I'm annoyed that the unambiguous good guys of 0079 have become a punching back for mentally stunted writers to vent about whatever grievances they have with the world. Long live the Earth Federation.
>>24032459>I'm annoyed that the unambiguous good guys of 0079 have become a punching back for mentally stunted writers to vent about whatever grievances they have with the world.Post five examples
>>24032459To be fair even in the original 0079 anime there was a few members that were quite off-putting though most of that is cut out from the film trilogy. Zeon was unambiguously portrayed as villains in the original series, thats a fact
>>24032459>unambiguous good guys of 0079Zeon?
fucking same. shades of gray? sure. corrupt, unlikable members/ totally, adds depthZeon dindu-isms, muh they were the good guys (killed billions)? fuck you>>24032461>he hasn't seen a single post MSG gundam showlmao
>>24032479>killed billionsShouldn't have oppressed spacenoids
>>24032463The worst thing a Feddie ever did in 0079 was act as a spy for Zeon, who as you point out were pure evil, despite a few chivalrous warriors fighting for them. What's striking is how many sympathetic Federation officers exist in the series considering you can basically expect a few completely deranged and self-interested ones in any series after.
>>24032486>oh no i have to pay taxes to the gov>lets genocide!zeeks deserved worse
>>24032496>What's striking is how many sympathetic Federation officersGeneral Revil and Sleggar. Matilda was baiting Amuro "Simp" Ray into being a soldier. Meanwhile Zeon had heroes back to back
>>24032502>muh heroes on the invading, genocidal sideRamba was cool, would have been cooler had he defected and joined the good guys intead
>>24032500>zeeks deserved worse>Expel people to space in terrible conditions>they eventually make it work>rule them as a police state>they want autonomy>refuse and oppress them harder>their pacifist leader dies>the hardline successor declares war and BTFOs youoh no how could that have happened
oh sweet a /ucpol/ thread
>>24032504Nearly every feddie we meet is a piece of trashNearly every zeon soldier we meet is a cool guy. Even the evil ones have a sense of honor
>>24032509still zabi whipped shittersstill fighting for the bad guysstill lost lmao
>>24032505>pacifist leader di-is killed by a psychotic asshole who throws all attempts and diplomacy away for his "muh spacenoids" agendadeservedWORSE
>>24032502Paolo, Woody, and Wakkein too. In other series you might just get one sympathetic one to contrast with how crazy the others are. The narrative was clearly that these guys might be a little flawed, but they still looked very good when faced with absolute evil. But after that many have sought to portray the EF as totally, irredeemably corrupt, which almost reads as if they're saying killing billions is acceptable since the Feddies are just that bad.
>>24032507Spacenoids have their origin in the people expelled from earth. There are decades of resentment against Feddies among spacenoids. Right after Zeon was integrated back into the federation the feddies immediately restarted the mass deportations. They deserved the colony drops
>>24032514You named 5 people max. Lmao
>>24032507SIEG ZEON
>>24032516Yeah, I named every Federation officer who is onscreen long enough to display a personality, zeek freak.
>>24032520JEEG JOHNJEEG JOHN
>>24032520
>>24032532Zeon only lost because Degwin couldn't keep his children in line
>>24032544then he deserved to lose, who the fuck wants the lord emperor of humanity to be a shit dad?
>>24032459>unambiguous good guys of 0079uh, dude
>>24032505That's all bullshit they made up for The Origin.
>>24032505>>24032551Aside from Zeon Deikun's death, I mean.
>>24032551You mean the series created by one of the creators of the original show?
>>24032574Call him by his proper title, character designer and animation director. What else has he written besides the Origin?
>>24032586>What else has he written besides the Origin?Shit tons of manga. Are you seriously going to pretend his entire career is just gundam?
>>24032595Well no, I'm actually asking about it. It's a neutral question.This is a chance to bring up details about what he's done, since people seem willing to shit on the Origin.
>>24032614Go look up his bibliography>people seem willing to shit on the Origin.Complaints amount to muh zeon wank muh char wank
>>24032544>Degwin "Ghiren you are becoming hitler">Ghiren "that is the best compliment I have ever been given">Degwin "that's not a compliment you fucking tard"
>>24032616not wrong
>>24032616it's entertaining zeon/char wank though
>>24032544If my lady Kycilia were supreme commander she would've won and also she definitely would've made me her favourite lieutenant and would give me footjobs as well.
>>24032633That was the cringiest part of MSG. If Tomino had balls he should have called out Hirohito and Tojo
>>24032654Zeon are already enough of an imperial Japan stand-in; that would've been a bit too on the nose.
>>24032654eh, I don't really care which genocidal dictator Ghiren was compared to, the point he was making was more important.
>>24032586>>24032614I can't guarantee this is true since this is all stuff he said in interviews etc. and I guess there's the possibility he's just straight-up lying in retrospect, but he did make some suggestions etc. during the writing/development process of 0079 that ended up playing a pretty big role in how the show would turn out:>suggested Amuro be the MC instead of Bright which was Tomino's (?) original idea>apparently early outlines suggested Garma dying in the 5th episode, Yas felt that was way too fast and that the character should stick around longer>it was Yas's idea that Char should kill Garma (not sure if this is related to the above point or not since I think these points were mentioned in 2 different sources)Also I honestly don't know how much importance to give to this since I don't know how much of the character's backstory/role was already written when Yas did the designs, but Tomino didn't like Yas drawing Char with a mask because he felt it was too much of an anime/manga cliche for the story he wanted to tell. So it seemed like that played a role in the show directly commenting on/explaining why he wears the mask so it wouldn't just seem completely random.There might be more stuff I'm just not aware of but assuming any of the above is true, he ended up having influence on more than just character designs even if that was his official title/role. The same could also probably be said for the different writers/directors too though, since it feels like some Gundam fans attribute literally everything to "Tomino" sometimes as though he personally wrote and animated the entirety of each episode himself. Definitely other people contributed in ways that aren't as commonly recognized.
>>24032680Yeah he definitely has a lot more influence on Gundam than just being the guy in charge of animation, and Tomino is open about how him, Okawara and the scriptwriters were essential to making Gundam a success. Anybody who says otherwise outs themselves as a tourist dipshit who hasn't actually watched any Gundam media but just skimmed a poorly-sourced wiki and thinks they're an expert.>Animage: When deciding on the character design for the protagonist, what sort of image did you have in mind!?>Yasuhiko: Even before Mr Tomino presented his plan for *Gundam*, I had a character in mind whom I’d like to try as the protagonist. That character is the Amuro we know today, but in Mr Tomino’s plan, Bright was the protagonist. It was a bit different from the image of the protagonist I had in mind. In fact, a boy named Amuro, who was one of the supporting characters, was the perfect fit for my vision of the protagonist. So, after much discussion, we ended up promoting Amuro from a supporting role to the lead.
>>24032680>it feels like some Gundam fans attribute literally everything to "Tomino" sometimes as though he personally wrote and animated the entirety of each episode himself.Seriously, people forget the Hajime Yatate part of the "created by" credits. HelI I remember Tomino in an interview mentioning how he was looking for his notes for the first half of Gundam, but realized he left it all to the scriptwriters so he didn't actually have anything written for it. Garma, Matilda, Ramba Ral, Hamon, all are explicitly the creations of scriptwriters Hoshiyama, Araki, Yamamoto and Matsuzaki, but of course so-called Gundam fans wouldn't know anything about that because "Tomino is le genius, all hail Tomino".
>>24032459>Unambiguous good guysPic unrelated btw, anyone who lets the Titans take power isn't good in the slightest.
>>24033018From what I've read from translated sources, the original plan was that the White Base would be the main "mecha" and would be called the Freedom Fortress. This was before mobile suits were a thing and their equivalent would have been more fighter ship like. From what I gather the earliest concept of what would become Gundam was almost a Yamato ripoff since it had been such a huge hit.
>>24033021That was after the devastation of the war and the changed political environment, along with so many spots opening up for corrupt assholes that they'd never otherwise get.
>>24032515correction: the colony drops prove that spacenoids deserved to be deported, they are deranged enough to think it is a proportional response
>>24032496>The worst thing a Feddie ever did in 0079They blew up colonies while fighting Zeon space forces. The Federation routinely used civilian colonies and buildings as shields against Zeon. They had no regard for collateral damage or civilian life Despite the Colony passing the point of no return, the Federation forces decided that the colony could not be allowed to fall on Jaburo. So they decided to use nukes to break apart the colony and let it fall onto multiple cities on Earth. Thus killing billions of people and half the human population on the planet. But Jaburo was saved The Federation broke the neutrality treaty with Side 6 and purposely stored weapons and ships inside Side 6 colonies. Then pretended to be outraged that Zeon would attack a "neutral" colony.The Federation conducted military testing in civilian colonies, endangered civilians, and wanted to use them as a shield. The Federation his troops inside Earth villages and towns. Then used the local town residents as human shields against Zeon because Zeon didn't want to harm the local civilian population. When the local civilians demanded the Fed troops leave and stop using civilians as shields, The Fed troops beat civilians who protested and threatened to kill any civilian who didn't support the Federation troops.The Federation routinely violated ceasefires and attacked Zeon personnel.The Feds purposely sent in mobile suits into zones filled with enemy bombs. The commander hoped the bombs would go off, damage the mobile suit nuclear reactor, and cause a nuclear explosion taking out nearby Zeon occupation forces. The commander said this doesn't violate any treaty since he didn't use a "nuclear weapon". Reactors exploding don't count.The Federation committed war crimes by wearing Zeon uniforms, stealing Zakus, and killing.If we include Unicorn:The Federation blew up colonies and assainated their own politicians.The Federation went into colonies and genocided the civilians.
