How do we solve this rift between devs and players
>>750565361Yeah, don't make dogshit open world games. Making people waste 15 minutes of their time holding a key to get somewhere with nothing interesting to do on the way is objectively bad game design. CRPGs solved this by not being open world and dividing the playable areas into content rich maps with travel time between them abstracted and shortened from what it would actually be.
>>750565531>with nothing interesting to do on the wayWhy did you add this to the premise
>>750565361>I shall force the player to kill 99999 goblins and collect 99999 feces and it shall be elegant, it shall be poignant, it shall be art
>>750565559As a clause to prevent anyone from saying>well, erhm, hehe, you see you sometimes get attacked on the road, so... heh, checkmate ;)Radiant content is a good filler sometimes, but you don't want 15 minutes of it during travel time because it balloons it out to half an hour of your companions informing you yet again that wolves hunt in packs. It's like trying to read a book, but right in the middle of a chapter you get 15 pages of ellipses before getting back to it.This is why most open world games implement fast travel options in the end, some even without having to unlock the areas first by physically going there over the map. Legitimate travel time is not engaging or fun for most gamers, which a game is supposed to be. People are literally hypnotised into near catatonic states when driving in straight lines for extended periods of time. As a dev, you have to anticipate gamer response to your product, not your artistic vision of a simulated and immersive world.
this was certainly drawn by a redditor
>>750565810>Legitimate travel time is not engaging or fun for most gamersWhich is why it's being used as a deterrentIf you wander into an area with enemies that are far above you in level and get demolished, it's not fun or engaging but you take it as a sign meaning "I'm not supposed to keep trying this", but if you do a 15 minute trek once and you hate it most players won't think "I'm not supposed to keep trying this" they'll complain about the time it takes or ask for fast travel
>>750565820new
>>750565894>I want to railroad players without railroading playersNo, just railroad them. The open world gimmick is not worth it over a more structured experience.
>>750565965>players complain about being railroaded instead
>>750565810Dragons dogma is one of the only open worlds I enjoyed traveling around in. What a retarded example
>>750566094That's the point, New Vegas had bad railroading. It wanted to be a structured experience but also wanted to be open world, you cannot have it both ways. You do one or the other.
>>750566139Except it had fantastic railroading and was one of the best open world games of all time because of it, just like San Andreas. Letting players go anywhere they want from the start just means you have to design everything in the entire world as a viable first timer experience, meanwhile the state Vegas is in hits harder when you understand the House vs NCR vs Legion conflict through your experiences in Primm, Nipton, Boulder City etc, you're allowed to build up a narrative instead of making every place a shallow modular instance that doesn't connect to anything else like Fallout 3
It's that easy.
Morrowind NPCs including the first guy you're directed to for the main quest just tell you to use your brain, don't do a job if it seems too tough, do something else if a quest seems to difficult, and bring a scroll or a way to teleport out if you need to bail. I can't think of a more elegant solution than that. It works as in-universe dialog and also acts as a way to directly tell the player what's up, and it's mostly common sense.
>>750566094>A first time player, though technically able to go anywhere, will naturally feel like following the "new player path" as envisioned by the dev without the dev explicitly telling or forcing them to do so.>experienced players with foreknowledge can easily diverge from this path and challenge harder content earlier.This is good game design.
>>750566280Most people who think New Vegas is the greatest game ever made ended up cutting their balls off. I'm hesitant to trust their reasoning skills. Let people go anywhere they want or force them down a corridor, there is nothing more elegant than making up your god damned mind.
>>750566361I agree >>750566280>>750566367New Vegas lets you do both and is one of the best open world games ever because of it, maybe you should try playing games before you critique them based entirely on jeet-propagated memes
>>750565371Slay the Princess innovates on this by having the harder-to-find endings be progressively worse.
>>750566367You are a victim of troongating.
Has any game actually done open world workout fast travel not feel like shit
>>750566456The point is that you can't make a game that dynamically responds to the player's organic behavior because players think there are right and wrong ways to play, and will gladly modify what they want to do if they think it's the "right" way
>>750566770That's one thing I really like about Slay The Princess. It outright says that there are no wrong choices, and regardless of how badly you screw up in any given scenario, it'll all end the same way, where that iteration of the Princess gets whisked away by the Shifting Mound, and you get memory-wiped, and sent back to the start again.I think the solution to the player behavior problem is having enough for each type of player, and being a bit more flexible with the criteria. The example in the pic seems to be the only secret ending, and one mistake can ruin it for you. But even still, it's a catch 22, because if you know about it, you already know what you need to do to get it. If you don't, then ideally, you shouldn't care about getting the default ending.It's when the default ending is seen as a pity option that's far less satisfying that it becomes an issue.I digress. I'm struggling to figure out how to address this issue in my own game. I'm thinking of having one ending for each alignment, and general character archetype (strength, dexterity, intelligence, faith)
>>750566765Morrowind
>>750565361Zoomoids have broken brains and an attention span of a maximum of 10 seconds. You literally cannot solve this rift because alphoids are even worse. Infinite scrolling and Tiktok-likes have literally doomed humanity.
>>750566765Nier automata
>>750565361>my game is open worldThis is where the dev fucked up.
>>750568127It's the only Elder Scrolls game without fast travel for a reason.It was just tedious to waddle your asthmatic ass across the brown and grey landscapes just to speak to an NPC for a few minutes, then go on to the next quest.Elder Scrolls is a dungeon crawling series first and foremost, but Todd and Kirkbride wanted to turn that game into Planescape: Torment, then backtracked like crazy.
>>750568338>mark>recall>ALMSVI intervention>Intervention >the ferriesHuh?
>>750568480you know what I mean. It's the only TES game where you don't click on a location on a map, and skip past the travel to end up at that location after a loading screen.Though, I'll admit, I'm not a fan of how Oblivion did it, with how you can go to major cities you've never been to. At least with Daggerfall, there's a good excuse that you're just skipping past hours of empty nothingness.
we should just kill all stupid players
>>750565371The problem is it's one of the three choices, so you you have, presumably, a bad ending, a good ending and a special reward ending.I think it wouldn't be received as bad if it was one among more special approaches or general outcomes.This one especially feels like pinpoint slander of that one UTmoron.
