OH BOY HERE WE GO AGAIN
>>750635182In the roots birdlore enjoyer #3. Best of luck to ya.
People complain about this, but not about Iron Keep.
>>750635182I remember beating 1.0 on PC to see how hard it really wasIt's not fucking hard unless you count the glitch of 4x damage to durability on PC
>>750635360That's because all the columns in Iron Keep specifically designed to provide cover from archer fire make it infinitely less annoying than slogging through a mostly wide open area dodging projectiles that hone in on you
>>750635182Woweee can’t wait to press R1 followed by circle occasionally!
>>750635360Anyone complaining about any area in this game just makes you sound like a baby
>>750635182It’s not that bad.>>750635431The archers aren’t the problem. It’s the 20 katana dudes that come sprinting at you from 20 miles away.
>>750635360because enemies in iron keep dont swarm you, like, you dont fight more then two knights at the same time unless you try to run past all of them
>>750635626Because it is
>>750635182shrine of amana is pretty difficult, but it doesn't last very long and can be safely approached with various ranged options. Binoculars and throwing knives if you're particularly unranged.
>>750635571Just use the door as chokepoint. Shrine doesn't really have anything like that.
>>750635360Iron keep is pretty good and has a great openness to it offering branching paths at every junction, first after the entrance door, with the ballistae breaking a wall puzzle, then the choice between fighting the smelter demon or disabling the fire to reach the ladder up and finally the choice between going through the trap doors/turtle hallway or jumping into Belfry Sol to end up in the large spiraling staircase room.In contrast of the shrine which offer no possible variation on how to approach the level design beside following the straight path and its encounters, at least
>>750635816That's not true. You can tackle different encounters. Like going at the spell casters or dealing with ogre.
>>750635360They're both top tier levels
>>750635182>Shrine of CINEMAAlso known as "Liurnia but good"
What makes DS2 great is the level of open ended chaos and quick thinking improvisation.
>>750636069DaS2 is terrible.
>>750635182Literally one of the coolest most unique levels from ever made Oh no theirs better strategies than just getting into 1v1 roll duels repeat 100x times You can use bows, miracles to boost your magic resistance, torch to see the way, magic shields, terrain to blow onslaught of projecitles Playing bb right now and fuck even with something as simple as terrain enemies hurt boxes are so goddammm big and phase though walls it's pointless
>>750636069I like DS2, but I absolutely do not like the changed enemy placement in iron keep for SotFS. The area was fine before hand there was no need to add twice the amount of alonne knights and make them all rush you from the other side of the map when you walk past certain triggers. I just really don't get what the point of the change was.
>>750636234>I just really don't get what the point of the change was.To make people hate DS2 even more.
>>750636234You fight more Allone knights together in vanilla.
I hated ds2 for years, ds1 best kind of a guy even above bb/ds3. Pretty generic for mid 2010s but my friend kept shilling me it and I would mock him.Too many enemiesIts kind of janky Adp But I listened anactually just played it all the way though and it clicked.Its easily one of the better souls games with so many well crafted areas not even counting dlc, with dlc ds2 easily has the best selection of levels.Did i evolve into a ds2 fan boy? No actually im now a demon souls fan boy when it became playable on emulators and i actually got to play that, But ds2 is like a top 3
Remember, DS2 isn't allowed to have like 3 guys in a level without this fanbase complaining but any other souls game can just throw enemies at you and if you complain well then ughh just git gud lol
>>750636441
>>750636556Cope. n 10 years people will still arguing about ds2, and it will still be one of the better games.
>>750636441DS2 feels like a successor to Demons Souls
SotFS is like the Master Quest version, and new enemy placements in NG+ are nice. Keeps you on your toes.
>>750636704I always felt it was more of a successor to King’s Field (King’s Field 4 in particular) what with all the trates they share and the references and homages to King’s Field you see in the game.
>>750636726Raising an areas ng cycle on the fly with its new drops and it actually changing things was genius.No idea why it wasn't brought forward to all games going forward.
the thing I liked most about DS2 was it felt more like an 'explore and fight what you find' game. DS1 and DS3 ultimately tried it too but DS1 falls off after the gargoyle boss fight imo especially around Depths and Blighttown, it felt like the devs quickly ran out of ideas. DS3 there was little reason to diverge off the standard pathDS2 did it best with the variety of weaposn, builds and how fast you levelled and how easy titanite was to get, made it fairly easy to try new shit
DS2 is so addicting. There's always that area you need to go explore, a boss to kill, 5 more level ups to try this new weapon i got, etc.
