Yeah, steel beams.

>>24050808
I saw a Gundam fan design that was like that. It was an inner frame that emitted beam armor all over.

File: Lee_robot.png (442 KB, 800x600)

442 KB PNG

>Gundam made of solid light

File: 35246436522.jpg (14 KB, 350x283)

14 KB JPG

>>24050825 >>24050875

>>24050808
>beam everything
think fast chucklenuts

File: its-sunday-the-church-of-(...).png (1.41 MB, 1080x1080)

1.41 MB PNG

>>24050871 >>24050922 >>24051317 >>24054017

One of the few things I remember watching Seed was Jesus Yamato using the Freedom Gundam and them reusing the beam animation over and over again. The most it was used in one episode 3 and I was flabbergasted. How on Earth did we watch a show where one pilot could fight 10 or even 15 Gundams at the same time?

>>24050816
What a no-fun-allowed setting.

>>24050825
What a retarded anon.

>>24050819
Tell me you didn't watch gundam wing without telling me you didn't watch gundam wing

File: jobbatos.jpg (45 KB, 303x660)

45 KB JPG

>>24050887 >>24050899

>>24050816
>Not so fa-AIIIEEEEEEEEEE

>>24050875
>champ freedom
nigga that's cheating. Champ is too op

What's the appeal of SEED? I haven't seen it, and it seems really popular on /m/ lately.

File: StrikeJobFreedom.mp4 (1.69 MB, 686x374)

1.69 MB MP4

>>24050922 >>24051160

>>24050875
>gets fucked over against someone who can fight it evenly
>gets nearly killed by missiles
Barbs tanked the superweapon and soloed an army, what's your excuse fukuda's pet?

>>24050819
>where one pilot could fight 10 or even 15 Gundams at the same time?
Amuro was doing similar feats in the og series. Did you forget the time he shot down like 15 Doms?

>>24050899
This is a sidenote, but one thing I really disliked about SEED Freedom is how they reduced the mechanical elements in the cockpit.
Used to have so many cool looking screens and surfaces there and most of it was swapped out for holographic touchscreens.

>>24050892
Seed is, for good and for ill, a 2000s reimagining of 0079. Instead of 70s psychedelics culture creating NewTypes, we have confirmed genetic research creating Coordinators. The original series is solid, not perfect at all but solid. Destiny is what gets deserved hate.

>>24050892
It's popular despite being shit so it's prime shitposting material. It's getting new content too with a new movie coming in the next few months.

That's actually kind of what Turn A is. The metal parts are a hollow shell over an incredibly complex I-Field construct.

>>24050825
>pancaking fools with a giant fucking mecha warhammer
>”no fun”
lol sure thing buddy

>>24050899
But guys, don't you know that unlike that pathetic scrub Shinn and his worthless Destiny shit during Orb, Strike Freedom never ran out of power? It was just out of coolant.

>>24050928
>The original series is solid, not perfect at all but solid.
Bullshit. The series is garbage. A complete travesty on the franchise's name, not unlike what Disney did with its Star Wars trilogy. Every single problem Destiny had comes from SEED.

Some of the ideas might've been interesting in the hands of a competent staff, rather than a director more interested in doing empty shonen power fantasy and a screenwriter forced to write teen drama.

>>24050892
It's just Gundam with extra soap opera drama. Hit a wave of new viewers at the exact right time so it got popular.

>>24050892
It has melodrama, good music, cool robots and cool fights.

>>24051277
>melodrama
Wing did this before, and with a much better work at actual characterization. Unlike SEED, you don't hate any of the characters.

>cool robots
Shame they forget about most of them only to feature the fucking gundams

>cool fights
If you like recycled animation and monotonous directing, sure.

>>24051127
>gets punched in the head
>breaks

>>24051288
>Wing did this before, and with a much better work at actual characterization. Unlike SEED, you don't hate any of the characters
You act like there aren't a bunch of contrarians hating on Wing and its characters here too.

>Shame they forget about most of them only to feature the fucking gundams
The Gundams are fucking cool too. Only a contrarian would shit on the Strike, Freedom, Providence, Impulse and Destiny. The Gundams piloted by Athrun's squad in the first show aren't half bad either.

>If you like recycled animation and monotonous directing, sure.
Wing also has a recycled animation, that budget issue doesn't mean both shows don't have some really fucking good and well-directed fights that became iconic for a reason. When the action hits, it really hits.

File: Strike original design.png (194 KB, 500x358)

194 KB PNG

>>24051314 >>24051370

>>24051299
>contrarians
Is that a buzzword you use to dismiss any opinion you disagree with? Stop that shit.
And none of what you said is a reply as to Wing doing a much better job at writing its characters and motivations than fucking SEED.

>Strike
Interesting baseline design, but the pack shit sometimes gets in the way and makes it too busy for its own word.

>Providence
Absolutely hideous gundam with a fat suit. It's like the design is trying to be something it's not, especially with the forced "standard gundam loadout" of rifle and shield that Fukuda almost always does to his units. The O or Quin Mantha didn't need to have a fucking shield to be terrifying.

>Freedom
Double X did this idea before, and better.

>Impulse
Strike with a mostly pointless Core Fighter gimmick and brought to Okawara's orthodox style (Strike's original design was by Keiichiro Katagiri; Okawara only did "cleanup").

>When the action hits, it really hits.
If you really detest the fucking characters, it doesn't. It's empty spectacle.
To bring the Star Wars example again, does anyone goes as how "hype" the rebel fleet scene was in Episode IX? No, because the whole movie and its characters are contemptible.

>>24051311
You're such a joyless fuck.

>Double X did this idea before, and better.
X didn't invent shoulder cannons.

