Imagine a scenario straight out of a Philip K. Dick novel,what if everyone in the world except for me has been replaced by androids? Or what if I am the only conscious being with an actual brain and a sense of self, while everyone else is merely a philosophical zombie programmed to produce specific reactions to specific stimuli?In that case, how could I ever tell whether other people are just philosophical zombies or genuine, conscious beings?
>>43130135How to identify a hylic/replicant/npc/p-zombie without alerting the horde:>"Man! I'm so hungry! How'd you feel if you skipped breakfast this morning?"They are incapable of retrospect or prospect. The NPC/Hylic/Replicant/P-Zombie will always answer along the lines of:"But I did! But I DID have breakfast this morning!"Quietly mark that one with an X in your little black book and map out all of the ones nearby.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77znmAxSvkw
>>43130135There are WAY more of them than you think.
>>43130135you cant aint that the whole point. i for one can assure you i'm a hylic npc but thats just me
>>43130135Ask them the vertiginous question. If their response is something like “The question is meaningless. If you were someone else, you wouldn’t be you”, they aren’t sentient.
>>43130198>"Me own son! Me own son! A Hylic NPC!">*weeping father noises*o_o
>>43130198there's no meaningful way of answering that other than "The question is meaningless. If you were someone else, you wouldn’t be you" tho
Here's a good NPC test.Most NPC's are not able to impose objectives on their own and bring them to a conclusion, they need an input source of thought to think for them in order for them to do anything.>Better an egg today than a hen tomorrow. Don't you agree?If they are susceptible they will accept the obvious flaw due to social acceptance of broader trends, even if directly illogical. They accept that hens make eggs, and don't care. Someone they trust says something "smart" they will follow.>>43130151>"Man! I'm so hungry! How'd you feel if you skipped breakfast this morning?"I usually don't eat breakfast, so I'd likely feel nothing. If I did and missed out on it though I would likely feel tired and sluggish, perhaps a tad frustrated.>>43130198>vertiginous questionIt's quite an easy question to solve."why am I me?"Consider the antithesis. I am me, because I am not you. Our carnal bodies separate the unification of our thoughts and minds. The objective is separate from the observer. We are two distinctive bodies.
>>43130198In terms of philosophy its same as all modern philosophy: sophistry. In terms of taking the question at face value, it is again meaningless because its not something you can meaningfully approach intellectually. It is something you either know or you don't, and that knowledge can't necessarily be transmitted to others.
>>43130135That's the really funny part, most of the population are. Probably 90%+
>>43130135Welcome to your first narcissistic delusional break, anon. I hope you like it.
The biggest way to determine whether someone is an NPC is if they get upset over their ideology being questioned. This is literally a sign that their programming is breaking.
>>43130135>In that case, how could I ever tell whether other people are just philosophical zombies or genuine, conscious beings?Why would you need to, if the external expression is THAT perfect?You might say some sort of certainty for your own internal self, but two things: you dont have that now yet you (hopefully) have relationships so certainty isnt a requirement for personal connection, and two the only difference would be your internal belief - which you can just change on your own decision no what the external reality is because the only thing changing is your internal reality.It's like the irrelevancy of the question of free will.If you have free will, it's how you've been acting all along, and if you dont have free will - it's how you've been acting all along.
>>43130135The whole point of a p-zombie is that it is externally indistinguishable from a being with a mind.>>43130198Yo dude, what if A was not-A? Wouldn't that be crazy? Veritginous question is only kinda meaningful in particular contexts
>>43130295>"why am I me?"That is not the vertiginous question. the question is why am I me INSTEAD OF ANYONE ELSE?That is the part the logically must be concluded with selfhood is not fungible.
>>43130747I am by definition
>>43130928>still doesnt understand the questionWhy are you aware of that particular situation, and not aware of other particular situations?
>>43130135I can absolutely verify that for you.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibz-gPkTMDM&ra=m
>>43130977I don't believe you understand my answer.I cannot be anyone else. Again this is very easy to define and the answer is the exact same.>The objective is separate from the observer. We are two distinctive bodies.I cannot be you because I am a separate being. We do not share memories, we do not share a body, we do not share the same sensory ability. Each and every person is genetically distinctive from one another.>TLDR I exist independently from you. Therefore I am not you. You are separate from me. If you had my body, mind, memories and and emotions and existed as I do now in wholeness as myself then yes. You would be me. But you are not, you are separated from me by body, soul, mind and place.
>>43131127>I cannot be you because I am a separate being.Yes. Self is not fungible. This is why the vertiginous question completely removes monism and solipsism as viable answers.
>>43130135You can tell them basically anything and they just reset to 0 afterwards. That's how you know.