>>24032459You have failed the test.
>>24033193>If we include UnicornWhy not? You already included Zeonwank from the 08th MS Team, which is not related to the topic at hand (0079) at all.
>>24033193all of these are nothing compared to the war of annihilation launched by Zeon btw
>>24033267>war of annihilationThere was no war of annihilation. The Federation and Zeon destroyed so many colonies in their battles against each other. They are both responsible.
>>24033270>There was no war of annihilationthe state of disingenuous discussion in these threads
Earth federation is nothing but fat corrupt rich officials. It's a good representation of how crappy the world is with the rich elite running everythig. You will never be one of them, stop sucking their dick. I know this is extremely hard to do if you are American or worse lolbertarian
>>24033271If Zeon wanted to destroy everything, they could have EASILY done that. Several Zeon characters literally said they didn't want to rule over ruins
>>24032504I could see Ramba siding with AEUG over Axis had he lived post 0079. Post Zeta though gets tricky. Given how weak and corrupt the Federation were and that Char bailed, he either would have gone into hiding or jumped ship back to Axis to get Side 3’s Freedom secured.
>>24033270No they weren't. Pretty much every source says Zeon unilaterally destroyed the colonies as a way to cripple the Federation's colony garrisons. The most telling is that they nearly annihilated 3 sides moments after randomly declaring war because they were positioned to fire on them before even starting the war.
>>24033300Ramba Ral probably would have retired from being a pilot by the time of CCA. He was already pushing 40 years old during the One Year War. 14 years later? Ramba Ral would be in his 50s during CCA. He probably would have started a family and settled down with his hot blonde waifu Hamon.
>>24033193>zigga types out an essay that boils down to "but but what abou-"Everything in your list, zeon has partaken in,and worse. False flags. Attacking civilians. Exterminating whole colonies. Hurling them at civilians on planetThe zigga recoils, its accusations proof of guilt>>24033281It is not wanting the fat rich bastard, but denying supremacists who will gleefully slaughtet innocents the freedom to carry out their agenda.Glory to earth, death to zeon and its successors
>>24033312>but denying supremacists who will gleefully slaughtet innocents the freedom to carry out their agendaGuess what the "fat rich bastards" do/are.
>>24033312>Hurling them at civilians on planet Zeon aimed the colony at Jaburo to end the war early. Jaburo only holds a few thousand people. Maybe tens of thousands. The Federation decided that Jaburo must never fall. So they repeatedly nuked the falling colony until it broke apart into pieces and rained down across the planet. Half the planet died, but Jaburo was saved.Is the Federation truly worse in this scenario?
>>24033318The Federation military command are total idiots. They saved Jaburo but destroyed all their other bases which allowed Zeon to smoothly invade. They should have allowed Jaburo to take the hit. Other bases would have been saved.
>>24033325why couldn't they divert the colony into Antarctica or the north pole? Hitting ice wouldn't cause massive damage
Everyone is kinda missing the obvious here: the Federation sucked, but it wasn't ACTIVELY murdering over half of humanity under the orders of Space Hitler. Just because they were shitty bureaucrats and have corrupt leaders (all politicians are corrupt anyway) doesn't mean people should chimp out and simp for the guy and his family pining to install themselves as the aristocracy of the new world.Zeon can entirely fucking suck without the Feddies being saints.
>>24033557They did when they Federation blew up the colony and sacrificed billions of people on the planet to save Jaburo. Half the human population of the planet died.
>>24033561You mean the colony full of already dead/about to die people which could not be stopped in descent, only diverted? The one full of victims of zeon?
>>24033566A colony holds a couple hundred thousand people. Billions died on Earth. The Federation didn't care about minimizing the damage. They made the situation much worse
>>24033561Zeon is guilty for the lives inside the colony. The Federation is guilty for the billions dead on earth when they blew up the colony cylinder with nukes.
>>24033570I can't recall any point where a colony was mentioned as having anything less than tens of millions of people.
>the zigger brigade emerges with their deflectionsthen nukes were an attempt to STOP the colony drop. the fact that it was dropped at all falls on the lap of the zeek barbariansthe blood of their fellow spacenoids and the innocents butchered by not only the drop, but the subsequent invasion stain their worthless hands, and no amount of cope can change that
>>24033577Zeek apologia can turn even the most liberal-minded fellows into a pro-Titans hardliner.
>>24033577>then nukes were an attempt to STOP the colony drop.But 0083 literally said you can't stop a colony once it passes the point of no return. You can only redirect it. The nukes made the situation a million times worse.
You guys simply don't understand. if I create a problem for you, it is up to you to handle it gracefully. I am not held responsible for causing it in the first place. Similarly, if I point of one of your flaws, I am free to engage in the same behavior scot-free but you're to blame for the entire thing in the first place.Now leave the thread quietly or be branded a rabid fedfag forever.
>>24033585>>24033577Let me ask you a theoretical question:Bank robbers are sitting inside a bank and have 9 civilian hostages. They demand a helicopter be given to them so they can escape. Police have the bank surrounded.The head police officer decides to plant C4 and blow up the entire city block rather than let the Bank robbers escape. The entire city block is destroyed including the bank itself. Several hundred people are killed. Who is responsible for all these deaths? The bank robbers holding 9 people hostage, or the police officer who blew up the entire city block?
>>24033578The Titans were a good idea, with poor excecution and left in the hands of weak minded fools and traitors.Look what happened after they were dissolved, running like rats into zeek hands.Had the Titans been pure in purpose, not even char would have been able to overcome them. Axis would have never even come close to mother earth.Now THAT is an AU I'd read. Proper Zeek dog hunting
>>24033591>Dude the Feddies should've just let their main base be destroyed and immediately lose the war lmao.If that's a crime, then it's a crime that literally any government ever would be guilty of, so it's irrelevant as a token of its character when compared to any possible alternatives.
>>24033557>Zeon can entirely fucking suck without the Feddies being saints.The Zabis and their genocidal dogma needed to go but the rot left within the Federation never gets answered. AEUG with a living Blex Forer was the absolute best chance for the timeline but Jamitov (a Federation hardliner) fucked it up. Blex + Amuro/Bright with a Char Aznable who doesn't get disillusioned with it all after the events of the Gryps Conflict was the final chance for the Universal Century.
>>24032616Reading the Manga, a lot of the Zeonwank was added by the OVA. Like the accident that starts off that rebellion was an asteroid in the Manga whereas in the OVA they made it an Feddie ship. Also the destruction of Side 2 is more graphic in the Manga (we see corpses spilling out of destroyed colonies compared with the sanitized Musai shooting holes in colonies we see in the OVA).
>>24033021The Titans were opposed by the AEUG, largely made up of Feddies wanting to put an end to their bullshit. Meanwhile how many Zeeks, even the supposed 'good' ones turned against the Zabis? At most they looked at the colony drop, went 'Wow, that shit's messed up' then shrugged their shoulders and went back to fighting to make Space Hitler ruler of the Earth Sphere.
>>24033312Never said Zeon was better. House Ronah was though. Iron Mask had to ruin everything with his bugs.
>>24033641You know, that's a good point. the only time we get a Zeon civil war it's for two tyrant wannabes in ZZ. Where is the mythical good Zeon?
>>24033570>>24033575>>24033561My understanding was that while hundreds of millions died on Earth due to Operation British, the billions who died during the One Week Battle were from hundreds of colonies getting nuked by both the Federation and Zeon amidst the fighting. The whole reason for the conflict was forced emigration to space, and didn't most of the human population live in space as of 0079? I was under the impression that only the wealthy and reduced population of poors still lived on Earth. >>24033267>war of annihilationIf Zeon wanted to annihilate the Earth they could have done a mass colony drop like in Gundam X, though I believe in old lore it was left vague on just how many colonies were dropped. Hell, even when 0080 came out it wasn't even established that it was Australia that got hit. All this aside, while we are talking about a series of animated commercials meant to sell toys & plastic models on a Mongolian basket weaving forum, it does seem odd to me that in later UC it never really seems like a world that's recovering from the largest mass death in human history. The OYW and the One Week Battle in particular are like WW III, IV, and V combined. I wonder if in-universe there's like a million movies and documentaries on Operation British like there are with the IRL holocaust. You'd also think that more superweapons like the Solar Ray or more Colony Lasers would be built. If I were the Federation I'd have reverse engineered Colony Lasers in lunar orbit aimed at Side 3 just waiting for an excuse after the war.
