Is it actually possible for a pacifist main character to be written well or is any protag who takes the pacifist route fundamentally doomed to drag down their entire show and turn the narrative into a complete trainwreck, no matter how decent the surrounding plot might be?
>>24048673Loran. The thread can end here.
>>24048673Sure. Just make a pacifist who would rather protect his teammates and not his enemies and who's action led to the death of said teammate.
>>24048673Depends on context. There are some mecha shows where it would make absolutely no sense for the protagonist to kill people, like Build Fighters. Or even something like Patlabor for example. Cops aren't supposed to kill people unless absolutely necessary. In terms of shows that do have a war, Macross 7 did it well. Protagonist is a singer, not a soldier, doesn't like killing people because it means they can't listen to his song, but doesn't get in the way of the soldiers either
>>24048673War stories always end up glorifying war one way or the other, so no, a pacifist main character can't work in such a story.
>>24048673There are lots of ways of doing it wrong. Kira, for example, was only actually capable of doing it in Seed because he was gifted a god-weapon that could somehow incapacitate a half-dozen mobile suits at the same time without killing the pilot inside. Kio shit the bed with it because he was trying to force-feed his ideology to everyone when the show had already proven time and again that the Vagan were beyond saving. Banagher was probably the least badly executed version because he still ends up killing people here and there and he executed his pacifism one target at a time rather than disarming entire groups of mobile suits in one fell swoop (at least before he went full crystallization).I guess it depends on how much effort the show puts into actually illustrating the difficulty of not killing your opponents; in other words, how much the audience has to suspend their disbelief. The way that Banagher disarms his opponents is mostly believable (physically smashing their thrusters so that they fall into the ocean below, hit their entire fucking mobile suit with a huge-ass propellant tank, winging them with a bazooka shot that takes off an arm), moreso since the Unicorn does grant him the ability to fine-tune its movements as if it were his own body, which makes targeting non-vital areas easier. Kira just blasting everyone from very long range yet somehow not landing a lethal shot really stretches the imagination. Kio being able to block attacks with the C-Funnels is believable, but the issue here lies more with the story itself bending over backwards to serve him rather than it being an issue of his capabilities.For a pacifist protagonist to work, it takes more than just the strength of the protagonist, the whole setting has to be written in such a way to make it possible, and in a way that feels believable.
>AHHHH NOOOO I WANNA RIDE RHE ROBOT AND KILL EVERYONE WHY ISN'T THE LITTLE KID PROTAGONIST IN THE LITTLE KID CARTOON FOR LITTLE KIDS A FUCKING TWISTED BLOODY PSYCHOPATH KILLING EVERYTHING LIKE MY MEEMAW TOLD ME HE DID IN KOREA????? AHHHHH I'M GOING FUCKING INSANE HELP ME UNCLE SAM
>24048694Oh hey the schizo is back. Hope your week was fulfilling. Please don’t enshitten this thread like the last one
>>24048726I like it in G Gundam where not killing your opponent is written into the rules of the entire tournament. It's a deadly sport, but it's also there for entertainment. I don't know, maybe I'm just dumb.
>>24048752And yet Domon murders CIA Spooks in ep 2
>>24048673It worked in Trigun and it worked in Kenshin but it tanked Vinland Saga and it tanked AGE and it made Kira so fucking unlikeable in Destiny I was outright rooting for the whiny loser working for Emperor Gattica
>>24048741Stop defending the Vagan sympathiser.
>>24048726Another thing is that Kira was willing to kill if he feels he has to like Rau, Stella, Durandal, and Orphee. He also never tries to force his allies to not kill. In fact, I believe in Freedom, Shinn does try to adopt Kira's style but it doesn't work for him, so when he gets Destiny Spec. II he goes back to his old style of killing everything that gets in his way.
>>24048691Loran worked because the kind of conflict in Turn A was very different from most other gundam conflicts. Shit was precarious as hell but there was very little open war. Most of the conflict was trying to prevent such a thing and dealing with the insurgents who were kicking the bee hive.
>>24048830Does anyone try to force their allies not to kill? I dont even think Banagher went that far
>>24048830people will claim this is non-lethal and as careful as gently laying a baby to sleep
>>24049052Kio blocks shots by his allies that would kill his enemies. He doesn't extend the same courtesy to blocking shots by his enemies that would kill his allies, several of whom die.