>>43131127I agree, but find it helps to try and understand others views even if I find them incorrect. I find it fun to simulate arguments within myself to better my ideological self. To play devils advocate>monismtwo beings can be made of the same matter an exist in a single reality. If I cook 2 cookies out of the same batter they are different cookies, despite both being made in the same way and presented with the same circumstances. One cookie might be lopsided, the other small another perfectly equal in every way. However as long as they are separated by matter, there are two. We are both humans that exist in the physical plane we call reality. We share a biology and a planet in common, different yet similar. If you go far enough back in history all things carry the same origin. All of one nature in material existence. >solipsismTo an individual observer, the entirety existence hinges upon their observation. Without it you loose that stream of consciousness obviously the universe doesn't end for everyone else when you die. But the observer remains no longer tethered to mortality which is to say we loose access to them and they loose access to us. If derived of all senses, the world would become meaningless. Consciousness on a individual level is the experience of self when observing. With nothing to observe it must generate rather than absorb, it will eventually be left with nothing. Similar degradation can be found in late stage memory based diseases, where the brain can no longer properly store information.
>>43131552So then answer the vertiginous question.
>>43131568>why am I me INSTEAD OF ANYONE ELSE?An answer formatted from the perspective of both parties.>monismI am myself by order of physical separation, two twins can both come from the same mother. We are both made of the same material and the universe comes back to one origin. We are one in material, but not in personage.>solipsismI perceive myself as existent and can observe you are separate from me. My mind has separated us by merit of deduction. I cannot be you because I observe the world as me. I don't see your perspective which separates us from one another.Both options are right in some ways and wrong in others. I disagree with solipsism because the object isn't the observer. The world exists with or without you. I also disagree with monism because the origin of things does not make them inherently equal.
>>43131722>We are one in material, but not in personage.That would indicate that awareness is not one, and separation is a fact of reality. So monism no longer true.>and can observe you are separate from me.Well that's just self admitting solipsism is wrong.
>>43133115> awareness is not one"Existence monism posits that, strictly speaking, there exists only a single thing, the universe, which can only be artificially and arbitrarily divided into many things"Humans are of one species on one planet who's matter came from one origin. It's easy enough to say humans are divided yes, but are connected by biology, physics and matter. There will always be one unifying factor between two forces.>that's just self admitting solipsism is wrong."Solipsism is the philosophical position that only one's own mind is certain to exist. It holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind, including the external world and other minds, is uncertain and cannot be conclusively known."How does this break the rules? not know what your thinking at all times is uncertainty I can never conclusively know you entirely because my observation will always be relatively biased.
>>43130135>Or what if I am the only conscious beingHow can you be sure you are conscious?
>>43133244>Existence monismWe are talking about awareness and to pretend people dont say shit like "I am you" is to pretend to be retarded.>the philosophical position that only one's own mind is certain to exist>can observe youRight there, moron.
>>43133491Define one point of monism that states all consciousnesses are united. The people your thinking are wrong are those who believe in a universal mind.>Right there, moronread the rest of the answer tard.>I cannot be you because I observe the world as me. I don't see your perspective which separates us from one another.I can 100% guarantee my mind is certain in existence. Knowing whether you exist (as an NPC or not) is my questioning if you actually exist entirely because I cannot see inside your head I can not observe you entirely. I can observe myself, so I can with 100% certainty say I am me.
>>43130135disrupt their auto pilot by doing unexpected stuff and see their reaction. Most people are basically zombies but it's not a permanent condition, some can grow out of it
Ask a question about something, and their opinion on it. Ask it in a way that implies you want them to agree/answer a specific way. Then wait and ask it again, in the opposite way. See if they give the same answer. Can be anything. "(Random thing) are gay and dumb, aren't they?" Or "x movie coming out really has me exited, are you going to watch it?" A lot of people just say whatever
>>43134438>The people your thinking are wrongThose are the people that push monism. You are either very stupid or pretending to be retarded.The monism you are talking about has no issue with the vertiginous question because it very explicitly understands that we are not one mind, but individuals.>read the rest of the answerIt was irrelevant when you categorically reject solipsism in the first part as a defense of solipsism, idiot.
well, wouldnt you wanna know clanker. wouldnt you wanna know.
>>43130151Then they offer you food and you say "I'm not hungry."
>>43130198Sounds like you just dont like someone and asked them a ridiculous hypothetical question. I notice you didn't dare to reveal what that questions was you snake.
>>43136875That is definitely not the plot of a Philip K. Dick novel.Novels of Dostoevsky or Camus would be much better examples.Using inappropriate examples, parroting the other person's words, and weaponizing them to attack others just proves that you're clearly an NPC rather than a conscious human being.
>>43130135I think there are varying levels of robustness with a conscious experience. A less robust conscience will identify themselves as only their body and be completely bound to and driven by material and worldly things. You get a good gut sense for these people after a while. I have tried having conversations with people like this about more esoteric type things like what they think about conscience and you know, how are you capable of generating images or sounds in your mind without them existing for others to perceive with you? They just shut right off, and not even in a shocked or taken aback way. They just don’t care at all. I’ll prod a little more for engagement.. “Think about it man. You know it’s there in your mind. You can see it and hear it!” There’s just a threshold of reasoning and contemplation there that they cannot pass. It really is so insanely interesting.