>>24033694Presumably the good people still in charge at the Federation didn’t allow projects like that to get off the ground since they’d be made solely for committing more war crimes.
>>24032459‘Member when G-Quacks the alternate UC timeline all but stated in it’s ending that the best route for UC Humanity is for Zeon to not only get a favorable peace treaty with the Federation but is ruled by Space Hitler and his slightly less psychotic sister for several years? I ‘member.
>>24033585Ironic picture since it was the Federation who built the nuclear Gundam in the picture and broke so many treaties. >>24033694>I was under the impression that only the wealthy and reduced population of poors still lived on Earth. Depending on which Gundam sources you read, the Earth had between 10 to around 16+ billion people. The colonies were originally advertised as a bright new future for humanity, and the government encouraged many people to go to space and start new lives. To have a fresh start and for the Earth to environmentally recover. It worked well at first. But after many years, people started noticing only the poor people and lower class people were being sent to space. The Elites and wealthy, anyone with connections, and a much smaller working class population (Elites still need people to serve them) stayed on Earth. When only about 50% of human population were deported off the planet, the Elites and the Federation government suddenly ended the Colony immigration program. No more people were required to be sent to space. Roughly 6 to 7 billion people stayed on the planet (depending on which databook you read). This outraged the spacenoids who felt they were tricked and lost the right to return to their motherland. They felt like Exiles. This is what sparked the spacenoid revolution. Elites stayed behind instead of honoring their promise that everyone should go to space and Earth needs to environmentally rest.
>>24033709>Presumably the good people still in charge at the Federation didn’t allow projects like that to get off the ground since they’d be made solely for committing more war crimes.Until Unicorn Gundam where we find out they lied to Londo Bell and rebuilt the colony laser. Then used it on their own citizens.
>>24033730I honestly can't believe that Japan finally decided to explore the concept of Alternate One Year scenarios with an anime, but the best of idea they could come up with was Gquxxx (or Gquacks or however it's pronounced). Of all the amazing ideas they could have explored...THIS was the best story they could come up with. I'm shocked.
>the federation is evil>How?>Forcing people to live in space !>Which eps or line from OYW/Z/ZZ/F91/V states that?>.... But the ova/novels/comics/etcIt never happened okNone of the main entries from Tomino ever point to any forced migration or any serious "oppression" by the so called federation before OYW. Ever in Z where federation oppression is happening through titans, the main complain seems to be lack of action from the federation congress akin to people complaining about US Congress hosting dog parade rather doing their jobs.
>>24033798>>Which eps or line from OYW/Z/ZZ/F91/V states that? "For 50 years, the Earth Federation puppet masters have insidiously tightened their control over the space colonies. How many times has the Federation quashed our demands for freedom"- Giren Zabi during 0079"People started living in space as the price they paid for destroying nature. But now that space life is common, people are returning to Earth. But those are only the elite of the Federation. Ordinary citizens aren't permitted to return." - Cecil Fairchild during F91.
>>24033817>first quote is from the subhuman leader of the bad guy faction>second quote is from a story set decades after the scars said subhuman left on the planethmmmm
>>24033778>unishart zeekdamopinion discarded
>>24033776>Ironic Yeah isn't that the point of the post? Also treaties with who? Wasn't the Antarctic treaty with Principality of Zeon as ruled by the dynasty not by the Republic of Zeon as ruled by the people? What treaties today are upheld by one country to a non-existing one?
>>24033840The Granada Treaty which was signed with the Republic of Zeon and re-confirmed the contents of the Antarctic Treaty. Although Delaz is being a little bitch and refuses to say Granada Treaty because he doesn't recognize the Republic of Zeon. He thinks they are a bunch of gutless surrender monkeys
>>24033825so they're consistent about it?you asked for OYW/Z/ZZ/F91/V you got it
>>24033302Zeon didn't annihilate colonies because the Federation was occupying them. They annihilated them to cull the human race and remove the inferior specimens who couldn't let go of the Earth. Gihren spells it out in the original show.
>>24033687Ramba Ral and even he was fine with killing half the human race.
>>24033905I'll point out one critical thing no one seems to mention: After the war started not a single Side surrendered. The Federation forced them to continue fighting or used them to protect their local Federation garrisons and ships. They Federation was literally doing Operation human meat shield to stall Zeon as much as possible.
>>24033817>"For 50 years, the Earth Federation puppet masters have insidiously tightened their control over the space colonies. How many times has the Federation quashed our demands for freedom">"People started living in space as the price they paid for destroying nature. But now that space life is common, people are returning to Earth. But those are only the elite of the Federation. Ordinary citizens aren't permitted to return.the second quote didn't address anything about forced migration but rather tighten immigration control after people started to live in space AND each colony is pretty much its own political entity- I doubt nations on would welcome just rando colony citizens just squatting in earth. And the first quote is also hard to take it at face value as it is from someone who literally saidfederation=democracydemocracy=weaknessWeakness destroys people, Hence federation destroys people (by starting the war due to its weakness)Not to mention the whole Giren quote sounds just like any MUH STATE RIGHT meme. If the federation is any where near as oppressive as some believe, zeon wouldn't get anywhere to even challenge or start a war against the federation. It would be crashed before all that.
>>24034106>If the federation is any where near as oppressive as some believe, zeon wouldn't get anywhere to even challenge or start a war against the federation. It would be crashed before all thatThe Federation thought exactly like you. They thought the Zeon military was nothing and could be crushed if they dared to rebel. The Federation had like 3 times the amount of space warships compared to Zeon. But you don't understand how much the Mobile Suit changed space combat. The Federation was caught completely by surprise. The Zeon Mobile suit was developed in secret and was a huge game changer. A single mobile suit could sink an entire battleship with a few well placed hits. It flipped the space war in favor of Zeon.
>I'm annoyed that the unambiguous good guys of 0079I hope you means people seething at Bright.Earth federations used white base as bait , told they would kill them if they don't follow their command and give a shitty posthumous reward to Jose.All of this said in 079 series, not even the film. Earth federations was always shit , same with Zeon.
>>24032459Whitebased and fedpilled.
>>24032479No, seriously, there are ACTUAL examples of writers letting their frustrations with Japan's political situation affecting their portrayal of events (mostly in manga; Sunrise is a bit more conservative in that regard with their animated works.)...But they aren't the norm. Zeon has *never* been the good guys. At their best, they have been bad guys with a lot of sympathetic elements to their cause, but that doesn't suddenly make the fact that GMs seems to get fucked on-screen a proxy for what the writers want ((because off-screen, Feddie MS tend to win 7-8 times out of ten). They're just establishing the bad guys as a genuine threat, and using their zeal and often their veterancy in addition to that to make sure the viewer knows the situation the good guys are dealing with is not only lethal, but also, much like a lot of political situations IRL; a lot more morally complex than anyone with a "moral compass" is ever going to be comfortable with percieving and digesting...because actually acting on those considerations means you have break from your peers, some of whom may be considering the long-term morality of the situation but similarly can't act on it for the same reasons, and even those are likely few, because that would be a crack in the organization and those are punished severely.Everyone thinks of the colony drop, and they should; that shit was horrifying...but nobody thinks of the events that led to it. To consider those is...weakness, right? Being prepared for the next one is a lot more important that considering and possibly even alleviating the grievances that led to a generation of monsters some of whom see it as the only course of action regardless of morality, right?The status quo is maintained. All is well (for the moment.) A corporate mentality is what keeps the world spinning, after all.
Why is moral ambiguity so difficult for people to understand anymore? You would die watching A Clockwork Orange.
>>24032649Hmmm yes
>>24034311shit example, normies and entire governments freaked the fuck out over this on release too. they were probably bigger fags back then than people are now
What I don't get about Zeeks is that they claim to be all for the environment when their Plan A was to turn the Amazon into a crater.
>>24032513That's origin fan fiction. The actual mainline timeline leaves it ambiguous.
>>24032459>the unambiguous good guys of 0079Bait used to be believable.
>>24037427Not that anon, but if anything Origin is one of the few things where I feel like they DO leave it pretty ambiguous like 0079 did. Or at least compared to other stuff where it's pretty much stated the Zabis definitely did it.Yeah I get that revealing he was assassinated was the original plan for 0079, so maybe it's justified they keep stating or hinting this in later stuff, but I think the ambiguity is literally the most interesting thing about it.
>>24032513>>24032551>>24032553>>24032500>>24032505Don't forget ...>Deal with spacenoid rebellions every few years.>Military spending is ramped up to crazy levels but still can't contain the all rebellions. >Federation goes into debt and the economy is on the brink of collapse due to massive spending. >Suddenly Federation decides to allow a few genocides to succeed because it would mean less mouths to feed. Thus helping them balance their yearly budget. These are supposed to be the good guys?