>>750637301I remember a complaint for ds2 years ago was their was too much resources.Ohhh no the horror, the player gets to use more than 1 weapon Haven't heard that one in a while, probably because it actually does suck to only get like 1 blood rock in bloodborne
>>750635182Just use a crossbow/bow nigga
>>750636174>>750636234>t. didn't adapt and think of a strategy
You're one ugly motherfucker
Protip, the unique 2HR2 of the curved dragon sword can destroy these obelisks in one hit. Attacking them normally takes a few hits and you'll still summon the dude inside.
Boom
NG+30 CLEARED
Proofs.
DS2 is based
>>750635360Basically Amana was totally fucked at launch and it got nerfed into oblivion but low IQ retards (the sort that whine about DS2) just mimic complaints they heard elsewhere without understanding the context and so now we have people whining about a zone where the most dangerous thing is walking into deep water by accident
Methinks I'll go full hexer in NG+31.
>>750635785Stop carrying around so much souls bro
>>750635571>The archers aren’t the problem. It’s the 20 katana dudes that come sprinting at you from 20 miles away.SotFS made it (probably unintentionally) that when you cross a threshold early in the keep, every single enemy inside aggros on you and those who can path to you will immediately do so.Understanding this, you can slow your approach and clear the earlier ones out before later ones catch up to turn it into a gankfest, and its very manageable.Don't get me wrong, it's shit (like most SotFS changes) and probably bugged and anyone defending it is a faggot but it's 100% manageable.
>>750635182One of the best souls levels ever
I'm like 99% sure vanilla ds2 was way harder than sotfs, but it seems like everyone else thinks it's the other way around? I dunno, I haven't played it since sotfs came out so it's been a long time, but I remember actually putting the game down for a while and went back to DS1 when it first released because I was getting filtered hard.
Yep, it's game time.
>>750642261And that's a problem, why? What is even Vanilla if the enemies aren't rushing at you
>>750643139hello huge faggot
>>750642463Vanilla has less enemies but is overall gankier. Scholar has more enemies but if you take your time the fights are a lot more fair. Scholar being harder is because people rush through the areas and get mobbed by a dozen guys.
>>750642323aesthetically, yes. Gameplay wise, it's the single worst area in any souls game, period.
>>750635360Because Iron Keep was completely different on launch and a lot of entrenched opinions on things in Dark Souls 2 are from the original version. Including Shrine of Amana as a whole meme, so, naturally. Both are pretty good areas in either version anyway. Shrine of Amana is probably among the best levels for me of any Soulslike.
>>750636441My view is that it's always a question of how much time someone actually puts into the games/whether they engage with them beyond the surface level.DS2 has plenty of flaws and, on a surface level, yeah it seems clearly inferior. I still always return to 2 over 1 and 3 because the weapons, movesets, spells, items, bosses (even acknowledging the generic or simple ones) and DLC are all better. DS2 is a content packed game even if a fair amount of it is simple and/or jank.
>Straight line level>FOUR bonfires>But it's good because you can use a bow to cheese everything
>>750643268I'm talking about the gameplay. Sorry to hear about your terrible taste, but please keep it to yourself.
>>750642463From what I remember some areas are harder and some are easier. The one constant is that SotFS is always gayer and more retarded.
>>750643607Straight line levels can be fine. Bonfires are overused but that's true of the rest of DS2 and every Souls since too. It's nothing groundbreaking but personally I think it layers together a great atmosphere and appearance (especially for DS2, ESPECIALLY for launch DS2, such an ugly fucking game) and a bunch of simple elements into a memorable gauntlet. The singing, the submerged layout with pits, casters, etc. You don't have to go at it with a bow. There are other options, you just have to actually be good if you want to do it in melee. Especially after they cut down the tracking on the casters in the first patch there's nothing to bitch about anymore and it's way more doable as melee post-patch.
>>750643607>you can "cheese" a ranged section by using ranged weaponsThat's like saying you can cheese an FPS by using guns.
>>750636234I was divided on it when I played but I actually end up liking it. It makes it a memorable combat gauntlet against Samurai Knights honestly. If you can't kill them quickly enough it sucks, but that's the point.I think of it as basically the old door in Lost Bastille. In SotFS it doesn't work the same and it's double blocked or whatever, but holy shit was it one of the most memorable sections of launch DS2. Almost everyone had a story about opening that door and being unprepared for gangbang train that triggers. I feel like they transplanted that to the Iron Keep and I dig it, it works as a later game check and fits with their whole deal as crazy Samurai man. It really does feel like busting down the doors to some nutso Kurosawa movie where you've gotta cut down a hundred samurai.