>If you really detest the fucking characters, it doesn't. It's empty spectacle.
>To bring the Star Wars example again, does anyone goes as how "hype" the rebel fleet scene was in Episode IX? No, because the whole movie and its characters are contemptible.
I don't care about your obsession with Star Wars and its sequel trilogy. Also, there's a fuckton of people who like SEED's characters and get hyped about its fight scenes, it's literally the most popular non-UC Gundam installment by a wide margin.

>>24050819
>How on Earth did we watch a show where one pilot could fight 10 or even 15 Gundams at the same time?

He didn't He fought grunts of that level at the same time but that's a standard Gundam feat, Kira just had lazy animation compared to most others. Against other Gundam's Freedom typically had a minor advantage at best and was on the back foot at worst. The sole exception were the two ocean battles in Destiny where Kira was tearing even other Gundam's up like grunts but Kira was ridiculous in those episodes and everyone else just kind of froze like idiots and let him shoot them. Two episodes later in Berlin suddenly Kira is mortal again

>>24051182
No. Seed's uninspired at worst, a perfectly tolerable series. It's not even close to being at a level that bad and anyone who says so needs to watch more shitty Gundam

>>24051182
Fuck off Abicion. It's been over 20 years already, get over it

File: beam_gundam.jpg (244 KB, 1200x848)

244 KB JPG

>>24051401 >>24051764 >>24051929 >>24054002

>>24050808
Now that's a good idea!

>>24051149
I think he means more the fact that the "rebel" forces still recognize their enemy's laws as right

>>24051311
Providence was basically "Zeong but a Gundam"

>>24050814
>>24051353
was this the said design

>>24050892
It's Gundam with a lot more emphasis on shounen/shoujo style romance, angst and edginess.
If you're familiar with any late 90s - early 00s anime of that type like Fullmetal Alchemist 2003, Infinite Ryvius, Rahxephon, etc that's the kind of tone to expect.

It also has a portrayal of Gundams that treats them more like heroic figures. The Gundams have more "personality" and charisma in their depiction rather than just feeling like machines.

>>24051401
yeah

File: gundum.png (2.22 MB, 1492x1054)

2.22 MB PNG

>>24051929 >>24051962 >>24054002

>>24051353
Those huge DONUT STEAL watermarks just bother humans. It's trivial to AI.

>>24051353
>>24051764
Genuinely how are you meant to defeat this without sounding mad

File: __hyaku_shiki_gundam_and_(...).jpg (2.33 MB, 1400x1750)

2.33 MB JPG

>>24051764
>>24051929
>laughs in anti-beam coating
BRING ME THE BEAM GUNDAM.. NOW.

>>24051929
It'll probably snap in half if you throw a big enough rock at it

File: file.png (1.51 MB, 1451x1842)

1.51 MB PNG

>>24052101

>>24051314
And you're a retarded consumer, eating up the slop when you get "hyped", so you buy product. No questions asked.

>X didn't invent shoulder cannons.
Between the twin shoulder cannons and the wings, the shared design cues are obvious. You can pin it on Okawara being lazy and uncreative, but you can't dismiss the similarities between Double X and Freedom/SF.

>I don't care about your obsession with Star Wars and its sequel trilogy.
Okay, another example, then: RWBY. Started out as a series of all-action machinima shorts. Viewers got "hyped", so they made it a full series. Fell flat on its face when they attempted to add a story to it: the only value was in the animation, and they don't even have that anymore after Monty passed away.

>>24050808
That's where UC was going. You would eventually have mobile suits that are just beam armor that can also be beam sabers at the same time, protecting a central core that is just the generator, cockpit, and thrusters.

>>24050892
It's 0079 but with a more "concrete" conflict between the genetic superiors and the genetic inferiors rather than battles between cartoonishly evil space Nazis and the lazy and buffoonish Earthnoids.

It also has actual romance, so there's a secondary source of tension that isn't present in the original 0079 which led to a broader fanbase of boys and girls. It helps that Cagalli and Fllay are both decent love interests for their time in the series, and that romantic relationships give the secondary characters some spine for their own stories and character arcs that 0079 lacked.

The prospect of Gundams fighting Gundams was also cool. And the mechanical design of the show was generally pretty good, aside from the Skygrasper.

>>24052081
>retarded consumer
>slop
Is that a buzzword you use to dismiss any opinion you disagree with? Stop that shit.

>Between the twin shoulder cannons and the wings, the shared design cues are obvious. You can pin it on Okawara being lazy and uncreative, but you can't dismiss the similarities between Double X and Freedom/SF.
You might as well cry over how the Altron is a Dragon Gundam rip-off, how the Virsago is an Epyon rip-off, or how Leopard is a Heavyarms rip-off,

>Okay, another example, then: RWBY
Listen, I don't give a fuck about any of the shit you're personally obsessed with.

As much as you want to delude yourself into thinking otherwise, SEED was and still is extremely popular and beloved. It didn't fall flat on its face, it was a big success that a lot of people enjoyed and continue to enjoy.

File: Sorrow.jpg (176 KB, 720x1067)

176 KB JPG

>>24052220 >>24052231 >>24052810

>>24052099
>It's 0079 but with a more "concrete" conflict between the genetic superiors and the genetic inferiors
The point of Newtypes is the evolution of humankind as a species, so it's very much concrete.

>It helps that Cagalli and Fllay are both decent love interests for their time in the series, and that romantic relationships give the secondary characters some spine for their own stories and character arcs that 0079 lacked.
It's hilarious that you say Fllay instead of Lacus when the former gets forgotten halfway through until it's time to kill her. And no, Cagalli is fucking garbage as a character.