>>24033641Operation British was supposed to destroy Jaburo, not Sidney. Zeon at the time blamed the feds for intentionally causing human misery just to make the Zabis look back. Also once you (accidentally) commit the worst war crime in history, you have to win, or you die, because you know there's no going back otherwise.
>>24037485Yeah. Launching nuclear missiles repeatedly at a colony that's falling wasn't a good idea. The Feds made the situation 1000% worse. They should have evacuated Jaburo and moved to another base. Like California Base or any of their other dozens of bases.
>>24037485>>24037491I have no idea how people try to make this argument like the full colony impacting the Amazon would've surgically only destroyed the underground base and done absolutely nothing else to Earth or its climate. Sydney wasn't even the result of the full impact at its full original velocity and it was borderline apocalyptic well beyond the direct impact site.There is no responsible way to hurl a fucking colony at Earth, and the EFSF is absolutely right to have tried to the last to stop it.
>>24037494>impacting the Amazon would've surgically only destroyed the underground base and done absolutely nothing else to Earth or its climate.Whatever would have happened to the Amazon would have been better for the human race. Billions died when the colony scattered into many pieces, impacted multiples areas, and caused after effects with massive tsunamis. Half the people on the planet died.>There is no responsible way to hurl a fucking colony at Earth0083 proved you can. They targeted North American farmland. Human life was spared. Also ZZ Gundam showed us a colony drop can be focused to just one city and the surrounding area be fine.
>>24032496There's the soldiers on earth who harass Amuro's mother or whatever and the jackhole officer who takes command from Bright for a while early on (Not Wakkien, another guy)
>>24032496What is this revisionist bullshit? Zeon isn't pure evil. The show constantly shows Zeon rank and file to just be normal people, not pure evil assholes. There are entire episodes and scenes dedicated to just this. That ambiguity and humanizing of the antagonists is one of Gundam's strongest points. Why the fuck are you trying to deny that?
>>24037474>those genocides are perpetrated by wackjob spacenoidsYep, good guys. Trying their best, but cruelty is part of the inferior spacenoid morality
>>24037750Zeon only dropped the colony on Jaburo with plenty of advanced noticed. It was the Federation that caused the Genocide by shattering the colony with nukes instead of letting it fall naturally on its intended target.
>>24037509>Zeon isn't pure evil. The show constantly shows Zeon rank and file to just be normal people, not pure evil assholes. There are entire episodes and scenes dedicated to just this. That ambiguity and humanizing of the antagonists is one of Gundam's strongest points. Why the fuck are you trying to deny that?I think this is kind of a flawed take though, even if I get what Tomino was going for. The moment you have "good guys" fighting for the genocidal side it becomes very easy to romanticize the entire faction and you see a lot of this later on.Even in Tomino's writing there's a surprising lack of generalized hatred for Zeon. And outside of that you get other writers outright going for "honorable Zeon spirit!" type of thing. And this all goes back to the lack of criticism of the "good" Zeon soldiers in the original story.
>>24037986The problem is that it lacks genuine understanding. Zeon has good people that’s fine I like that, but we rarely see the thoughts on how each the other. Then the entire sides gets romanticized losing the plot. Bands of Brothers, Emma, All quiet on the eastern frontThese humanized the opposing side, but in terms of the small people in them. There understandings that these are still armies and job needed done. War in the pocket really did what Tomino wanted but succeeded. As it doesn’t make Zeon noble, it makes Bernie noble.
>>24038001>War in the pocket really did what Tomino wanted but succeeded.Lmao. No. Tomino hated it and doesn't consider it real Gundam.
>>24038013Cause he is some demented art fag. Who thinks in binary, I knew the nigga was trash when he used the Hitler comparison in MSG, unironic modern day crybully shit. At least Tomino was ahead of the curve at that.
>>24038001>>24037986Tomino's stance has always been even if Zeon has good soldiers and people, Zeon will never succeed with ambitious dictator leaders who only care about their personal power. His stance on the Federation is that it's a massively corrupt institution that brings misery and will eventually collapse. That's why he wrote the Federation collapsing in late UC and the Sides converting their colonies into self-sustaining generational vessels and leaving the solar system.
>>24037986>I think this is kind of a flawed take thoughTough. It’s an accurate one, both in Gundam and in real life. Things aren’t that black and white.
>>24038116Gundam is as black and white as Star Wars; the gist of the story is about a ragtag band of heroes taking on pure evil.
>>24038259exacltyrighteous fedchads vs repulsive zeeks
>>24038013The only recorded comment that I've seen is that he thought it was neat but didn't like how the colonies had clear blue skies in most shots.
>>24038289Tomino said the Gundam OVAs and anime he didn't direct are just "borrowing" his Gundam name. They aren't real Gundam. Then Tomino strongly encouraged Sunrise and future anime creators to make new and original anime. He is concerned that Sunrise leans too heavily on Gundam doesn't diversify.
>>24037986>The moment you have "good guys" fighting for the genocidal side it becomes very easy to romanticize the entire faction and you see a lot of this later on.This literally what Feddiefags do.>Even in Tomino's writing there's a surprising lack of generalized hatred for Zeon.cause 'Zeon bad, Federation good' is a braindead fucking notion that comes from people taking in supplementary materials and stuff from other non-Tomino Gundam. Watch the opening narration, both sides are explicitly said to be responsible for half of humanity dying, Whitebase is forced to fight as decoy against Zeon and Kai even comments that the next enemy will be Federation.
>>24032654Zeon are as close as you can get to making Imperial Japan the villains without pissing off all the WW2 veterans who were very much still alive and politically relevant in 1979
>>24038294>I'm allowed to keep rehashing Gundam and making shitty anime that damage the brand (F91, Victory, G-Reco) but nobody else is allowed to make peak fiction (0080, 0083, 00) even though that was never what the contracts saidUh huh.
>>24038305>cause 'Zeon bad, Federation good' is a braindead fucking notion that comes from people taking in supplementary materials and stuff from other non-Tomino Gundam. Watch the opening narration, both sides are explicitly said to be responsible for half of humanity dyingExactly. Tomino even made the Federation the bad guys in the sequel anime Zeta Gundam. The AEUG became the new rebel space group, and Spacenoids were suddenly good guys. He reversed everything.
>>24038328retard
>>24038363Sick of people trying to rehabilitate F91 in particularThat movie fucking sucks and no amount of spinoff material changes that
>>24038289I've seen before that he said this about the skies, but it struck me as a little weird because I could swear early 0079 sometimes seems like it has blue skies when Side 7 is shown. Or at least it doesn't feel like there's much visual indication of them actually being inside a colony except during like extreme distance shots from space.I remember this because on my first watch of 0079 it really confused me, that they're saying it's a colony, and showing it's a colony, but then it seems to have a normal Earth sky when you're actually inside it.Though later in the series I remember you can at least actually see the other side of Side 6 in the sky at night, so that was nice.
>>24038328>even though that was never what the contracts said The contracts Tomino was forced to sign are technically unenforceable and illegal. It's been a major unresolved issue between Tomino and Bandai for decades. Tomino considered taking them to court many times to get the original contracts thrown out and restore his ownership of Gundam.
>>24038377I'm almost positive that the episodes set on Texas Colony had blue skies.
>>24038289One other comment was the children being out during a wartime alert. Tomino thought that school resuming with combat in such close proximity was unrealistic, when a more sensible response should have been to close the school immediately and guide the children to shelters.This would make sense cause the story was written by a Gainaxfag whose otaku generation was removed from the one immediately after WWII.
>>24038259No, it's not, as evidenced by the stuff in >>24037509
>half of humanity wiped out in a week due to repeated nuclear exchanges>war pretty much over, the peace treaty is ready to be signed>guy who got himself captured and his fleet decimated breaks out of jail and announces he's done the math and if they keep throwing bodies at the problem zeon will run out first>this somehow brings morale to an all time high, treaty is torn up and feddies print modified space pods like a RTS player mashing train unit to buy time with bodies>it works, thanks to everyone of note dying and one conscripted child soldier
>>24038864>guy who got himself captured and his fleet decimated breaks out of jail and announces he's done the math and if they keep throwing bodies at the problem zeon will run out first This is what gets me. This guy would be considered a disgrace who didn't go down with his ship and led millions of soldiers to get killed. Not some inspirational hero.
>>24038780It is. I never said the Federation was wholly good; that was not my point, it was that the protagonists are heroic, and the organizations they work within are at least decent enough for them to work some good in the world. Everyone ITT is just talking past each other, that post you quoted took my statement "Zeon is evil" where I clearly meant its cause was unjust due to the rule of the Zabis, and replied with "B-BUT WHAT ABOUT RAMBA RAL!?" Rank retardation. I'll admit I may not have used the phrase "unambiguous good guys" in the OP if I had known that discussions about toy commercials were such serious business.