>>24048673Yes. We have examples like Shiro, Loran and Kio. Also Vash.
>>24048673>albanian>is retardedIt’s True to Life tho?!
>>24049128Actual lie but I feel like this is one of the two dudes from last time so please leave
I love lying about shows like AGE or X because nobody will actually care enough to go double check
What the hell is Kio's whole deal? Seems like no one can agree on what it is other than him wanting to save Vagans.
>>24049196He lived among them for a few months and saw it actually sucks to be them all the time. So he’s still fighting them but doing so by trying to spare their cockpits, something he can barely pull off with the FX. He’s not stopping the fighting, he’s just trying to save as much life as he can while doing so. One time he cut a dragon to like 30 pieces and an Ally shot at its detached cockpit so he blocked it and moved it. This has driven fans mad for 15 years. While this is happening he’s also blocking shots for his team. Unlike Kira who will snipe your camera and gun and give you a chance to leave but Kio is fully destroying every vagan MS he comes across while detaching the heads. He’s not going to save your life, but he’s not going to take it either. A good example is when he’s ambushed by the dumb fuck flying lemon and saved by Seric, he does as Seric asks and goes back to protect the Diva while Seric deals with the lemon. He knows Seric will try to kill lemon man but he does nothing to discourage it.
>>24049196He’s supposed to be a progression of understanding compared to Flit and Asemu. While Flit is full hate and Asemu a middle ground due to meeting amicable Vagans like Zehart, Kio lived with them for like 6 weeks and came to see them as people and not the monsters his grandpa painted them as. Turns out it really sucks living on Mars and it’s actually entirely their crazy leaders fault. When he gets the AGE FX he’s still fighting the war on the Federation side but he’s also trying to go out of his way to fully destroy every vagan MS while sparing the pilots. One time he blocked a shot going at a vagan escape pod but he mostly just cuts them up and blocks for his team. Can’t say it 100% landed but it’s just what shit people make up about him.
>>24048673No. Pacifism when people are trying to kill you is beyond retarded. It can work in a story that isn't about fucking war, but in the middle of one it's just stupid and suicidal without doing backflips to avoid them getting their hands bloody. And doing said backflips degrades any story you are trying to tell.
>>24049270It all started from people misunderstanding Amuro's actions in Zeta Gundam when he disabled mobile suits by shooting their backpacks. The situation in Zeta was a civil war and taking out backpacks really did put mobile suits out of commision in that battle so it's fine. It was never made into a big deal and Kamille's main reaction was damn I wish I was that skilled and the show moved on. Amuro also had no issue killing people. Every show that followed the original trilogy (0079, Zeta, and CCA) lacked the same naunce and would glaze their dogshit pacifism crap. In Wing it was relena and later on it became the MCs of Gundam Seed and Age. It's a shame thst in over 40 years Gundam never moved on from hack directors copying shit from 0079 or Zeta and making them worse
The problem is that every show tries to make their pacifist MS actually succeed, but the only way of doing that is by making them an invincible god who is so overpowered they can afford to toy with their enemies. Which automatically ruins the show. Shiro from 8th MS team is the archetype done right, he tries his best but can't really avoid killing and it fucks him up
>>24049322Zeta also makes a big deal out of how not everyone they're fighting are even the EFF faction they take issue with and many are poorly informed as to what's really going on. Even more than in something like the OYW, there's a real 'there but the grace of god go I' quality to everyone that anyone has to face. Most of their own allies are people that were at one point following orders or at one point even part of the Titans, and it's fully possible anyone could still have that change of heart.>>24049490Ace Combat 8 actually did this really well recently. I won't get into specifics but the choice not to shoot, the choice to shoot and the consequences of both for the person making them are explored pretty well. There's never a sense anyone's being granted a free pass or easy out to facilitate something. I figure it's close enough to mecha to bring up.
it is more than possible but gundam shows are terribly written so look outside of them and you'll probably find some decent pacifist protagonists. >>24048691loran has zero agency in the show and is a completely and utterly uninteresting character, though he does avoid the typical gundam pacifist protagonist issue of not being sanctimonius and hypocritical as he would have to have a personality for that. >>24048703i think there are ways to make a war story that doesn't glorify war but i do agree with the general thrust of your argument that having a pacifist character in a war setting is generally a bad idea.
