which is compound of bene + voler. Therefore the verb "voler" must exist.Even without historical study you can go pretty far in reconstructing a language simply by looking at its compounds. Furthermore, Latin is massively well documented and has a massive litterary corpus so let's not pretend that mimmicking Latin is as bad as Proto-Indo-European, specially when we can clearly see the small erosions like leer < leger that all trace back to Latin
>>25610101Hypercorrections are fine
>>25610146>benevolente is inflection of benevoleralready wrong
>>25610151>let's revitalize lang>how?>by making shit up ofc
>>25610163Terminology again? Or is it because it is a learnt borrow? You must be able to decompose words otherwise your language isn't fully productive>>25610167Hypercorrecting isn't the same as making shit up
>>256101891. look it up in a dictionary2. hypercorrection = mistake = making shit up (see point 1)>tired of speakers making new shit up? you should try to archaize the language by making new shit up that sounds old
>>25610146Volente is from Latin velle (participle: volens), which is already irregular in Latin, so your deduction is invalid in this particular case.
>>25610218>I call that d*scriptivist faggotry>>25610220>XYZ was already irregular in LatinBitch, didn't I tell you hypercorrecting is fine?
>>25610218>tired of speakers making new shit up? you should try to archaize the language by making new shit up that sounds oldWhen the Romans did this they invented Late Latin which is the peak of the language so it’s a good thing.
>>25610189>Terminology again? Or is it because it is a learnt borrow? You must be able to decompose words otherwise your language isn't fully productiveMe when I invent rules that have never applied anywhere ever to any human population because I use my hobbies as a substitute for religion and treat my opinions as dogma.
>>25610237No they aren't. Being wrong is wrong.
>>25610272cmon, man, you can't just look at an english word like "conduct", notice how " con" is inseparable from "duct" and pretend it's okay because lAnGUaGe iS a lIVinG thing! Where there's "conduct" there must be both "con" and "duct."
>>25610253Could you provide a few examples?>inb4 it wad real in my head
>>25610290not OP, but both essere (sum) and volere (volo) are Late Latin
>>25610289>cmon, man, you can't just look at an english word like "tsunami", notice how " tsu" is inseparable from "nami" and pretend it's okay because lAnGUaGe iS a lIVinG thing! Where there's "tsunami" there must be both "津" and "波"
>>25610282That is not an hypercorrection, that's a regularization.
>>25610310meant for >>25610301
>>25610303fine if you ask me; that's what you get for loaning words. If I can do 3=1+1+1=2+1=4-1=1+1+1+1-1 why wouldn't I do something similar to words?
>>25610317>If I can do 3=1+1+1=2+1=4-1=1+1+1+1-1 why wouldn't I do something similar to words?Holy shit, are you serious? Are we going all Logical Positivism again, are we doing the Wiener Kreiss skit again? Maybe read some Wittgenstein for a while and you'll see why
>>25610303yes a single extremely rare borrowing from a foreign language is the same as the root of your entire languageI think he should have stopped arguing with you sooner you aren't in good faith
>>25609002I think you can download them from the (Reddit) Latin Discord. There should be an invite link on the r/latin Reddit board.
>>25610290If you’re asking for like, specific works, that’s really a matter of preference and also bizarre you’d need me to list authors for you. You can read Latin can’t you?If you’re asking for like, proof that Late Latin had archaizing tendencies, i mean, that’s well attested and everyone who knows anything knows that. I’m not gonna take the time to google some papers to prove something beyond debate to someone who probably can’t read Latin. It’s like asking for a source that the USA nuked Japan.
Neat>Cambridge University Press 978-1-107-13225-2 — Early and Late Latin | Edited by J. N. Adams , Nigel Vincent | Excerpt
>>25608052Nope, I meant Polish.But while English is surely the hardest case to make for the traditional pronunciations, I do actually think it's the only one that makes sense for the English speaking peoples to use.
>>25610702Isn't Polish traditional pronunciation the same as the one used in much of central europe? Or is it something different.
A lot of people into grammar and linguistics probably just have asperger's but never learned that others don't think like they do. They likely lack the theory of mind to realize that their own brain isn't actually like a perfectly rational computer.