>>24039035its just funny to watch the zeek cope when you throw the actual, literal canon at them.the fact that the franchise itself ignores it and has a blatant favoritism for zeon is what makes it so easy to farm (you)s
>>24039043>>24039035>>24039032Stop pretending to be multiple people. It's too obvious.
>>24039035>where I clearly meant its cause was unjust due to the rule of the ZabisNo, that was not clear. Saying Zeon was pure evil, in particular in response to "Zeon was unambiguously portrayed as villains in the original series, thats a fact" does not at all sound like saying specially the Zabi regime was unjust. >and replied with "B-BUT WHAT ABOUT RAMBA RAL!?" Rank retardation.No, I didn't. The Zeon rank-and-file being normal and/or decent people is a constant element throughout most of the show. I'm not talking about "the good ones," I'm talking about almost fucking all of them. It is not retardation to acknowledge a point the show is making; if anything it's retardation to insist that it's not doing so. >I'll admit I may not have used the phrase "unambiguous good guys" in the OP if I had known that discussions about toy commercials were such serious business.Who would have thought mecha would be serious business on the board about mecha? That's just wild.
>>24039035kys faggot
Based on what I saw in later anime, I wonder if Zeon would have been better off winning the war or at least securing a large amount of territory. Federation politicians ran the Federation in the ground numerous times. Zeon's only issue is succession. They never have a designated heir which leads to constant infighting. That can be solved with proper royal governance. Do what Royalty normally does on Earth and it would solve most issues.
>>24039373Even if there was a heir, what stops them from simply killing the heir and assuming control at an opportune time?
>>24039410The same thing that stops Royals from killing each other in places like the UK and Europe. Legitimacy and Backing. You need an actual claim to the throne for people to support you.
>>24039410Nothing. That's what happened during Zeta when the Federation split apart and started killing each other.
Shocking: the “both sides bad” franchise portrays both sides as bad.
>>24039373>They never have a designated heirIt's really funny because they actually do, but he is a retarded asshole.
>>24038994Because the speech he gave wasn't just "throw bodies at the problem", it was "do you really want to let these tired, insane madmen win? cause I sure don't!">Fellow Earth Federation citizens! Fellow survivors! I appeal to you all. Zeon is exhausted! It is low on troops! Low on ships, weapons, and even ammunition! Why then, I ask you, should we surrender? Dear fellow citizens, our true enemy is no longer Zeon, but our own weak-kneed civilian leaders. Hiding behind some notion of "absolute democracy", they are reduced to absolute indecision. Why should we, the survivors of this horrible war, entrust them with the power to make decisions for us!?>How can we forget the arrogance of Degwin Sodo Zabi, when he usurped power in Zeon? He claimed that the people of Zeon are a "chosen people". That we of the Earth Federation are hidebound by archaic ways of thinking, and incapable of realizing the new potential for an expanded human consciousness in outer space. That there is no need for the people of Zeon to obey an "Earth Federation" run by out-modeled human relics! Well, fellow citizens, even though I am a member of our armed forces, I have to admit that if Degwin was referring to our corrupt Earth Federation bureaucrats, he was correct.>But, fellow citizens, we must not be deceived by Degwin Zabi simply because part of what he says is true. Zeon may be the Side farthest away from Earth, but that is no reason to believe its leader's prattle about communing with the universe!1/3
>>24039702>Degwin Zabi must not be allowed to justify his vision of Zeon because of corruption in one part of our Federation. His words are dogma, the dogma of a man plotting a dynasty of Zabi dictators on Zeon. Even if we do the unthinkable, and recognize the existence of the Zeon dictatorship, that in no sense means we must also sink to our knees before it! The Earth Federation is a government, founded on the premise of sovereign individual rights. Mankind, furthermore, was able to advance into outer space as a result of the Federation government, which is itself a crystallization of all mankind’s accumulated knowledge and experience.>Now, Degwin’s son, Gihren Zabi, says it is the weak and inept Earth Federation itself that must be destroyed! Well, let him go ahead and try. Strike at the heart of our weakness! But what right does he - who slaughtered four billion innocent people - have to strike such a righteous pose?>Gihren Zabi tells us that mankind has violated the laws of nature by reproducing more than any other species. He tells us that mankind’s population growth must be managed, because mankind must learn to inhabit the universe in harmony with nature. He tells us that the death of four billion people was merely expiation for our past sins against nature.>Is Gihren mad? What does he possibly think the human race - an entire species - could gain from exterminating itself?! There is nothing to gain! No! Gihren is a despot trying to exterminate the very source of life that has supported and nurtured him. We, of the Federation, shall never comprehend the monstrosity of his actions.2/3
>>24039703>And now Gihren threatens to crash Luna II onto Earth unless we surrender to him. What basis does he have for his demand?! Is he in possession of some sort of absolute truth? No! He possesses nothing more than his own demented dogma. Is the entire Federation completely enfeebled, corrupt, and degenerate? Again, the answer is no. Many good, capable citizens have fought bravely against the threat from Zeon, and we are still strong and alive!! So, then, does Zeon actually possess an overwhelming military superiority over the Federation? Again, the answer is NO!>Fellow citizens! Listen to what I say! Gihren’s threats are a mere bluff. Unworthy as I am of my good fortune, I was captured rather than killed by Zeon forces, and thus was afforded the opportunity to see the Zeon nation first-hand. I therefore can assure you that the people of Zeon are exhausted, and there is no way they can possibly strengthen their forces enough to carry out their threats. So I say to you, Gihren Zabi, if you think you can send Luna II crashing to Earth, well then, go ahead and try!>Zeon’s strength was expended in the Battle of Loum. There is no way they can create soldiers overnight, and Gihren Zabi knows it. I therefore appeal to all the citizens of the Earth Federation, to each and every one of you. Zeon is exhausted! Now is not the time for us to kneel before Zeon. It is time for us to rise! Now, more than ever, is our chance to defeat Zeon! 3/3(From Book #1 of the Mobile Suit Gundam novelization by Yoshiyuki Tomino)
>>24039703>who slaughtered four billion innocent people - have to strike such a righteous pose?Man, this is the thing. It's insane how this is barely brought up. Even the Titans at least tried to hide what they were doing, which is why Quattro's speech had a big impact..
>>24039373>Based on what I saw in later anime, I wonder if Zeon would have been better off winning the war or at least securing a large amount of territory.Based on general history Governments, no matter the form, had a hard time running nations that span across distance that they can't communicate in proper timeIf a solely democratic institution like the earth federation can't control the general state of affairs by democratic process even before OWY that led to the war, nothing will stop ambitious people from attempting control against zeon from other side of the know universe
>>24039702>Because the speech he gave wasn't just "throw bodies at the problem", it was "do you really want to let these tired, insane madmen win? cause I sure don't!" The speech doesn't really work when 8 to 9 billion people (half of humanity) is already dead.The speech would work BEFORE all that death. It's a rallying speech. But does not have the same effect afterwards.
>>24039735It works because it's not just a rallying cry against Zeon, it's one against Gihren. Revell blames him for the deaths of four billion people, and his call to not let him get away with it resonates with the rest of the Earth Federation. He's the most evil man in history and has killed more people than anyone else, he (and by proxy the Zeon forces he commands) cannot be allowed to live.
>>24037496Are you real?
>>24039735This speech was given in January of the one year war, after one week of fighting humanity had been cut down to half its size and the federation had no answer to the mobile suit problem. The Gundam isn't set to show its face for 8 months.
>>24039786You clearly didn't watch 0083 and ZZ. Colony drops can be precision strikes.
>>24039970Are you really?
>>24039988In English please.
>>24038377The side 6 scene with Amuro meeting Lalah also showed a downcast raining sky.
i always laugh at these retarded LARP/ERP-tier threads of people pretending like there's any depth to the conflict of UC gundam. the show itself basically portrays zeon as completely in the wrong, or at the very best they took things way too far by killing half of humanity in a hissy fit even if their original leaders may have had noble intentions. gundam is not deep, but the average ironic weeb like 99% of you faggots feels like you need to have depth in a cartoon to justify it, when it's just a hobby and you're allowed to enjoy something as light entertainment.
>>24040777>the show itself basically portrays zeon as completely in the wrong"Completely"? It doesn't.>or at the very best they took things way too far by killing half of humanityThey weren't alone. The Federation killed their fair share in nuclear exchanges with Zeon, using Colonies as human shields, and blowing up the dropping colony which caused massively more damage instead of just hitting Jaburo.
>>24037977Right, because Zeon acquired a colony through totally legitimate means, no genocide involved. And I'm sure they issued a warning to the people of Island Iffish. Oh wait
>>24040935Right because I'm sure the Federation didn't gas any colonies themselves and didn't do any colony drops either. Oh wait how's Zeta Gundam going?