You can shit on Wing for a lot of things but it objectively had the best portrayal of a pacifist character in the genre, in that she actually learns that pacifism is only theoretical and can't really be practiced unless it is enforced with the threat of violence.
>>24049789I feel a problem is a lot of series that try to do this often make anyone who sides against the protagonist a cartoon villain that wants to kill everyone or a misguided idiot that needs to see that the protagonist is right in order to make them look good. At least that's what the SEED shows do.
>>24049837Except in wing everyone worships her for her juvenile philosophy which makes wing laughable. She's like Lacus with the caveat that at least they didn't have her hand out state of the art mobile suits to the wing boys
>>24048673Hacksaw Ridge exists (and even had to tone down the IRL Desmond Doss' achievements) so it can be done, but yeah, doesn't lend itself well to the conventions of mecha.
>>24049942Which is deeply ironic given the nuances of a certain early 2000's conflict SEED drew inspiration from and intended to critique, only to end up reinforcing that kind of biased worldview when it depicts Brilliant Japanman and his third way interventionist world police clashing against obviously irredeemable and backwards people that need a few corrective beamspams to set right.
>>24048830>>24049052That's because it's asking too much of his allies who have neither the skill nor the overpowered suits to do so other than maybe Athrun, Just because Kira is willing to risk himself more doesn't mean he can ask the same of people who will certainly die if they try it
>>24049128I actually vaguely remember being annoyed by this kind of scene but I can't find it
>>24054902Because you wont. He does it ONCE after he himself disables a Danazine and an ally widly fires a stray shot at its removed cockpit. He then procceds to save both his grandather's and Obright's lives the same way as he destroys dozens of Vagan MS at the same time. I thought he did it more too but I just didnt remember right apparently till I saw this recently https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8EeL7h6GNA
>>24048703It can though.
>>24054318But Athrun doesn't bother to disable his foes. He always goes in for the kill.
>>24060734yea thats a good thing
>>24048673Depends on if it makes sense or not. Pic related, soldiers don't normally have the luxury of sparing their enemies. It's often kill or be killed, and spared foes may come back and try again, and you have to deal with the logistics of handling defeated/surrendering enemies. If you truly want to avoid killing but still have to fight, you need overwhelming power or skill to facilitate sparing foes at all. It works to an extent in SEED because the Freedom is overturned and Kira is the Ultimate Coordinator, but it fails in Wing where Relena learns her country is due to be invaded and she just... lets them conquer it rather than defend the country.And even then in SEED the grunts Kira (nonlethally) blasts away are treated as dead, even if their suit simply lost the main camera or an arm and can still fight. And what of the people in semi-destroyed mobile suits while capital ships are being sunk left and right? Where are they going to go? Or are they doomed to die a slow death of oxygen deprivation in the graveyard of a major battle because there's no way to get back to civilization?
Macrossification is one of the most sickening things to come out of the mecha genre. I really think it's so obvious that this is *not* the kind of thing you should be putting in a war story or the kind of lesson you should be teaching kids that there's no reason to expand upon it; it's just so manifestly moronic. Crazy that so many expensive projects have willfully tanked their stories with this tripe.
>>24060790Macross works fine for Macrossit works much less fine for non-Macross
>>24060790It makes sense as a lesson in the context of "we're using war as a metaphor and just mean you shouldn't consider people from other groups/countries evil", which is presumably why this message got so popular with creators that never participated in a real war (and in an environment where Japanese news barely covered international conflicts) so "war" became some nebulous fantasy idea that only exists because it was the type of story they were writing for. Like Gundam had to have a war because it's Gundam.But, yeah, as an actual natural development of the war premise it's very hard to get it to work. Japan apparently has been at least covering international conflicts more since the Ukraine invasion, so I'd guess we'll won't see this kind of message much less going forward.
>>24060821The idea that the root cause of war is just blind hatred from a handful of boomers in suits is just not correct, and the answer to violence definitely isn't "don't aim for the cockpit." 0079 already did everything SEED thought it was doing, but better. Yeah, you could brush all of this off as a simplified message for the youngsters, but I'm of the opinion that children's media shouldn't be utterly moronic. Let's actually teach them to be patient and forgiving instead of making the otaku equivalent of finger-wagging at Dick Cheney.