>and that romantic relationships give the secondary characters some spine for their own stories and character arcs that 0079 lacked.
Apart from Mwu and Murrue, which secondary characters had romantic arcs? Miriallia and Dearka, which was nipped during Destiny? To be fair, I think all of the romance in SEED is awfully, awfully done, so all of your spiel about it being somehow and "upgrade" from 0079 is stupid

>The prospect of Gundams fighting Gundams was also cool.
See attached. The overemphasis on Gundams weakened SEED as a story: compared to any other show in the franchise apart from G, the grunt units are less than worthless.

>>24052110
You are a retard

>>24052220
No substantial reply, huh?

>>24052110
>The point of Newtypes is the evolution of humankind as a species, so it's very much concrete.
0079 wasn't centered around an all out war between Newtypes and Oldtypes. There were only a few Newtypes in both factions, and not much was known about them at that point in time.

Newtypes in UC never became numerous enough to make up a whole faction, they were always restricted to being only a few special individuals on either side during any given conflict. The idea that all of humanity would evolve into Newtypes at some point ended up being a completely speculative assumption that we never got to actually see.

>>24052231
>0079 wasn't centered around an all out war between Newtypes and Oldtypes.
It is, if you look at it thematically. There's a reason why "souls weighed down by gravity" is a meme. SEED only makes the conflict ethnic in origin, rather than merely national/ideological.

>Newtypes in UC never became numerous enough to make up a whole faction, they were always restricted to being only a few special individuals on either side during any given conflict.
While Coordinators fit the bill for the "human reform" element that Newtypes stand for in UC, the real "next stage of humankind" in CE is actually the SEED factor that a few special characters seem to possess. Astray does some nonsense about "'True Coordinators' are those that work for the good of humanity", but it's best to ignore that specific brand of bullshit, like anything from Astray

>>24052250
>It is, if you look at it thematically.
It's a Federation vs Zeon conflict all the way to the end. The Newtypes never rebel against the system in any meaningful way, Char took the Zabis out because he had a personal vendetta against them. This was about Earthnoids vs Spacenoids, the Zabis trying to take over the world by attacking Earth and the other colonies, actual Newtype ideology wasn't a central point of the conflict, Newtypes had been barely explored at this point.

>There's a reason why "souls weighed down by gravity" is a meme.
That was in Zeta, which focused way more on Newtypes and Newtype ideology, not in 0079.

>>24051368
Oh someone actually understood.

>>24052110
>the grunt units are less than worthless.

Grunt units have almost always been worthless from G onwards. All they did was make it so that all of the one off custom ace enemy units were also Gundam's instead of having non Gundam designs.

i always wanted a gundam that could somehow generate beams kind of out of thin air or what have you

>>24052223
SEED (especially side content) is a grunt lover's dream though

>>24052878
Isn't that God Gundam?

>>24052885
i don't recall God-
oh, lol, i guess but i mean it in a different manner

>>24052883
SEEDfags believe SEED is anything except for what it actually is.

File: tip.jpg (10 KB, 232x261)

10 KB JPG

>>24052924
lol are you the same guy that got mad at me for saying G-Savior designs were shit until the game made them all better? I can tell because you're using a fresh slur after likely getting moderated for your preferred one

File: beam bits.webm (1.63 MB, 1280x720)

1.63 MB WEBM

>>24053007 >>24053011

>>24052878

>>24053006
what's that thing?

>>24053006
LOL
are you two fighting or something

File: balls are touching.webm (3.81 MB, 852x480)

3.81 MB WEBM

>>24053016

>>24053007
legilis gundam from age

it was in that 3rd arc where they became able to cover the gundams in beam energy

>>24053013
poor AGE... doomed to irrelevance

>>24050825
>setting where a long time ago unmanned MAs went crazy and almost ended humanity. Knight-like combat between melee focused Gundams vs MA beasts.
>never really delve into this at all
IBO was a mistake that could have been corrected.

>>24053339
It's the same problem many other Gundam anime and manga suffer from. The backstory is often *more* interesting than the actual story they are trying to tell.

I'm honestly surprised no one at Bandai pointed this out during the planning phases of IBO. No one said:

>"Hey this solar war backstory stuff is a lot cooler than this Tekkadan nonsense. Why don't we just make an anime about this great mobile armor vs mobile suit solar war? We could sell a ton to gunpla too!"

I'm shocked this topic never came up during discussions. Instead we got shirtless pilots and everyone dying at the end of anime.

>>24053371
Even a manga would have been good enough. But not even the shitty dead mobile game was about that.

>>24053371
The probably just assumed people care more about shirtless edgy teenagers that some war. It's like how Rosario to Vampire's fairly decent plot was totally ignored in the anime in favor of more and more ecchi shit and the staff held meetings entirely about panty shots and nothing else. The mentality is that the average Japanese just wants jerk off material to ease the pain of Japanese day to day life and cares about nothing else

>>24053371
Bandai is allergic to making kits of MAs for the most part.

>>24053371
counterpoint - the backstory is only more interesting because it ISN'T fleshed out and it is so vague that you naturally project hopes and dreams about it not being done as poorly done as the main plot. the moment they actually start developing it, you would lose interest because it just becomes more of the same stuff you didn't like much anyway

alternative counterpoint - 4.5 of the 5 solar wars are just conventional wars with no MS/MA. MS such as the hellion don't even get introduced until halfway through the last solar war, and these are the lowest performance models that need to spend 3 hours in a hangar with a team of mechanics to change from aerial to ground combat mode and vice versa, so you're just going to be bored in other ways unless you like that kind of stuff, but then I'd be asking why you're interested in the source material at all

>>24051353
>>24051764
The frame isn’t beams so it doesn’t count.