>>24040926>"Completely"? It doesn't.zeon are unambiguously the antagonists throughout the entire series, and then in future series. furthermore the leadership is portrayed as thoroughly irredeemable and having no admirable aspects beyond degwin being semi-reasonable, but then gihren kills his own father and cements zeon as irredeemable. there's no debate to be had, there's no "both sides" or grey morality bullshit. look at their fucking palace, dr. hell in mazinger didn't even have such a garishly evil building and his name is literally "hell". zeon are not meant to be remotely sympathetic at any point. >They weren't alone. The Federation killed their fair share in nuclear exchanges with Zeon, using Colonies as human shields, and blowing up the dropping colony which caused massively more damage instead of just hitting Jaburo.none of this is in the original show aside from them trying to destroy the colony, and to pretend like it was better to let the colony just wipe out half of south america (which has at least 10x the population of australia i might add) rather than attempt to destroy the colony or at least divert it to somewhere less populated is actual retardation and trying too hard to seek depth in a show meant for 13 year olds. gundam isn't deep, and that's fine until pseudointellectuals like yourself spend 20 years making the same shit LARP threads pretending to be "le ebic zeon alpha wolf pilot" and pretending like there's something where there's nothing.
>>24040944>furthermore the leadership is portrayed as thoroughly irredeemable and having no admirable aspects beyond degwinGarma, Kycilia, and Dozle are portrayed with admirable aspects
>>24040944>zeon are unambiguously...That's not what you wrote. Stop shifting the goal post and own your words. >half of south americaHa. At best it would leave a crater where Jaburo was. Colonies can't destroy entire continents. 0083 and ZZ proved that. >which has at least 10x the population of australia i might add)Not in UC Gundam. You also seem to forget half of humanity left the earth and depopulated the planet. South America is a backwater. Which is what the Federation wanted to keep Jaburo away from nearby cities and prying eyes
>>24040941>But the feddies in Zeta did it too!Yeah, they did. By following Zeon's own fucking playbook. And guess what? That screwed them over so bad, that they became unwilling to ever pull that shit again. You know who kept to their genocidal ways? Zeon did
>>24040951>Ha. At best it would leave a crater where Jaburo was. Colonies can't destroy entire continents.The impact of this colony opened a hole in Australia, it's much larger than any of the later colony drops in UC itself for whatever reason, and that wasn't the full colony.
seems like you aspergers-having dipshits are missing the point: there is no grey morality in gundam, zeon are just dr. hell and his merry band of never-do-wells but not purple and/or literal monsters like baron ashura or count brocken. this is because gundam is a show for 13 year olds, and is not meant to display any depth. to pretend otherwise for nearly 50 years now is simply pathetic.
>>24040972there is grey morality in gundam though and the zeon faction isnt as monolithic as dr. hells army nor is the federation purely good but actually quite corrupt
>>24040977dr hell's army isn't monolithic, there's even a few nice kikaiju that don't want to destroy the city and baron ashura fights with brocken all the time. kouji is an asshole towards sayaka at times as well. it's basically the same amount of depth gundam villains and protagonists have, yet no-one is out here larping as dr. hell's kikaiju or justifying them. it's not that deep, neither is gundam. gundam is just mazinger if it wasn't entertaining.
>>24040972incredible you accuse other people of having aspgergers when you yourself are separating things in terms of black and white
>>24040972Are the Hathaway movies for 13 year olds?
>>24040982i'm not the spastic larping as if i'm a fucking inhabitant of UC gundam and arguing "zeon is actually... le GOOD!". there's plenty of great shows with grey morality in this world, in the mecha genre. there's plenty of nuance in actual history as well. gundam does not have any nuance, it's a show for 13 year olds and zeon is basically just as one-note evil as the dinosaur empire in getter, or dr hell as i've been saying. 0079 is fine, but let's not pretend it's better than it is and make up shit, and let's not have another cringeworthy LARP thread like this where people passionately argue retarded bullshit.
>>24040985>and zeon is basically just as one-note evil as the dinosaur empire in getterIs this guy evil? He's a Zeon officer.
>>24040987he's a groomer taking advantage of a kid who's colony he tried to destroy, not sure how you thought this was a compelling argument. i mean, you're a fat discord-using loser who larps as a gundam character and probably wants to molest a young boy too, so i can see why you don't see him as evil, but he is along with all the zeeks in that show. might as well be another mindless kikaiju in dr hells forces.
>>24040956>That screwed them over so bad, that they became unwilling to ever pull that shit again.What are you talking about? The Federation rebuilt the colony laser and fired it on their own citizens.
>>24040994Point taken, I forgot about Unicorn. What happened with the colony laser after that?
>>24040777>they took things way too far by killing half of humanityopinion discarded.
>>24040972>>24040985Do you just roll your eyes and look away from screen whenever Zeon soldiers are shown getting humanised? There's a reason staff specifically avoided the norm of aliens during production of the show and opted for human vs human conflict.
>>24040997Asakura is a turbo-faggot
>>24041005>Point taken, I forgot about Unicorn. What happened with the colony laser after that?It's still there. Bright didn't do anything about it even though he threatened to expose the weapon to the whole world and start a rebellion if they fired the laser. They fired it anyway. They even laughed in his face.
>>24041016there are nice and honourable kikaiju in dr. hell's forces who don't destroy the city, so i guess that means dr. hell is actually also a nuanced villain and deserves the same level of "dr. hell dindu nuffin" shit zeon gets. oh wait, we as human beings obviously recognise that he is the antagonist and no-one spends 40 years larping about being a civilian in the photon labs being like "actually maybe dr hell has a point because photon labs are greedy capitalists who didn't share their chougoukin z with dr hell!" all i'm saying is that zeon are an even less entertaining or fun version of dr hell and should be treated as such. oh, and dr hell and his early cronies are human too, so...
>>24032459They were written from the beginning as both a stand in for LotGH's FPA and the real life UN. Them being anything like the Star Trek Federation or UN Spacey is itself the revision.
>>24040777>>24040944Zeon represents self-determination versus having the space UN ran by the WEF telling you how to run your country from the other side of the solar system. It's the same as the Brotherhood of Nod versus the GDI or Insurrectionists versus the UNSC. Where's the former examples are all purely fictional policies, the latter all carry the baggage of having their origins in a group who has ruffled many peoples' jimmies over the decades of their existence, so watching a fictionalized version of them eat shit provides catharsis.
>>24041051>GDI = based>UNSC =based>UN= cringe2/3 aint bad you cock obsessed chaos seeking zigger lover
>>24041051headcanon and later fanfiction from other authors don't count. in the original show, and even in other tomino gundam shows, zeon are a slightly (and i emphasise slightly based on shit like this >>24040944 and some of the MOTW mobile armours) less comically evil villain faction. it would be better to stop pretending like you have a stake in this and arguing like you're on fictional /pol/, or at the very least do it for a series where there's actual nuance to the villains like dougram or even the show right after 0079, ideon. because the "grey morality" you think exists in gundam doesn't. it's not deep.
>>24041038Wait a second, but the novel LotGH was based on was published in the 80sIf anything LotGH ends up foreshadowing how large international policies like the Federation or FPA eventually break down from a conflict of interest in their constituent parts: the FPA just had the misfortune of doing so before beating its opposition.
>>24033591But that isn't the situation. A better analogy would be replacing the bank robbers with terrorists, them having a giant poison gas bomb, and them demanding the government surrender to them or they will release the gas. Blowing up the block is the moral action in that scenario (not that C4ing a bank would do much to the surrounding buildings let alone the block).
>>24032459>unambiguous good guys of 0079According to who?
>>24046304in the vast majority of animated UC gundam content, even zeekwank garbage like unicorn, the federation are still unambiguously the protagonists or at absolute worst the far lesser of two evils. even in unicorn, the literal char clone's plan is depicted as wrong and while the federation are arseholes the final conflict is still between banana and the leader of the 300th zeon revival faction.
>>24048141One of the reoccuring ideas in UC, deliberate or not, is that everyone having to begrudgingly rally around the Earth Federation to stave off completely genocidal lunatics every few years is kind of helping perpetuate things. So much effort spent and so many lives wasted stopping things from getting wildly worse instead of getting to try and make anything better. Hell AEUG is a pretty clear cut example, they went from being a reformer protest movement to the loyalist side of an internal factional conflict. They wanted to improve the Federation and in the end all they did was preserve its current form by stopping the Titans making it worse or Axis Zeon conquering it.Hathaway having Mafty gun directly for the leadership also feels like an in-universe response to this.
>>24048325yes but that still means that the feds are the unambiguous good guys as there is no justification for zeeks to genocide half of humanity, including other spacenoids.
>>24050210In most specific conflicts they're the better guys. In several I'd hesitate to call them good as such, and I wouldn't exactly say it's the intention of the setting more broadly.Zeon and their successor states are absolutely bad guys, however.
>>24032532Would have been better if they included a GM III and Zaku III
I side with Zeon, just not the original Zeon.