>>24060790To be fair, most Macross shows still end with befriending those you can and slaughtering those you can't. You don't have to befriend all the aliens, just be open to it. Especially the hot ones.Macross is also generally more mindful of what it's saying than the shows that seem to try and poorly copy it, or borrow the gist without understanding why it worked.>>24060832That someone really thought they should tell a war story where the protagonist can just opt out of killing because he's that fucking good is insane to me. One part of the horror of fighting is the risk to your own life and those of your friends, the other part is that you might have to take another's. Most people don't feel great about that, it's why so much of a soldier's training is about helping them dehumanise the enemy enough to do it in the moment. Even on the right side of the most just war it's not typically the part of the job people love.Being able to fight without worrying about killing takes away a massive part of the moral burden of engaging in armed conflict at all. Why ever not resort to violence if you can do it without cost? A pacifist can work but you at the very least need to make it a clear significant burden placed on them, and I'm not sure it's really appropriate for an alt-OYW at all. For a person that's not a sociopath, being willing to kill for something is a distinct and interesting state of mind from just being willing to die for it.I'm reminded of the TOS episode where simulations and suicide booths allow two planets to wage constant war because none of the death is paired with destruction, people simply go away and everyone else ignores it. Destruction without death being so readily achievable feels like it should run into the same basic issue.
>>24060784>but it fails in Wing where Relena learns her country is due to be invaded and she just... lets them conquer it rather than defend the country.What the fuck are you talking about? Relena allows Noin's defense force and allows Heero to invite in the refugees as soldiers. The Sanc Kingdom falls because it was overwhelmed by enemies that didn't tire.
>>24060734He literally does Kira’s exact one saber Freedom disable sweep in GSD once his resolve is found but okay keep lying >>24060784You know they do talk about those pilots right? It’s a huge plot point between SEED and Destiny. Kira is even mockingly thanked to his face for sparing their equipment. Also Sanc fell because an army of mobile dolls burned it down despite its ample defense forces RELENA OKAYED that included multiple Taurus and Gundams. Are you stupid?
>>24048673Pacifags are fundamentally retarded because their world view crumbles under any level of scrutiny (presuming the context to be a show oriented around serious human conflict, e.g. AGE, SEED, UC, etc.)It'd be interesting to have a pacifist who develops into not being so much of one, though, due to being confronted with the reality of conflict as a form of human communication.
> pacifist main character > written well
>>24060784Destiny had a really fun idea with recontextualizing the battle of orb, where Kira's pacifism winds up killing Shinn's parents as collateral. I wish the show hadn't bitched out on that premise.
>>24049837I really liked Relena when rewatching as an older person>Hey maybe I should change the mind of the ruling elite through actual diplomacy, not just shoot random soldiers on the battlefield and expect things to change because reasons before self sabotaging
>>24061639He had nothing to do with it what. Are you stupid?
>>24061821>he had nothing to do with it!!!!!!>that's why the stray shot that killed shinn's family happened during kira's fight with the boostedfags>and why shinn blamed kira, specifically, for the deaths of his familyi really dont care what succeeding cuts had to say about that btw
>>24062390we the audience know that kira caused shinn's family to die, but shinn never blamed kira for it, he was down in a ravine looking for a cellphone when his family blew up so shinn never saw who fired the shot. shinn didn't even look into the sky to blame the next thing he saw, he gets picked up by an orb officer while still dazed from the explosion
>>24062403>>24061639On what the show bitched about is Shinn being absolutely right about being mad at Orb and the fucking Atthas for being hypocrites. The shot could've been Kira's or a random Strike Dagger landing on them.
>>24061639careful bwo you're triggering the kiraxisters
>>24062445Apologies. This is the picture I was looking for.
>>24062489What Shinn is saying is correct, but it doesn't change the fact that without Cagalli's Dad the EA would have destroyed the PLANTs and then ZAFT would have destroyed the Earth. Orb really did prevent the mutual genocide.