>>24050819
>How on Earth did we watch a show where one pilot could fight 10 or even 15 Gundams at the same time?
Because OMNI's mobile suits weren't called Gundams, that was a nickname Kira gave the Strike after seeing the acronym for the project. The data from the Strike was used to develop the mass-produced Strike Dagger, equivalent to the GM. Zaft fielded Ginns, equivalent to Zakus. Kira was (nonlethally) blowing away enemy grunts.

>>24050809
But could jet fuel melt it?

File: 1790014525241509.jpg (1.92 MB, 1601x1671)

1.92 MB JPG

>>24050808
Isn't there some Turn A DEEP LORE that says the titular Gundam is actually built out of "solid" beams held together by I-fields?

File: legilis-attacks.gif (398 KB, 165x103)

398 KB GIF

>>24058358

>>24050808
Then I have the Gundam Legilis for you.

>>24055354
I don't think jets would make for good fuel.

File: Strip 1.jpg (1.88 MB, 1920x2160)

1.88 MB JPG

>>24058176

>>24054017
>The data from the Strike was used to develop the mass-produced Strike Dagger, equivalent to the GM
No, it wasn't. You're mixing up the story of First Gundam with SEED. Strike's "data" couldn't have had a role in the development of the Strike Dagger, mainly because the Archangel lost the fucking unit during the battle in the Pacific.
Also, they already had a new MS program well-advanced by the time AA got to Alaska. What could they possibly offer them?

>OMNI
Also, nobody ever called the Earth Alliance that, not even in-series. It's one of those things that only exists as on-screen text or in model kit decals.

>>24058008
>No, it wasn't. You're mixing up the story of First Gundam with SEED. Strike's "data" couldn't have had a role in the development of the Strike Dagger, mainly because the Archangel lost the fucking unit during the battle in the Pacific.
Even if the main unit was lost, the accumulated data was still backed up on Archangel's computers. Its rather silly that you assumed otherwise. Kira's Natural OS was vital in helping create the control systems for the Strike Dagger.

>>24058176
That can't be right because Kira made said Natural OS for Orb in secret, not the EA. And the Dagger's were already working (hell they were part of the invasion) before EA seized Orb.

>>24055748
Oh right, beam funnels.

File: MS Gundam SEED (Original)(...).jpg (173 KB, 704x528)

173 KB JPG

>>24058427 >>24058510 >>24058567

>>24058176
>Even if the main unit was lost, the accumulated data was still backed up on Archangel's computers.
No, it's silly you might think that was the case. Strike was locked-down for Kira. Nobody else except him could access its systems, which were lost when the unit was destroyed.

Also, what >>24058342 said. The Natural OS was made for Kira in Orb's development facilities. Other than Mwu, the Archangel's crew never touched it, knew of its existence or were known to pass it to the Earth Alliance.

File: file.png (1.2 MB, 704x1584)

1.2 MB PNG

>>24058176
>>24058420 (cont'd)
And whatever hack Kira did to Strike to make it operational was for his use alone. Mwu said the unit couldn't be operated by anyone else (proven when that dumb friend of his tried to move it and failed).
So no, even if by some reason, the Archangel had any data from the Strike, they couldn't have used to for anything, unless they wanted to have Coordinators piloting them.

>>24058420
One of the books I forget which one claims the Dagger's Natural use OS is just a bunch of preprogrammed maneuvers and movement data. Kira's Orb MS meanwhile calibrated and dumbed everything down enough that Natural pilots could manually pilot them. Which is presumably while Orb MS tended to out perform EA MS on an individual level.

>>24058510
>Which is presumably while Orb MS tended to out perform EA MS on an individual level.
This doesn't make any sense. I remember them saying that Astrays were the weakest of its generation, and were not a match for Ginns and Strike Daggers. Yes even with beam weapons, the Ginns were better.thsn Astrays.

>>24058549
that sounds like the same kind of dumb cope as origin where zakus were superior to guncannons with beam rifles

>>24058420
I'm 95% sure you are wrong. I remember the databooks (or novels?) mentions the EA copied the backup Strike OS data from Archangels computers. Then modified the OS and installed the OS into the Strike daggers.

That's why during the first Battle of Orb the Daggers are so annoying to deal with. They are slightly lower performance than Strike Gundam but they all fight like "Early Season 1 Kira" . It's why Buster Gundam and Perfect Strike Gundam can't just immediately steamroll them. Dearkka, Mwu, and the Astray pilots actually have to try hard to beat the Daggers. It's why they are exhausted afterwards. They had to fight a swarm of diet clone Kiras.

>>24058549
>I remember them saying that Astrays were the weakest of its generation,
Who is "them"?

>and were not a match for Ginns and Strike Daggers. Yes even with beam weapons, the Ginns were better.thsn Astrays.
You dumb motherfucker, M1s are basically MP Gundams: they share their engineering with the snowflake Astrays. Orb kept using them even after they deployed the Murasame. The bottleneck at first were its pilots.

>>24058567
>I remember the databooks (or novels?) mentions the EA copied the backup Strike OS data from Archangels computers.
And that makes no sense. The placeholder OS had to be modified by all of the pilots before use because it was worthless for combat operations. And Kira didn't let anyone get on the Strike's data, not even the Archangel's people.
Also, the novels haven't been translated thus far yet. Astray's novel 1, which was translated a while ago, points out that the Archangel could only share combat data (ie. telemetry) of Strike and its battles against the stolen units, but the Strike Dagger's OS itself was developed elsewhere.

>That's why during the first Battle of Orb the Daggers are so annoying to deal with.
>Dearkka, Mwu, and the Astray pilots actually have to try hard to beat the Daggers. It's why they are exhausted afterwards.
No, they are exhausted because the Earth Alliance was deploying them in sheer volume and they were vastly outnumbered. None of them had any Kira-like capability, apart from "shoot weapon".