>>24040944Seeing the very 1970s 0079 designs in later Gundam media is always a wild juxtaposition. Like they made the Zeon palace look like something cyber Skeletor would have.
it's not just the cartoon evil palace that dr hell would find too evil, it's everything about zeon. they're designed to be the antagonist, so to say the feds are unambiguously good guys is correct. i mean, in gaogaigar they included a reference to 0079 by making a motw zonder look like a zaku, and it fits seemlessly as a villainous design. zeon were never intended to be sympathetic or have any arguments for what they did, they are unambiguously evil just as the federation is unambiguously the protagonist. hence the 50 years of larping about picking a side is all bullshit headcanon autism and you should really stop pretending gundam is any deeper than any other show intended for children.
>>24051942>you should really stop pretending gundam is any deeper than any other show intended for childrenIf people can pretend this is the case for Avatar the Last Airbender then I can pretend this for Gundam.
>>24051967avatar is better written and does a better job of introducing grey morality. even then, no-one actually does the larp of pretending the fire nation is good or did nothing wrong because everyone realises they're the unambiguous antagonists. zeon are genuinely less sympathetic than the fire nation yet all you worthless faggots who do nothing but watch this terrible franchise do is sit in fucking threads on /m/ and ERP about how "ackshullay zeon did nothing wrong!".
>>24039707The Titans weren't trying to hide what they were doing at all. They broadcast that they would level Hong Kong if the AEUG didn't surrender the Audhumla and that they had Bright Noa's wife and children hostage and were ready to execute them on public radio. The Federation government was completely fine with what they were doing until Jerid almost blew them up by accident which made them realize "Hey maybe these psychos might be too dangerous" and then they pulled the plug on their funding.
>>24038864>>guy who got himself captured and his fleet decimated breaks out of jail and announces he's done the math and if they keep throwing bodies at the problem zeon will run out firstThe hilarious part is that after he does this, Zeon still has enough gas in the tank to take over half the planet before they hit the limits of their capabilities and the tide of the war turns.
>>24052124>does a better job of introducing grey morality>Zuko showing up saying "Hey, I'm a good guy now."Okay, sure.
>>24053243it's sad how you have to make up bullshit to try and prove your point because you are coping about how you've wasted days of your life LARPing as a zeon soldier online, especially when you don't even understand what you are arguing. not only is zuko's eventual turn to aang's side built up by like 50 episodes of story, that is not an example of grey morality.why is this so hard for you to grasp? gundam is not a deep show, and it's very sad to see losers like yourself pretend that "um actually there's like a lot of depth to the conflict!". no there isn't, zeon is run by a guy who gets compared to hitler who gasses colonies for fun and then drops them on earth, all in all killing half of humanity in order to... well there's no strategic or economic goal in doing what they did, and they don't believe in anything, that's the whole point of the show. fanfiction from later authors aside about "muh taxes" or whatever, nothing in the original show paints any depth to either side beyond fed soldiers being kind of dickish and a few zeon soldiers being honourable, but still ultimately portrayed as bad guys fighting for a pure evil faction. you know i've watched all UC gundam stuff except the most recent hathaway movie and i've even read a bunch of the manga and even LNs, and i still couldn't tell you what system of government the EF or zeon even have. zeon is a "principality" but that word is essentially employed to sound cool, because zeon is not a monarchial territory ruled by a prince, considering there's no royal family and degwin is only ever referred to as a "lord" iirc. imagine having this LARP and spending threads upon threads arguing about this shit when the most basic facets of each faction aren't fleshed out in the slightest.
>>24054026This is because the actual political systems of each side don't actually matter. Like watching evangelion and complaining they don't explain much of the behind the scenes details.
>>24054049of course, you're exactly right, but you realise that it only strengthens my argument? zeon are a cartoonishly evil faction and they have no depth beyond "a couple of our characters aren't total psychos but are still bad people" like ramba ral, garma, etc. gundam was never intended to have grey morality, it was never making a comment on how both sides of a conflict can be wrong, it was always a clear black-and-white good guys vs bad guys story. tomino based zeon on imperial japan and germany, both sides that he did not agree with, and tomino doesn't pull his punches in his criticism of imperial japan like many did. he's outspoken in that regard. this is well known. to cite a different franchise, people think the empire in star wars is cool as fuck, and rightfully so. stormtroopers are iconic, darth vader has cool armour, red lightsabers are cool, the sterile black and white aesthetic is awesome. they have a few honourable and decent characters like thrawn and vader eventually redeems himself. but even in shows like andor that do have greyer morality, the empire is umabiguously bad. zeon is like if the empire had even less depth, because even in the movies we get to see how the empire formed and have a few political scenes of showing how the empire is actually run, yet you still don't have 50 years of retarded LARP discussion like this thread of people pretending like the empire did nothing wrong. just admit you think zakus are cool and stop with the autism. you cannot have it both ways. you can't wave away that the actual politics within gundam don't matter while trying to have a stupid LARP discussion about politics within gundam.
Why
>>24054026>>24054054nta, I don't care if you dislike Zeon as long you aren't retarded enough to think Feddies are the 'good guys'.
>>24051826I'm man enough to admit Haman would have me wrapped around her finger. I'm not saying I'd enjoy it, I'm just saying that is what would happen. Okay I'd probably enjoy it.
>>24054203She wouldn't even give you the time of day to step on your dick if you asked.
>>24054134are you genuinely retarded or merely pretending to be?i don't "dislike zeon", they have cool ms designs and a few likeable characters. but they are as shallow as they come in terms of villains, about as one-dimensional as dr. hell from mazinger. whatever depth has been made up for them is retroactive fanfiction. they are not meant to be sympathetic, and they certainly weren't meant to generate the 50 year old LARP bullshit where you have faggots in threads going "le zeg john xDDDD" and talking about taxes and bullshit as a reason why zeon killing half of humanity as stated in the original show is supposedly justifiable. so i'm saying let's just stop these cringe ERP threads now and quit embarassing yourselves by pretending you're in the gundam universe equivalent of /pol/, because you are putting more thought into the worldbuilding of the show than tomino or anyone involved ever did.
>>24054054The problem is that zeta exists and is entirely made up of tomino making a far more overtly condemned faction with few to no redeeming features out of the titans. The titans completely reframe the original series by showing how the federation can produce people just as evil, but without any of the nobility or respect that zeon soldiers could have.There is a very deliberate message in the original series constantly featuring heart of gold episodes for zeon and then zeta casts the titans as pitch-black puppykillers that do evil for absolutely no reason or gain beyond petty tyranny.
>>24054134Too bad. i dislike Zeon and think you are a stupid faggot and it will forever beGM> Zaku
>>24054480the titans are just as cartoonishly evil as zeon, in fact the titans are just zeon wearing black instead of green. they have monoeye suits, their leadership literally believes in the same shit as zeon originally did, they both gas colonies and threaten to drop them, and they both have a few sympathetic characters. rather than the "heart of gold" type characters zeon had, the titans have people who have been misled by the ultra-charismatic scirocco or people who have been literally brainwashed and experimented on to be loyal to the titans. and to top it off, they ally with zeon near the end of the series. zeon is the root of all evil in the gundam franchise, which is fine, but lets not pretend the series has deep political messages and grey morality.
>>24033862>Granada Treatydoesn't say anything about developing nuclear weapons btw
>>24054498No, titans explicitly have no just cause. There's no raison d'etre. They just see an opportunity to expand their power and they take it. This is why tomino condemns them in the narrative and gives them no redeeming features.
>>24054510the zabis are exactly the samebut both use the veneer of moving people into space to excuse their actions, though tbf to zeta there's actual evidence of that in the show, while zeon's ideology is never elaborated upon in 0079. just more evidence that gundam is not deep, and arguing endlessly like you're larping on UC /pol/ makes you a retarded faggot sperg
>>24054510Jamitov was a contolist. Jamitov's plan was just a bizarre one where he'd decimate most of humanity by boosting conflict between Earth and space, thus the Titan's obvious mistreatment of the spacenoids. It was -meant- to create opposition to the Federation.There's just one line from Scirocco in the show about Jamitov's true goal, but Tomino elaborated more in the novel, but it just adds sutff, and kept the basic idea the same as the anime. The novel goes reveals he was very frustrated by the "chosen people's" refusal to leave Earth and also his belief that all humans could gain Newtype powers if they can overcome they narrow mindsets.
>>24054480>federation can produce people just as evil, but without any of the nobility or respect that zeon soldiers could have.This is wrong, Titans has literally the same kind of people on their side, from new pilots who believed in the just claims of the cause to people like Buran who understood what the AEUG actually stood for
>>24054539Don't forget that one of our main characters in Zeta is a former Titan that upon seeing they weren't just assholes but actually awful immediately defected, taking a prisoner and prototype mobile suit with her.
>>24054506But the whole point of Gp02 was to create a mobile suit that could fly to Zeon colonies relatively undetected and fire nukes point blank to wipe out Side 3. Pretty sure that violates the spirit of the treaty. The whole point of the treaty is Peace.