>>24048673Due to the fact that most pacifist main characters also have to be some kind of underdog, you need crazy loops and gymnastics to make it so that they are somehow at the center of the conflict while also magically not engaging with it and talking people down when they have spent 10+ years doing what they do. That's why people tend to dislike those characters, it's simply unbelievable.However, that doesn't mean it's the only way. That's just what it tends to be because of Japanese ideologies. You can have a main character that is a pacifist at heart and understands the only way is through deterrence or extreme power, so he aims to do that. Or a character that disavows conflict for the sake of conflict/power but not punishment and acts as a judge. Or a character who understands war is war, but incapacitating/overpowering the enemy leaders can push towards giving up, etc. It depends on the setting a lot, like many anons already said, perfectly sniping and incapacitating a suit across the battlefield is completely unbelievable, whereas a pacifist that is NOT at the frontlines working to stop a war behind the scenes that only took lives when confronted with a "kill or be killed" situation is vastly more believable. Gundam just fucking sucks at that because of SEED's cursed heritage.
>>24062541Not to mention, without Kira and the Archangel, Orb would have been destroyed.
>>24062541>without Cagalli's Dad the EA would have destroyed the PLANTs and then ZAFT would have destroyed the EarthThat's a post-fact rationalization. He didn't have any way of knowing that. The Archangel and Kusanagi had planned to lay low on the abandoned zone around L4, not move on and fight.
>>24062556>Not to mention, without Kira and the Archangel, Orb would have been destroyed.Not really. The battle would've progressed in more or less the same way, with Uzumi heroically destroying the mass driver before the EA could capture it. The Archangel's appearance only bought them some time for it and the Kusanagi to escape, as the EA's goal was never to "destroy" Orb, only to get its infrastructure.It's not mentioned in the show itself, but Orb became an EA "protectorate" after the invasion. Meaning, they weren't even occupied when it surrendered.
>>24062560That's not entirely true. They were already talking about stopping the war and once they got to the L4 Athrun took a shuttle and went to Plant to try to get through to his father. The entire reason Kira was in the area to save Eternal when Lacus stole it was because he'd escorted Athrun's shuttle there and was waiting for either a positive response or Athrun making a run for it which he thought Eternal was him doing. So they already had the idea of stopping the war in mind when they left Orb.
>>24062390>and why shinn blamed kira, specifically, for the deaths of his familyShinn blamed Orb. He never saw who fired the shot that killed them because he wasn't looking up and was blown clear and when Freedom appears in episode 23 he says it's the first time he'd ever seen it in person.
>>24061585Athrun also very carefully disables his targets with Savior aside from one Windam he does kill. It's part of the "Athrun sucked in Savior" thing because he's not very good at disabling so he didn't accomplish much in it.
>>24062571>They were already talking about stopping the war.No, they were not. They were cautious about being in complete disadvantage and the risk of having to fight ZAFT at some point. At most, Athrun took the chance to go to PLANT and make a last-ditch effort to talk to his father because he still harbored doubts about what to fight for.In any case, they had no plans or means to "stop the war" until Lacus showed up on the Eternal.>it was because he'd escorted Athrun's shuttle there and was waiting for either a positive response or Athrun making a run for it which he thought Eternal was him doing.Neither Kira or Athrun had any idea of Lacus's plans. In fact, DaCosta tells Athrun that he knocked down one of their own men during his escape/rescue.
>>24062602Anon is right they were talking about how the responsibility Orb entrusted them with was huge and how they probably didn't have a prayer until Athrun mentions people in Plant feel the same way they did about the war and mentions Lacus was being hunted by Zaft. Their plan wasn't just to hide out the rest of the war. They'd already had a big conversation with Uzumi prior to him blowing himself up where he pointed out that Blue Cosmos was in control of EA and Zala had gone full extremist and the war would get out of control soon.>Athrun took the chance to go to PLANT and make a last-ditch effort to talk to his father because he still harbored doubts about what to fight for.He had no doubts, he already said when Mu questioned him that he was completely aligned with their beliefs now. He only wanted to talk to his father one more time to see if he could get through to him and implies during his talk about it with Kira he already has a good idea he's going to be rejected but had to try because he was his father.>Neither Kira or Athrun had any idea of Lacus's plans.This is true, but they did know she was being hunted by Zaft because Athrun told them (and he got a front row seat to it when he met with her before taking the Justice) Kira was hanging out in the area because he didn't want to just leave Athrun there alone and responded to Zaft chasing Eternal because he figured if the were shooting at it he'd probably best help it out.