>>24058594
Your entire argument is "uhh there's no way they made a backup of Strike's data on the Archangel". Except they did.

>>24058623
oh yeah then how come the data didn't let them use striker packs

>>24058633
They cut out the Striker packs because

The EA wanted rapid mass production as quickly as possible in order to push back ZAFT. They simplified the design to favor quick production. Striker packs complicates things.

>>24058549
That's completely wrong. Astray's were superior to Ginn's and Strike Daggers. The only thing that was better were the Guaiz's. The Astray's struggled because they were really short on numbers compared to the massive forces EA and Zaft had, not because they were inferior.

>>24058567
>I remember the databooks (or novels?) mentions the EA copied the backup Strike OS data from Archangels computers. Then modified the OS and installed the OS into the Strike daggers.

Anon is right, that's impossible because Kira's OS was custom made for him and impossible for Naturals to use. He had to built a completely new one for the Astray's which EA wouldn't have had access to until well after the Daggers are deployed.

File: 1791654073115.jpg (244 KB, 1170x1618)

244 KB JPG

>>24058657 >>24059015

>>24058643
>The Astray's struggled because they were really short on numbers compared to the massive forces EA and Zaft had, not because they were inferior.
Wrong. The M1 Astrays fought a 12 vs 12 against the same number of Ginns. The Astrays were losing. Athrun even said they weren't good enough to beat the Ginns and had to call for a retreat, and drag Kira back to save the Astrays.

>>24058654
Wasn't the astrays jobbing fukuda getting pissy at the astray writer or some shit? Regardless, shit pilots doesn't really change the performance of the machines themselves.

>>24058657
I recall reading that M1s had inferior sensors installed compared to other mobile suits. This was done to save costs. This WOULD explain why their aim is terrible.

>>24058663
Everyone not named kira(specifically when he is in the freedom or SF)'s aim is terrible to fair.

>>24055354
Melt? No. Become soft, bendable and completely losing structural integrity? Yes.

>>24058623
>"uhh there's no way they made a backup of Strike's data on the Archangel". Except they did.
Where? When? Do we see or hear of said backup anywhere, like in a data-book or novel?
Astray novel 1 points out that the Archangel only had telemetry of the GAT-X series (whatever the AA's sensors were able to gather), not a copy of the OS, either the original or Kira's. The OS itself was developed elsewhere.

File: MS Gundam SEED (Original)(...).jpg (137 KB, 704x528)

137 KB JPG

>>24059018 >>24059066

>>24058654
The issue here wasn't raw performance (M1 outclasses the old GINN), but everything else happening in that battle:
>M1s were piloted by rookies with very little experience. We see those three girls struggle in almost every battle they are deployed, to the point they get eventually killed in a very Fukuda manner.
>the Murasame was a straggler ship, with no way of getting fresh pilots, backup units or spare parts for the M1 onboard.
>the GINNs were supported by Yzak, an ace pilot in a Gundam

As an aside, the direction is a complete fucking mess. It's difficult to make heads or tails out of what's happening in the battle. The skirmish with the Boosted Men are a fucking distraction to it all, basically an excuse to reuse flashy animation cuts.

>>24059015
>M1s were piloted by rookies with very little experience.
So? The M1s are supposedly much more advanced than Ginns so it should be a fair fight. Yet the M1s still lost.

>the GINNs were supported by Yzak, an ace pilot in a Gundam
And the M1s were supported by the Buster Gundam. So it's a fair fight.

Funnily enough despite Athrun saying the Orb forces were outmatched, from what little we see of the fight the M1's took out several Ginn's with no problem and the Kusanagi destroys the Vesalius. So Athrun was wrong on his estimation of their abilities.

>>24058623
>>24059009
I want to jump into this conversation and point out that both forgot that the Archangel also captured the Buster Gundam. Buster's data could have been shared with the Earth Alliance too.

>>24059027
I don't think so because Murrue reports the captured Buster to the EA brass and they tell her they don't care and to remain on standby (because they're going to blow them up with the rest of the base). They didn't even bother to unload the Buster first. And regardless Buster's data would be even more worthless than Strike's because it's OS was configured by Zaft techs which would make it even more Natural unfriendly.

>>24059025
I think they were trying to run away because the M1 was so weak. If they stayed the M1 suits would eventually be destroyed and the Kusanagi get sunk

>>24059045
Considering they mostly wiped the floor with Zaft forces as they were leaving I don't think so. The Dominion was the threat, not Zaft.

>>24059060
That's because they suicide ran a single zaft ship and charged through. The plan was very risky and could have failed.

File: The Last Stand at Isandlwana.png (1.64 MB, 1200x748)

1.64 MB PNG

>>24059100 >>24059109

>>24059018
>So?
No, that's not how it fucking works. Technology does not, and has never, compensated for lack of combat experience. Green troops and rookie officers are a liability on the battlefield, no matter how well-armed you might be compared to the enemy.
>surely our breech-loading rifles and artillery can defeat those native savages armed with spears, right?!

>much more advanced than Ginns
Not "much more", only one generation forward and capable of carrying compact beam weapons.
Apart from that, M1 was designed to be cheap and agile. It doesn't even have PS armor, so it depends exclusively on its shield to defend against enemy fire.

>>24059015
>We see those three girls struggle in almost every battle they are deployed, to the point they get eventually killed in a very Fukuda manner.
But that's because they're supposed to be SEED Shrikes only nowhere as much /ss/.

File: GATA-01E2_-_Buster_Dagger(...).jpg (828 KB, 1484x2614)

828 KB JPG

>>24059072 >>24059080

>>24059027
Canonically the Earth Alliance still had data for the Buster transferred to their brass even though theft happened. By the time the Gundams got stolen, enough data was sent over to both eventually make a Buster Dagger and the Druggie mechs were descendants of those original 5 Gundams.