>>750643873I don't think DS2 overuses bonfires much, it even has some levels where bonfires are brutally low. The wharf comes to mind.
>>750644410The Wharf is one of the rare levels designed in a pretty overt DeS fashion with a singular bonfire and shortcuts to unlock. It's also a really short level if you know where to go, most of it's totally optional extra space compared to the progression path. Which is dope. A few levels do decent work on this like Forest of Fallen Giants, but even it has an extra couple of bonfires. Lost Bastille is a nightmare of unnecessary bonfires, and Shaded Woods + the whole path through Tseldora is extremely weird in placement. Lots of those placements were changed later in development I believe? Stuff like the bonfire directly before the Wharf are stuff I won't count towards "too many" since that one's just fundamentally pointless and not a big deal, just weird, but there are a few others like that from the awkward development I don't care for.
>>750637942B-but im expect to fight the enemies? How am i supposed to boss rush if i have to actually play the game?
>>750635360They are both bad
>>750644771>Lost Bastille is a nightmare of unnecessary bonfiresHuh? Its>2 bonefires at two of the different entrances>a bonfire at the blacksmith>a bonfire after the midway boss>a optional bonefire at the vendor (which is more about unlocking the vendor than the bonfire itself)>a bonefire at the level transition (sinners rise)None of those are egregious, and if youre just playing through the level normally youll most likely just hit 3 at whatever entrance you choose, after the sentinels, and before sinners rise. Whats the problem exactly?
>>750641601>NG+30 CLEAREDi kneel
>>750646218brother if you don't understand how 6 bonfires is excessive and how bad a bonfire sinner's rise's even is I dunno what to tell youIt could have half the count easily, you don't actually need one from the alternate entrance, after the midway boss, at the vendor or at sinner's rise. Cutting all of them with the level design as is would be sparse but if you kept just one of the latter bastille bonfires it would be fine. Especially if the vendor actually moved to Majula, but also especially if they didn't design his room like psychopaths, and also also especially if you just included a kickdown ladder somewhere as a shortcut tons of Lost Bastille could rely on the Blacksmith bonfire.
>>7506474862 of those are optional/unlockable. Many times on the 1st playthrough you aren't gonna know the barrel trick which means getting the Bastille key which is locked behind the gargoyle's fight. Straid's requires a resource spend is is just a convenience tool to get back to Straid and offers nothing for making the level easier.When doing a normal route through the level, you interact with 2 bonfires in Lost Bastille proper and then the 1 at Sinner's rise. So yeah, I don't see what the issue is as far as level design goes. They certainly could have reduced bonfire count by having the blacksmith and Straid move to Majula, but it doesn't actually impact the level design.
>>750647486>you don't actually need one from the alternate entranceYou just beat a boss. Yes you do.
>>750647486>brother if you don't understand how 6 bonfires is excessiveThis reads more like>If you only present the number with no context it sounds bad don't look into where those bonfires are, how the level is structured, or apply any kind of analysis whatsoever
>>750635182>played this blind>died once to the wide swipe pushing me in a hole halfway through>the fight literally checkpoints for you>didnt die again and never died to it sinceAre people really that bad?
>>750649482Wrong boss, level, and game anon.
>>750635182well at least you aren't posting about gachashit
>>750649110No you don't. I don't care if you beat Pursuer and warped to the area. You don't actually need one.>>750648670It does impact the level design. It's quite a difference to spawn at Sinner's Rise as opposed to having to deal with crossing the bridge or going through anything. When doing a normal route through Bastille you explore, if it's your first playthrough doubly so, it's silly to think you'll just miss everything on the first playthrough when you have to explore to figure out where anything is at all. Likewise you just don't need one after every boss, period. It's a bad design staple that shoestrings broader level design across the series and exacerbated by boss fights becoming so much unto themselves rather than a part of a whole challenge.To look back at DS1, Pinwheel into TotG is great. You don't get a bonfire there. If you were a little weasel and skipped your way down, you know returning to the top is a huge pain in the ass. Press forward into literal darkness or go agonizingly back or homeward bone? Great choice to have to make. DS2 lost a lot of these choices to begin with with warp-centric traversal, but there's ample room for it within levels at least even if they want more of the DeS archstone world setup going on.
>>750636441DS2's dlc 1 & dlc 2 # have some of my fav level design in gaming for a bit over a decade.