>>24062632>Anon is right they were talking about how the responsibility Orb entrusted them with was hugeThe responsibility of keeping "Orb's ideals", not entrusting them with ending the war. Your logic makes Uzumi look even more irresponsible than he already was when he killed himself for no reason.Not to mention the fact that, had he tasked Murrue and the others to end the war, it would once again violate Orb's principle of "not intervening in the conflicts of other nations". You're either fully neutral in foreign wars, or aren't; there's no "we'll drop our principle of non-interventionism if we have to save the world" clause there.>They'd already had a big conversation with Uzumi prior to him blowing himself up where he pointed out that Blue Cosmos was in control of EA and Zala had gone full extremist and the war would get out of control soon.And what could they do? Try to intervene in a massive shooting war when they could barely escape from Orb with two (granted, very powerful) ships and a handful of inexperienced pilots? They got ambushed in Mendel and were so overwhelmed they had to escape quickly, with losses and one of their main units critically damaged.Again, they only decided to act and end the war after Lacus showed up with the Eternal, not before that. And the key event was the aftermath of Boaz, when the EA started lobbing nukes at the PLANTs and Athrun did a literal suicide run to stop Genesis.
>>24062552A lot of it is because a.) these shows are written by what we in the west would classify as "leftists" and accordingly b.) they're written as metaphors. For example, the entire set up of the early SEED stuff was a critique on the GWoT from the perspective of bougies halfway across the planet completely divorced from the context of that conflict, and which side is which in the metaphor shifts frequently. Bloody Valentine is a metaphor for 9/11, the Waltfeld arc is a metaphor for the Iraq conflict and occupation, and Kira himself was - according to director statements - inspired by a story he and his wife read about an Iraqi fighting for the Americans in that conflict. Orb's internal conflict was a metaphor for the heated debates in Japan at the time about the prospects of re-armament, and a lot of (more widely outside the context of SEED's storyline and into shows like that in general) the dialogue around the metaphors of war are more so about Japan trying to warn itself against its own past. Regardless of how /pol/brains feel about America's history of conflict and its justifications or lackthereof, the wider cultural perception of Americans in the US has historically been that we were the good guys, and that patriotism and jingoism are good things; as opposed to Japan, which has had the exact opposite cultural perception of itself since WW2. A lot of what's really being said, accordingly, gets lost in translation.This is one of many reasons Tolkien famously stated, to paraphrase, that allegory is the weakest model of literature.
>>24063394>and Kira himself was - according to director statements - inspired by a story he and his wife read about an Iraqi fighting for the Americans in that conflictNo, the metaphor is about Muslim-Americans. See, because Japan is so ethnocentric, the fact that different cultures and religions could coexist in the same country is inconceivable for them.Kira is a "traitor to Coordinators" for fighting in the Earth Alliance in the same way they think of a Muslim American in Iraq for the US Army as a "traitor to the Ummah", without ever considering any other loyalties that might be involved.>Orb's internal conflict was a metaphor for the heated debates in Japan at the time about the prospects of re-armament, Except real Japan isn't neutral by any means, nor are they accepting of people regardless of their origin, so the analogy falls flat on its face.>the wider cultural perception of Americans in the US has historically been that we were the good guys, and that patriotism and jingoism are good things; as opposed to Japan, which has had the exact opposite cultural perception of itself since WW2. Because Japan culturally refuses to accept that they were a brutal colonial power. WWII was just "a war Japan lost and its own population was a victim of the militarists as well", without ever reckoning as to how they're perceived elsewhere in the region.>This is one of many reasons Tolkien famously stated, to paraphrase, that allegory is the weakest model of literature.He should know, as LOTR is not very subtle allegory about WWI and WWII.