When Rau calls for a retreat we see him and Yzak flying towards the remaining ships alone through a debris field of wrecked Ginn's implying all of them were wiped out. Unless Dearka took out most of the Ginn's himself (we see one of the Astray girls take out at least one) it looks like the M1's held up fine against the Ginn's despite Athrun thinking otherwise.

>>24059068
I mean the EA also had other built versions of the GAT-X units which eventually became Strike Noir and friends.

>>24059068
Again, you're overestimating the influence of the "data". It's not like the only blueprints for the GAT-X were in Heliopolis and got lost in combat. They didn't make more Busters or Blitzes not only because the prototypes had been captured by ZAFT and the war had shifted by then, but also their lack of versatility compared to the Strike's modularity.

The Gundams of the Boosted Men (no, I refuse to use that stupid meme; it's been too fucking long already) had a lot of advanced tech and didn't need anything from the Archangel. If the EA could deploy three very advanced MS, why was whatever the Archangel could've sent so important for the Strike Dagger project?

To repeat myself, just because SEED roughly follows on the template of First Gundam (quadruped ship from a remote colony has to make it to the Earth headquarters), it doesn't mean the rest of the details are the same as well.

>>24059080
>They didn't make more Busters or Blitzes not only because the prototypes had been captured by ZAFT and the war had shifted by then, but also their lack of versatility compared to the Strike's modularity.
They're too expensive. They made duel and buster daggers, it's just even the 105 daggers couldn't be given to everyone so they did strike daggers. They hit the stage they needed to shit out as many mobile suits as possible but still made a handful of duel and buster daggers. Strike's backpack system is nice but the strike daggers didn't have it and majority of daggers used didn't have one

File: file.png (2.16 MB, 1367x2130)

2.16 MB PNG

>>24059086
I'm annoyed at the existence of Long Dagger/Duel Dagger, from an out-of-universe perspective. The EA already had the 105 and Strike Dagger in production. What's the point of this unit?

It's not a testbed (those were the 5 original GAT-Xs), it's not for elite pilots (there are newer, more advanced units out there), it's not even for EA-affiliated Coordinators (shortcoming solved in the Duel Dagger series), and it can't even mount Striker Packs. It's a shittier 105 in every regard. For fuck's sake, it doesn't even have Phase Shift.

And the armor gimmick was a ZAFT thing that was originally for GINNs, which they now have to justify being added to an EA unit for... theming, I guess?

Wouldn't a mass-produced derivative of the Aegis make more sense? It's the only one of the original five that didn't have one, despite the EA being a lot more fond of mobile armors than humanoid MS.

>>24059065
>No, that's not how it fucking works. Technology does not, and has never, compensated for lack of combat experience.
Kira in Strike Gundam beat the shit out of numerous veteran Zaft pilots. So in Gundam Seed YES technology fucking compensates for lack of combat experience.

>>24059070
We don't know how many M1s were lost. But we do know they suffered losses that added up overtime. By the end of the war most of them on the Kusanagi were gone including the 3 Astray girls.

>>24059100
>Kira in Strike Gundam beat the shit out of numerous veteran Zaft pilots.
The show makes it a constant point that Kira is exceptional in every regard. His presence is not a factor you can count on when it comes to the rest of the universe.
And Strike was a versatile super-prototype with a bunch of extremely powerful weapons and combat systems like Phase Shift, whereas M1 is, again, intended to be cheap and light.

File: [XerBlade] Mobile Suit Gu(...).jpg (850 KB, 1920x1080)

850 KB JPG

>>24059108

>>24059101
I don't know how many they were deployed in the Kusanagi when it departed from Orb (a dozen?), but we see at least three next to the Archangel when the ceasefire is declared.
Plus Duel with a Strike's shield, as a bonus.

>>24059104
Frankly they should all be dead since we saw Providence Gundam murder them all with dragoons and trash the ships with beam attacks.

>>24059065
So 4 Gundams destroying an entire Earth Alliance space fleet for themselves doesn't count? Anon your statement is just wrong. You better retract it.

>>24059108
Cool it off, Shadowcell.

File: 7aaa0af7a9831b53fa8d31f1e(...).jpg (689 KB, 2160x2700)

689 KB JPG

I liked the Astray girls.

File: [XerBlade] Mobile Suit Gu(...).jpg (839 KB, 1920x1080)

839 KB JPG

>>24059134

>>24059109
>So 4 Gundams destroying an entire Earth Alliance space fleet for themselves doesn't count?
Anon, the Red Jackets are elite ZAFT pilots, in over-spec units like the Blitz. You can't pretend that four Natural rookies like the Astray trio could've done the exact same feat. The previous episode explains that Coordinators behind the Gundams' controls go way beyond just "bridging the gap".

So no, a technology advantage by itself isn't a deciding factor.

>>24059114
>in over-spec units
Your entire argument is that technology can't compensate for combat experience. You are arguing against yourself and agreeing with us.

>>24059134
>Your entire argument is that technology can't compensate for combat experience
It can't compensate for LACK of combat experience. Again, were you to put the Astray girls attacking that fleet and they would be massacred instantly:
>etoo... mirage colloid... phase shift... [BOOM!]
>ASAGIIII! [BOOM!]

>>24059070
>Athrun was wrong
The staement was said by a Red Coat veteran Zaft pilot. His analysis of the situation is much more credible than yourself. If Athrun says the Astrays are weaker than it's true. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean the statement is wrong. Despite not having beam weapons, the Ginns are still much more agile than Astrays. Ginns still pinch above their weight class.