>>43130135You have to be a zombie not to know the answer.We are bombarded and surrounded by propaganda. You simply find a topic someone is talking about, politics, war or something else and find out if they're repeating what is easily visible propaganda or not.It's time consuming to an extent, which is why you don't do it for everyone. The only people you should care about that deeply is the woman you'll marry, your children to keep them human and people you're considering relying upon. Nobody else really matters or makes an impact on you.
>>43143425There are plenty of materialists who can simply answer that by the fact that all imagined concepts take heavy inspiration from and combine elements from physical experimental reality. Consciousness is an ill-defined term, and could mean different things to different people.
>>43130135See, niggas always fantasize about being the main character. What if you're the only android in a world of actual humans? It's literally what's happening. Dumb schizo in world a world of sane people.
>>43143841And I would respond by saying the act of synthesizing sensory information in your “mind’s eye” is a phenomena in and of itself, regardless of what shapes or influences it. It is an essential function of the conscious experience. Your answer addresses the nature of imagination, not the “how” imagination is possible.
>>43143425Lack of care is not lack of ability.I hear this kind of "they just shut down" thing so often but have NEVER experienced it.I think the problem is in your engagement.Like a bad teacher saying kids dont want to learn.
>>43143865If you wish to be anything less than the main character of the world, you are a mentally a slave. Any fully whole human being must, at least in their own desires, strive to be the protagonist of their life.
>>43143976>t. i have never and will never have kids
>>43144231I hope this comment means that parents should make their child the center of their world.If you’re saying having a child means giving up on all your dreams and ambitions, that's such a complete loser mentality that it’s honestly just sad.
>>43139894>I notice you didn't dare to reveal what that questions was you snake.It’s the question of why I experience being this person and not someone else. You can always just google it if you don’t know what something is.
>>43130151It's fascinating to see this sort of "how to spot NPCs" stuff being mindlessly parroted by npcs. Does it make them feel more like real people?
>>43144251The comment meant you have exposed yourself as someone who has no kids and never will.
>>43144312Posting the same comment over and over makes you seem exactly like a bot.Or maybe it's just autism, repeating the same words is one of the primary symptoms of autism.
try to get them to express a genuinely novel or socially unsanctioned idea without vagueness
>>43143936>>43143936They don’t actually shut off like robots. They just can’t access that area of abstract thinking. The passion is there with other topics like sports and food and money yada yada yada, but the personality itself just fizzles out when I ask this question. There is no actual genuine interest or “bite”. I know all I have to offer here is anecdotal but it happens almost every time. The ability could very well be there, but the ability to ponder it and question how it’s possible is not. The closest I got is an older woman who chuckled and said “Huh.. I don’t know!! That’s pretty weird!”
>>43130135How can we tell that you aren’t one?
>>43145475>the personality itself just fizzles out when I ask this question.Again - never seen this happen.I really think these people just see you coming a mile away and shut down, like the reaction to a street preacher.I am guessing you very much like to talk about the topics, and arent so much truly interested in other people's minds.
>>43130135They are
>>43146064what a strange thing to say, i wonder what they meant by that
>>43130135we all have self
see if they understand sarcasm.dead give away.
>>43130135You can't. You also can't confirm whether the concept of a philosophical zombie is even valid. What does a "genuine, conscious being" even mean? Under certain circumstances, I do not even dream when I sleep. When I am unconscious and my subjective sense of self is not engaged in the act of dreaming, do I become a philosophical zombie? Is a person who has lost many of the functions of their brain that we associate with consciousness (speech or other forms of meaningful articulation, independent movement, goal-directed behavior, reasoning, etc) yet reacts to a painful stimulus consistent with the reactions of other, unimpaired people a philosophical zombie? What are the implications of a person being a philosophical zombie rather than possessing a "genuine, true" consciousness? The concept is meaningless and the distinction can only be used to dehumanize other people under the unproveable belief that they are a philosophical zombie and thus of less value. It's usually used as a cudgel against someone because they disagree with the accuser on some issue, or as a way to elevate the accuser above another person: "I am real, you are not."The way I see it, the concept isn't real, holds no value, and the hypothetical moral value between an observation of a reaction to pain with internal experience and an observation of a reaction to pain without internal experience is equal. Eliciting a pain response in a living entity is a bad thing.
>>43130295If you ask random people on the street your retarded autistic questions while they're busy then yeah no shit they won't give you a well thought out answer. If my coworkers ask me about shit I don't care about like football or beer or women or whatever, and I give them a shitty answer like "yeah haha..." that doesn't mean I'm subhuman, I just don't give a fuck about the topic.
>>43130135this person nailed it:>>43130151also start mapping the multiverse through superAI residue:Luke I am your Father (Pneumatic) vs No, I am your Father (Hylic)>There are WAY more of them than you think.Somewhere between 20,000-50,000 real Players remaining
>>43148673You consume anime, you're the NPC here
>>43148684it's a video's game glowiecan't even ragebait correctly /sigh