Something that occurred to me is how bizarrely similar classical and intentionally difficult to read non-classical writing is to legalese in English. Specifically the abundance of embedded clauses. What I think makes the vulgate vulgar is that it makes dependencies easy to track either by placing them close to one another, with fewer and shorter embedded clauses (often via greater parataxis in the vulgate specifically) and with more prepositions and other markers.What I found especially confusing when I first finished familia romana was how easy supposedly forbidding topics were from one neo-latin author, while another neo-latin (or classical) author talking about something supposedly simple would be impenetrable, and now I realize that the cause of my woes was just that the golden age ideal was to write everything like an intentionally dense contract.
>>25610535Can you read English? That isn't what I asked for.>the USA nuked Japansource?
>>25580183Nice
>>25608059Caesar was a bald faggot.Wait, that sounds familiar...
It's nice to study a dead lang. You can make shit up all the time and there are no native speakers to call you out on your bullshit.
>>25610572>the format of that citationAre you people being retarted on purpose or are you really like this?
O me miserum. Cur, dii immortales, rogo, modo postquam lavi me, sensus advenit cacandi? Tanta erat tempestas ut meum balneum deletae sint. Unde venisti, O diabole! Exspectavisti donec lavi mittere me ad balneum. Utinam in infero mittereris. Cum appropinquas meum interulum, quid faciam? Cum sentio equites inferi advenientes, quid sperem, nisi finem omnia? Ut deus vult, sunt qui stercora phantasmatum dantur. Utinam essem eos!
>>25611357>Utinam essem eos!Vin stercus fieri?
>>25611357barbare o barbare quod neolatini bidet appellant usui tibi erit quandocumque lubeat cacaturo
>>25610572yeah spoken latin was very different even in the pre-imperial period. the best proof is the use of ille being used to mean "the" in all current latin languages
>>25611337I just copy pasted the header cause I figured no one here would give a shit and I didn’t feel like writing a bluebook or chicago compliant citation for a fucking 4chan post
>>25601653>desertust
>>25611852GRRRRRRRRRRHERE YOU GO, YOUR MAJESTY
Does anybody have any of these books? They're not on AA or z-lib.>https://www.timothyalee.com/en-GB/isbn/978-1-83651-191-5
>>25611813>writes the isbn>writes "excerpt">doesn't write the fucking page number
>early and late latin adams page xxxwow that was hard
>>25611812>spoken latin from 200BC was the same as spoken latin from 400ADcf. itinerarium egeriae
>>25611812>ille being used to mean "the" in all current latin languagesDoes that mean Sardinian isn't a romance language?
>>25611947If you copy and paste the header the excerpt will come up, and it’s 10 pages long. This reeks of B.A. larp.
>>25611947Here’s the link.https://assets.cambridge.org/97811071/32252/excerpt/9781107132252_excerpt.pdfAlso, I’m not certain which century you were born in, but you can do this thing on your computer with CTRL + F where you can just search the words directly so maybe that will help you out next time if you only have access to the full text.
>>25612005>eary and late latin adams p. xxx6 fucking words
>>25612016>all pdfs from shadow libs are pure text, scans with shitty ocr don't exist
>>25612027How’s the job hunt going?
>>25612017>CTRL + F “submerged”1 word>>25612027Also that’s wholly irrelevant because the text I posted was searchable.
>>25612044>Also that’s wholly irrelevant because the text I posted was searchable.you posted a picjust post the page number instead of the isbn, most people would download the entire book instead of reading a fragment from the publisher's site like a cuck
>>25612060>he has nothing better to do than to defend academic conventions on a mongolian basket weaving forum while not posting on-topicNigger maybe try reading a little latin nigger then maybe you’ll get better at it nigger then maybe stop posting here and read some scholarship nigger.
>>25612071>tries to cite to look like an academic>doesn't know how or why>doesn't say thank you when someone teaches him(you)re welcome btw
>>25612120B8
>>25612071>4 N-WordsSomeone's having a melty.
>>25611997È il latrino a venire dal sardo, COGLIONE.
chapter XLIV of Roma Aeterna is really hard, much harder than any before it and it sucks since it's the most interesting Livy chapter so far, but Livy is just excruciating to readwhat's funny is that Eutropius comes in right after all of the Livy chapters which is pretty funny
>>25612137latrunculi mastrucati if u ask me
>>25612210scurra pultiphagonide, mula mariana togata
>>25605100idgi
>>25612644>>25612644