File: Strip 1.jpg (1.62 MB, 1920x2160)

1.62 MB JPG

>>24059165 >>24059228

>>24059154
>The statement was said by a Red Coat veteran Zaft pilot. His analysis of the situation is much more credible than yourself.
>If Athrun says the Astrays are weaker than it's true.
>Just because you don't like it doesn't mean the statement is wrong.
The statement is wrong because we literally see one of the Astray girls fending off just fine against the GINNs.
In all likelihood, Athrun said that to snap Kira into attention from his shock, unsuccessfully.

>>24059160
>just fine against the GINNs.
You mean after she fired half a dozen missed shots against a Ginn that didn't even have a rifle equipped to fire back? Greeeeeaat example anon.

/hard eyeroll

File: 1623540313624.jpg (2.67 MB, 3840x1440)

2.67 MB JPG

>>24059204

>>24059142
>>24059109
>>24059018
There's also the gap between Naturals and Coordinators. The series establishes that Coordinators have better reflexes than Naturals. Behind the cockpit of an MS, they are directly moving the controls and shooting the weapons: pilot is one with the machine.
Natural-use MS are markedly different. They work through a series of computer macros and onboard combat AI for support, without which the pilot would only be able to (at best) move the machine, but not use it in combat. Note that all of the mass-produced MS for Naturals we see on the series (Strike Dagger, M1, Windam, Murasame) have a very basic loadout of rifle, shield and saber, while the Extended program was still a thing in Destiny for the stolen Gundams and Destroy. Or why the crazy MAs like Gells-Ghe required three pilots.

This would also explain why, despite being as good if not better than the ZAKU, Windams were complete cannon fodder, with zero on-screen kills other than a GINN in the movie. The pilots were only going through the motions: "fly forward", "shoot rifle", "swing saber". Meanwhile, the ZAKUs were directly controlled by their pilots, who also had the advantage of more versatile machines.

File: 1771770992013.webm (3.42 MB, 520x292)

3.42 MB WEBM

>>24059231

>>24059176
>Windams were complete cannon fodder, with zero on-screen kills other than a GINN in the movie.
A complete lie. I don't know why you would say such a thing.

File: Terrible in between.png (1.3 MB, 1920x1080)

1.3 MB PNG

>>24059165
It's got a rifle it's just so shittily drawn you can barely see it

>>24059154
A character can be wrong in show too, especially if the animation immediately disproves it by showing M1's shooting down Ginn's and a massive pilot of wrecked Ginn's at the end of it.

>>24059160
Rewatched the scene you anons are talking about. It's said that the Ginns are better. The attacking Ginns also seem to pressing the Astrays really hard and get really close to the Kusanagi with that girl pilot panicking. No one said the Ginns are invincible but it's clear the Ginns are winning the overall battle and the 3 ships alliance are in danger. Although the presentation of this battle is very messy with lots of cuts between scenes.

File: Strip 1.jpg (555 KB, 1920x480)

555 KB JPG

>>24059240

>>24059204
ZERO ON-SCREEN KILLS.

Pay attention to the sequence you just posted:
>Windams take off
>wide shot of the fleet firing anti-air missiles
>Windams move on the landing ZAKUs. A couple of them in the distance fire beams, but not missiles
>ZAKUs explode, but from the missiles fired by the ships, not the Windams' fire.
>the animator even took a few frames to animate the missile homing on the ZAKU

ZERO ON-SCREEN KILLS. The animation director/storyboard artist did the cliched "cool shot of the MS head approaching the camera" that SEED is so fond of using, but couldn't be bothered to make one scene of a Windam clearly slicing a ZAKU? Not even this "implied kill by Windam in the edit" worked under close scrutiny.

Also, why is the sequence looped thrice?

>>24059231
>wide shot of the fleet firing anti-air missiles
If you mean the ships, then those aren't missiles. Those are Windams taking off vertically. The missiles hitting the Zakus are the same exact missiles Windams carry on their wings. Which means Windams shot down Zakus.

>>24059224
If the M1s were winning then there would be no need to retreat and run away like they were doing

>>24059228
>it's clear the Ginns are winning the overall battle and the 3 ships alliance are in danger

Again most of the Ginn's are destroyed and the Zaft flagship is sunk while the TSA escape. They won that fight, and they only seem to lose a single Astray.

File: 99935671587844.jpg (1.16 MB, 640x6240)

1.16 MB JPG

>>24059240
Then why don't we see the missiles being fired from their hardpoints? Why don't we see contrails from them?
I don't even think it's incompetence. What's with the constant bullshit obfuscation of having a clear kill from a Windam that people like you have to go around pointing out cuts in animation sequences which ~~IMPLY~~ one was able to shoot down a descending ZAKU with a lucky missile shot, rather than a rifle or saber cut? It's obvious in hindsight how much Fukuda dislikes the Earth Alliance.
And yet, it still somehow the EA still exists in the movie, because "its not gundam if it doesn't have a federation type" or something like that, since SEED never moves too far from the original template.

>>24059274
>>24059265
You are forgetting that this was a three-way fight. They were facing against both the Dominion with its three tricked-out Gundams and Rau's fleet. Trying to stay and fight (especially with Kira freaked out) was a bad idea.

>>24059265
They had to retreat to get away from the Dominion and the Druggies. Zaft was just in the way of that. Had EA not been there and the TSA and Zaft forces fought it out TSA would have won easily since they badly outgunned the Zaft squad. Freedom and Justice could have soloed it without Druggie interference.

>>24059280
The Dominion and the Boosted Men were the real problem because they tied up AA and the Freedom and Justice. If it was just TSA vs Zaft it would have been a shitstomp in TSA's favor. Freedom alone took out 20 Ginn's in 15 seconds, effortlessly overpowered Duel and two shot Rau in a machine better than the one he was currently using. Justice could do the same thing. And that's ignoring the Buster and the M1's plus the actual ships themselves.