>>24063451I read the other day that in LoGH, outside of Reinhard it doesn't seem to think that the people in charge of systems have ideologies. Instead of belief, they're driven by interests. And when you think about it, this is common across popular entertainment in Japan.Very rarely you see a protagonist committed to a cause or an organization. Because of events across the 20th century in Japan (the early Showa era, the left-wing protests and terrorism of the 60s and 70s, the Aum attacks), people there are wary of anyone too committed to a particular cause.In anime, this means that any big organization (especially the one the good guys are supposedly fighting for) necessarily has to be portrayed in a negative light, and your heroes cannot be driven by ideology, but rather more down-to-earth motivations like "protecting my friends!". Yang can't be beholden to the FPA proper, or Amuro to the Federation. Even SV2 in Patlabor is at odds with the Metropolitan Police brass.SEED is at the bottom of this style of writing because it can't even have Kira nominally still fighting for the Earth Alliance. After his turning point, he is explicitly eschewing any commitment to any organization outside his own private beliefs, to which the rest of the Archangel happens to follow later on due to coincidental circumstances. At least shows like the Yamato 2199 sequels keep the pretense of having their cast attached to the UNCF despite its corruption.
>>24063451Metaphors are not 1:1 though, they're biased normative allegories at most. That's the differece between a metaphor and a roman-a-clef/thin allegory.
>>24063507>That's the difference between a metaphor and a roman-a-clef/thin allegory.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUsQXHZFTug
>>24049087He works extremely well as a pacifist character because the Gunsmoke planet is a shit heap out to murder everyone. Everyone there cuts corners and turns to criminality to survive or solve their base problems, Vash clearly sees repeatedly that the only way mankind survives on Gunsmoke is they have to work together always.And he isn't preachy about it, he just agonizes over it if anything because of how he's raised and taught to have those values.
>>24063519And perhaps most importantly of all, he isn't in the middle of a war. The conflicts he is in are all on a much smaller scale.
>>24061639>>24062403>>24062445>Seed>Seed DestinyThose are lazy copypaste of gundam script without a ounce of originalityDon't complain about "pacifist character" in a poorly written excuse to sell gundam overseaIn comparison>Sousei no Gargantiamess about the rescue from pirate can be reasoned, the world is in such a state that killing people and blowing up irreplaceable ships is an escalation, especially since from other nation point of view the Gargantia fleet just acquired a superweapon capable of taking over the worldThe pirate HAD to pressure Gargantian into pushing Ledo awayWhile Gargantian would know they can't afford to send him away, because who know how worse it would be if the naive child soldier joined the pirates?And yes that show politic is childishly optimistic, even if Ridgette is simply the best, she's not an especially good leader.
>>24048673They destroyed age with him.Anime is for kids anyway.
>>24062663>it would once again violate Orb's principle of "not intervening in the conflicts of other nations". You're either fully neutral in foreign wars, or aren't; there's no "we'll drop our principle of non-interventionism if we have to save the world" clause there.Orb doesn't get involved in wars except to protect itself. Stopping the world from being destroyed would count as protecting itself.
>>24049992Nobody worships her philosophy, they simply admire her optimistic spirit. Her philosophy is constantly being tested and even berated by the rest of the cast.In the end they all work together to get the results she wants with more practical methods
>>24063698>Orb doesn't get involved in wars except to protect itself.And what the fuck is COMPASS, then? Their promotion of an "international peacekeeping organization" is violating both the letter and the spirit of their principles by very much intervening in the conflicts of other nations.
>>24064175compass is some vague allegory to idealistic UN peacekeeping efforts. it's not an orb-led initiative other than that they seem to be contributing the most to compass other than ZAFT.>violating both the letter and the spirit of their principles by very much intervening in the conflicts of other nationsideally if you're serving in compass you can't also be under the command of Orb leaders and acting on the interests of orb. "ideally". but if you complain about that then you might as well assume peacekeeping in general is a sham anyway
>>24064185>compass is some vague allegory to idealistic UN peacekeeping efforts. To be fair, it's a not-subtle-at-all reference to Mighty Jack, down to their flagship.>it's not an orb-led initiativeYes, it is. The whole thing was Cagalli's idea.
>>24063487I can't blame Kira here. SEED emphasizes that the war will continue "until all your enemies are destroyed", which clearly set with Kira because he doesn't like to kill. As a Coordinator, he'd be a target for OMNI's extermination efforts. And if he sided with ZAFT his own Natural friends would be targets for extermination too. Under their current rule neither side would accept a peace treaty and would keep fighting until either the PLANTs or the Earth are destroyed, or humanity goes functionally extinct. So it makes sense to me that the guy trapped between two sides would find both factions generally reprehensible and choose his own path, and encourage the people he knows to be reasonable to join him.