>>750635182>OH BOY HERE WE GO AGAINThat's my reaction to booting up DS2 just in general
>>750650252>When doing a normal route through Bastille you explore, if it's your first playthrough doubly so, it's silly to think you'll just miss everything on the first playthrough when you have to explore to figure out where anything is at all.Yeah there's nothing wrong with unlocking bonus bonfires through exploration or spending resources. My point was that the actual initial clearing of the level, the actual difficult part that is where level design will matter the most, is 3 bonfires. The other one is for when you try a different connecting area and the other two are just for the shop npcs.Yes you *could do it differently for different effects, but when you play through Lost Bastille, the bonfires are well paced. You don't HAVE to do a bonfire after each boss, but neither is it wrong and it's quite common in the entire series. 3 bonfires for the size and content of the level is totally fine. Going back to DS1, you kill Quelaag and you are rewarded with a bonfire. Nothing wrong with that.
>>750636497That webm is disingenuous because that player clearly dragged a bunch of enemies from all over the place to that spot, the spot itself didn't have all those enemies
>>750649619Yeah my bad i saw the retarded branch things and figured it was that gay boss without reading the words
>>750650791That's the part right at the end of the internal Haligtree section.They're all over there. An Erdtree Avatar, two Dragon cult Knights, and a few foot soldiers manning the balistas.I agree with you generally, but that specific section is a very unfun gauntlet of way too many enemies.
>>750635182First time playing this I had my DS2fag friend rolling through this shithole and me firing soul arrows from behind. It wasn't that hard.
>>750650678>3 bonfires for the size and content of the level is totally fine.I simply disagree. Ruin Sentinels is not a particularly hard bossfight and Lost Bastille as a total level isn't very big. Again, a single ladder shortcut could make it all work with a single bonfire for the majority of it. It's okay for certain areas to require you to go through enemies to get back to, like Belfry Luna. Designing levels with the intent of repetition in traversal is a good thing (nevermind DS2's mechanic of limited enemy spawns if things become such a chore, which isn't the best solution in practice but like many other DS2 ideas well intentioned and deserving of iteration) and letting an area be so complex you have to manage resources to explore it in totality is a better design than challenge corridors with rests. It'd be like tossing a bonfire in the middle of the catacombs to me, to go back to TotG. Likewise the Quelaag bonfire comes with a weight DS2 bonfires (and no others) ever have in that you're warpless when you get there. My first playthrough I'd gone down the Great Hollow then tediously had to come back up after resting down there, when I fought Quelaag I hadn't even checked out the water wheel yet and while it isn't really much different than the bonfire under the drain, each one you take at that point is going further into a place you're uncertain how to get out of. What looks like an elevator isn't so that bonfire gets you nothing except respawning the meager enemies blocking your path backwards.
>>750651898>its not hard if you have multiple peopleRivetting stuff, all of these games are piss easy if you just summon someone else the whole time
>>750650791The Haligtree has a lot of enemies and a lot of fuck you moments. It's the optional big challenge area so I dunno what people expect. I mean it gets far worse from that when you have to go through sludge with centipede dudes and the gangbang of Millicent's fight. There's the whole room of pests past the Rot Lake too where you can ALSO kite an Erdtree wiggler thing and that's just an utterly hilarious gangbang situation, especially with how retarded the damage is on their pest threads. There are plenty of areas with lots of enemies across Elden Ring, lots of annoying enemies too.
>>750641601are you clearing the dlcs as well?
>>750651898>>750651994proof there's no bait too shitty or stale for /v/
>>750651937I mean really you are just talking about level design based around warping vs. having to traverse the level always more than anything. I certainly am not enamored with warp based level design decisions. But that's something much easier to discuss and agree on then the precise number of bonfires acceptable.
>>750652538It's part of it. I think it's unavoidable discussing design. It's definitely something that has to be asked in design as a first question, whether bonfires are just reset-checkpoints or whether they're warpable and if so in what fashion. I'm trying to divorce it, just using examples of warpless design because many facets are the same. It comes down to "how much level is too much before a bonfire." Demon's Souls and Dark Souls 1 did it just about perfectly, but I think the games after fumbled it and I could get into the nuances of Dark Souls 1 warping vs the expanded warp list and all that but not interested in unpacking my autism on that right now but suffice to say both ideologies can work well and I think fundamentally Dark Souls 2 was the start of too many bonfires as a problem that began to impact level design. Though I think in its case the situation is more of a "production problems impacted design" more than anything with a lot shuffled around late into production, bonfire placement is just a symptom of greater problems. Scholar probably could've done a better job with this, it did in some places but Scholar could have been a way more thorough and thoughtful redesign than what we got.