>>24059289
was this the fight where kusanagi conveniently got tangled up in the giant fiber strands coming off a piece of colony hull wreckage? or the battle before\after?

File: 1692297170181.jpg (1.97 MB, 1280x3600)

1.97 MB JPG

>>24059302 >>24059345

>>24059289
They could've killed at least one of the Boosted Men right then and there, hadn't Athrun been obviously jobbing. Why couldn't the top CE ace swung the beam saber he had already deployed to kill that worthless asshole once and for all?

>>24059294
No the second one when Kusanagi was free and destroyed Rau's flagship

>>24059295
I mean there's like at least 6 times they have the chance to kill one of those guys and don't take it.

>>24059302
they basically don't know how to do interesting battle choreagraphy and storyboarding without weird pauses

in older shows the enemies would just be more competent and instinctively defend themselves or retreat if it started getting really bad instead of just standing there waiting to get killed after getting knocked off balanced or stunned

File: Biological CPUs.jpg (830 KB, 704x2640)

830 KB JPG

>>24059319
It also helps to actually write the characters and give them motivations, instead of them literally being "throwaway baddies for the good guys to fight against". The Biological CPUs/"Boosted Men" are one of the things I dislike the most about SEED, mainly because it reveals how awful the writing is.

See, Fukuda and Morosawa noticed that, from Zeta onwards, there are these characters in Gundam that were created as living weapons, humans that only exist for war, but they failed to understand WHY beyond the "crazy antagonist" part. SEED doesn't comment on the tragic inhumanity of this situation in the way Tomino and other writers did with the Cyber-Newtypes in Zeta and X.
Destiny is marginally better when it reveals the experiments conducted on the Extended, plus some characterization on Stella, but only marginally.

>>24059295
We both know that Gundams with phase shift armor requires multiple beam blasts to destroy. Even Providence blasted Freedom Gundam directly in the chest but only the outer armor was blown off. It didn't even damage the cockpit.

Athrun didn't have enough time to take out Calamity, and he was worried about protecting Kira and stopping the boosted men from attacking the fleet. He was doing like 5 things at once.

File: Kidou Senshi Gundam SEED (...).jpg (1.1 MB, 1920x1080)

1.1 MB JPG

>>24059359 >>24059392

>>24059345
Beam sabers are one-hit kills against everything in the CE. Athrun has his deployed before moving to block the beam blast. It was a matter of swinging his arm and melt that fucking asshole right then and there.

>>24059353
Beam sabers still take several moments to melt through thicker parts of the armor. Even your own scene gave Shura enough time to monologue out loud before dying. You keep forgetting that Athrun is fighting against 3 opponents. He needs to keep moving. If he stops, then the other 2 druggies will circle around and shoot him from behind.

>>24059359
>Beam sabers still take several moments to melt through thicker parts of the armor
Then bury the fucking saber and bug out, like Kira did with Providence. He had a clear opening, with the saber drawn, and disengaged immediately after blocking.

>>24059359
it would have been worth it

>>24059364
Beam sabers are expensive. Athrun knows their value since he's an expert with them and wouldn't have done that. I bet he was praised when he returned to the ship with all of his beam sabers. Kira was probably scolded for losing parts.

>>24059370
Okay, now you're pulling the board's leg.

File: 1771646690757.jpg (237 KB, 1280x720)

237 KB JPG

>>24059379 >>24059392 >>24059429

>>24059364
Calamity was damaged but not immobile. If Athrun went for a kill shot it is likely Calamity would have blocked it. Just like he did against Perfect Strike.

>>24059375
>If Athrun went for a kill shot it is likely Calamity would have blocked it. Just like he did against Perfect Strike.
Does that excuse not even attempting to take the swing and end that fucker's rampage once and for all? They knew they were dangerous opponents.

>>24059364
>>24059353
>>24059375
>>24059379
If it was Shinn piloting then Shinn would have absolutely gone for it and dived face first for a stab. Dude is hot blooded. But Athrun is too methodical and analytical. He likes to analyze the situation and slowly break apart his enemies.

>>24059345
Yzak destroyed Forbidden with a single saber stab and destroyed Raider with a single cannon blast. It doesn't take much to destroy a suit in CE with beam weaponry. Kira just got lucky that time.

>>24059375
still a million times better than "stand still, nothing happened"

see what happens when they bring 20 years newer studio talent into the mix?

File: red phase shift is also s(...).webm (2.74 MB, 960x540)

2.74 MB WEBM

>>24059464

>>24059359
rewatch the show, speedwatcher

>>24059370
>>24059392
You’re annoying.

>>24059437
>>24059359

It really depends on the scene. Sometimes sabers slice straight through instantly like with Freedom chopping up Savior and Chaos, sometimes they take a bit like Strike slashing Duel and only getting a minor hole he had to stab with the knife to do any serious damage. Sometimes a suit gets immediately blown up with one rifle shot and sometimes Freedom takes multiple shots to the chest and only gets damage to it's vents.

File: Capture.jpg (24 KB, 1084x118)

24 KB JPG

>>24059464
why, it's almost as if they don't give a shit about keeping the technology consistent, and they write the plot for maximum drama based on their feelings

>>24051182
>Every single problem Destiny had comes from SEED
Now that's just bullshit. Seed has it's own set of problems but destiny warped every character into a parody and even more poorly aped zeta plotlines. Kira becoming jesus yamato the plot device was terrible, Cagalli becoming useless victim at the beginning of the series was terrible, and the Shinn / Stella psycho gundam ripoff was mangled by terrible acting and writing.

I'll give you that the suit designs were mostly uglified rehashes (except the destiny, that was the only good new design in the whole show).

>>24050808
beam memes