>>24064201>And if he sided with ZAFT his own Natural friends would be targets for extermination too.While ZAFT had its share of radicals among the troops, their taste for genocide was basically coming from Zala and his supporters. Compare that to the institutional support that exterminating Coordinators always had in the Earth Alliance, which had Blue Cosmos supporters from the generals to the grunts.
>>24064216While I agree, nobody was willing to stand up to Chairman Zala and his fanaticism until nearly the end, when he started to get more and more extreme with his targets for GENESIS. Most of the ZAFT higher-ups allowed his genocidal plans to continue or just stayed out of his way.
>>24064269To be fair, nobody knew Zala had plans for actual genocide until GENESIS appeared on the stage. Until then, ZAFT's conduction of the war was brutal in parts (as expected of an ethnic conflict), but there wasn't an actual campaign of extermination underway. Contrast to the Earth Alliance, which started the war by firing a nuclear missile at a civilian habitat. SEED Re: shows it was a full salvo, rather than a single missile.
Like I said the anti-war message doesn't work well if everyone who isn't on the hero's side is either a psychopath that wants to kill everyone or a misguided idiot that eventually joins them.
>>24064281Name a single thing wrong with nuking space bugs.
>>24064281>SEED Re: shows it was a full salvo, rather than a single missile.that's more of an outlier than representative of CE because well, that manga got canceled.
>>24064304>that's more of an outlier than representative of CELet's make a quick count:>Bloody Valentine War starts with a nuked civilian colony>first thing Azrael does with the NJC is putting it on nukes so he can destroy the PLANTs: they fire two salvos of nukes, including one after their main base on the moon was glassed>second war has EA launching nukes again.>Djibril sends the Destroy on a rampage against fellow Naturals for not hating Coordinators>Requiem blast obliterates a number of PLANTs, killing about a million people in seconds.>EA personnel, in full standard uniform and markings, still fight for Blue Cosmos even after the second war ended. I'd say it's very representative of the way things are.>that manga got canceled.Because Morosawa passed away and the mangaka joined Ohtagaki's stable.
>>24064201Except there are more coordinators on Earth as citizens of the Federation than in the PLANTs. "Both sides" despite the metaphors at play just means both governments.
>>24064329>Except there are more coordinators on Earth And they live on nations opposed to the Earth Alliance, or neutral places like Scandinavia. Countries of the EA, with elites dominated by Blue Cosmos supporters, barely have Coordinators among their populace.>citizens of the Federation The Earth Alliance is not a government. It's a military pact of various supernations.
>>24064336....no, they live all over the world. A significant number live in North America (Atlantic Federation) and the Eurasian Federation, which composes most of Earth's population. Orb is just "special" because it hasn't outlawed the creation of new 1st generation coordinators and still has a mixed population, as opposed to the PLANTs which are 99.99% coordinator (outside of fringe cases like Rau and Rey who pretend to be coordinators). The main difference between how coordinators are treated in the EA countries vs. Orb is that in Orb they're completely free of discrimination while in the EA countries they live under the equivalent of Jim Crow laws.That doesn't mean the government is going to genocide them for no reason because they're all at war with ZAFT. Otherwise you wouldn't have so many EA coordinators joining the cause.
>>24064396BUTBUTBUTMWUH WAYCISMS
>>24064396>....no, they live all over the world. A significant number live in North America (Atlantic Federation) and the Eurasian Federation, which composes most of Earth's population. Made-up shit. You have no source for that. Nowhere, in any databook, is specified where precisely Coordinators live, outside of their total number (500 million, 440 million of which are on Earth).>while in the EA countries they live under the equivalent of Jim Crow laws.More made-up shit. Cut it out, faggot.>still has a mixed populationOrb had a handful of Coordinators living in the country, but most escaped to the PLANTs after the first war. Even their supposed tolerance is a sham: Yuna is upset about the people seeing Cagalli next to Athrun or Kira, and even someone as high-profile like Erica Simmons keeps her background hidden.>Otherwise you wouldn't have so many EA coordinators joining the cause.Which "EA Coordinators"? Do we see any on the series, other than Kira's short stint for the Atlantic Federation?Apart from the sole exception of Jean Carry, who is pretty much an older Kira-type character, not even side material bothers to add any. Astray has "Combat Coordinators" (brainwashed with drugs to serve Naturals), but none other that we see actually fighting for the EA.