>>24054564yeah, you can't call the cops on them because they haven't done it yet
>>24054564developing a deterrent is not against the treaty, zeek remnants are the ones who actually used it
>>24054564It does, but I'm pretty sure actually using the damn thing is much worse.Many real governments develop and hold onto truly terrible tools they hope to never have to use. If 0083 is getting at anything there it's probably that it's better to simply not make the rod for your own back in the first place.It illustrates that the Earth Federation isn't all sunshine and rainbows, but it's also pretty pointed that it's not them that actually uses it.Shit, later on even the proto-Titans had no actual desire for a colony drop and immediately do everything they can to stop it when they realise the plan's gotten out of hand.A reoccurring theme is people wrongly thinking they can plan and scheme around a little bit of evil without it spiralling out of control.
>>24054570>developing a deterrent is not against the treaty, zeek remnants are the ones who actually used itGp02 is not a deterrent. A deterrent has to be public knowledge the so enemy hesitates. Gp02 was highly classified and (supposedly) a big secret.
>>24054580that's because it wasn't finished yet
>>24054589I really don't see the Federation ever announcing Gp02 to the general public. That suit is going to stay a top secret weapon.
>>24054577Zeon's flaw is that they want to rule and be in control. The Federation's flaw is they don't care about human life and are willing to kill their own civilians and soldiers to acheve victory. Both sides are horrible.
>>24054590the fact that the feds and even side 6 have nuclear warheads is already known to everyone. based on your logic the US and USSR have to send each other collectible trading cards about their nuclear weapons systems for them to become officially recognized as deterrents otherwise what, it's unfair?
>>24054407>zeon killing half of humanity as stated in the original show is supposedly justifiable.yeah you are retarded.
>>24054642the original show states that nearly half of humanity was wiped out by zeon in the opening. if you think there's any justifiable reason for that then you are not just retarded but a retarded sociopath. the whole point of including that is to clearly signal that zeon are bad. there is no moral ambiguity in gundam, zeon are always bad and are never good. just because you've spent 50 years LARPing about the politics in gundam doesn't mean it's deep, it just means you're a fat autistic retard.
>>24054596>the fact that the feds and even side 6 have nuclear warheads is already known to everyone. Every knows each side has nuclear warheads. But Zeon is assuming Minovsky particles will prevent any accurate long range attacks from incoming nuclear ballistic missiles. Thus the current status quo can be maintained. The status quo being ample warning of attacks, Minovsky interference drastically reducing accuracy, and having enough Zeon being able to respond before missiles are launched. During the One Year War, ships had to get dangerously close to fire their nukes and often times wouldn't always hit the target due to Minovsky Particles. Gp02 changes everything because now you can just pack a nuclear warhead into a bazooka, sneak behind enemy lines, and fire point blank AND survive. The Federation completely eliminated the issue of Minovsky particles.
>>24054652>the original show states that nearly half of humanity was wiped out by zeon in the opening. Thats not what the show says. It says half of humanity has died because of the war. Not because of Zeon specifically.
>>24054669considering zeon was gassing colonies and then dropped one of said colonies on earth and completely destroyed one side, it is fair to say zeon is responsible for 90% of humanity being dead. not sure what the point of this ultra-semantic bullshit is. zeon isn't real, they're a cartoonish villain faction in a show for children.
>>24054652No it doesn't, stop embarassing yourself more and actually pay attention to what the story is saying, rather than tunnel vision like a retard from stuff you have heard/read about through supplementary materials and other retarded fans. This is why discussing UC with westerners is such a pain, they have completely different perception of the Earthsphere as compared to what's actually stated and experienced by the characters there.
>>24054672you are a stupid cunt larping faggot and should be in a carer's home for people with autism rather than given unrestricted internet access.
>>24054672>No it doesn't, stop embarassing yourself more and actually pay attention to what the story is sayingyeah the story calls gihren "hitler" and says zeon gasses colonies and drops them on earth, they literally live in a cartoon evil lair as picrel in >>24040944 shows and the zeon leadership basically looks like dr. hell and his cadre but slightly less outlandishly coloured. you're a fucking idiot. >This is why discussing UC with westerners is such a paintouche, westerners are so insecure about enjoying something that is 1. aimed at a demographic younger than them and 2. is from a foreign country that they have to larp and pretend like gundam has the most deep conflicts ever, much like how they watch eva which is ideon and ultraman fanfiction and then have to talk about how deep it is.
In reality side 3 would be raped to death by the angry feddies
>>24054675gihren is not zeon, hitler comparison is to show how far he has gone that head of zabi family is warning him.>says zeon gasses colonies and drops them on earthnever shown on screen.
>>24054690the gassings aren't shown on screen but the colony drop is in the start of every episode to remind you of why zeon is the unambiguous antagonist of the series. and also the zabis are heavily implied to have killed the previous leader of zeon in order to take power and start the war in the first place. there's a reason why char is an anti-hero, even though he's a rival he's redeemed in the end when he kills kycillia. i mean, he's literally redeemed because he's a protagonist in the next series.
>>24054693I'm reminded that the context for the hilter scene is something like"Hey son, have you heard of hitler?""no father""he said and did a lot of shit that your doing""sounds like a great man, father, i will be more like him""No you fucking idiot, he lost the war for his country, don't be a fucking loser"Zeon's like a group of space nazi's that have enough self awareness that they don't want to go full space nazi, except for Gihren, still very much the bad guys but I feel like something apologists are getting confused with is that while there are perfectly normal people in Zeon, the higher ups, the government, the nobility of Zeon, are all evil and need to be stopped.It's like how I hold no hatred towards the Russian people, but I'm not the biggest fan of the Russian Government.
>>24054696To be fair, Degwin was mentally ill and hyper depressed at this point in the story. He can't really assess the situation rationally anymore. Gihren had a great strategy. Bait out the Federation's full force and hit them with Colony Laser until they nothing but space debris. The Colony Laser WAS a really good idea, and a war winning weapon *if* Zeon could finish building it. (Remember the Titans thought the same as Gihren and tried to build their own colony laser too). Degwin was really delusional at this point and just wanted the war to end. Garma's death made him lose all sense. Degwin thought he could magically negotiate a peace treaty, but the reality is that the Federation was never going to accept anything less than total surrender. General Revil and his massive fleet were out for blood.
>>24054693Every episode starts with condemnation of both sides for killing half of humanity. Zabis are bad for hijacking Zeon Zum Deikun's cause for liberation of Spacenoids and growth of humanity into Newtypes. This does not at all mean Earth Federation is good we just follow the perspective of Whitebase who is made to act as their decoy. There's a reason Ai Senshi plays for soldiers and abruptly cuts for higher ups in 2nd film, there are honourable people on both sides but the institutions they serve are not good. Both sides suck, but people froth at the mouth when they hear that and come with>How can you use 'both sides' argument? zeon killed most of humanity! wrong it was both>they gassed coloniesnever shown on screen>they are compared to hitleronly Gihren is, to show how far he is going away in extremity from Zeon and Zabis and foreshadowing his downfallZeta didn't 'suddenly' flip the script and make Federation bad, they already were, their eventual role was telegraphed by Kai. Titans and later Manhunters show how corrupt and rotten the bureaucracy of EFF has always been.
>zeon killing half of humanity as stated in the original show >the original show states that nearly half of humanity was wiped out by zeon in the openingSo is this guy a new schizo or an old one?
>>24054741the fuck does it matter if it's new or old?
>>24032505>Declares warFunny way of saying "gasses a random state that was ON THEIR SIDE and then throws it at the fucking Earth".The colony drop was basically a civilization level "niggers burning their own city down" moment that made every sane person in the setting hate zeon forever, and doomed them to failure. Sure, in an immediate conflict morality doesn't win against bullets, but it has a major impact on your capacity to garner support on a larger time scale. They bet entirely on winning instantly with no backup plan or post-victory plan beyond "hoot like monkeys and dance on graves".
>>24054750lel what fucking obscure PS2 game is this cutscene from?
>>24054741you're still larping like gundam has grey morality. my argument is simple: zeon are unambiguously the antagonists of 0079, zeta, zz, cca, and most shows that feature them. even shows like 0080 and 08th ms team that have more noble zeon characters still have them combatting the protagonists and ultimately doing terrible things. 0080 still has zeon willing to nuke a colony full of civilians and 08th ms team still has aina's brother with space aids creating some ultra mega lazer that destroys mountains. even unicorn, which people call zeekwank, has the literal char clone trying to enact a colonial plan to dominate and exploit earth for the benefit of the colonies. therefore, drop this autistic schizo charade of defending them like they're a political party and you're a citizen of uc gundam. you aren't, you just sound like an autistic 40k faggot who comments "HERESY!!!!" under every video. >>24054754it's from 08th ms team and that's shiro.
>>24054760>you're still larping like gundam has grey morality>you just sound like an autistic 40k faggot who comments "HERESYI'm on your side with zeon being evil, but you're also more than a little confused if you think the imperium is not actually the good guys in 40k.
>>24054750G3 gas doesn't cause people to melt and turn into clayface. It just makes them fall asleep. They don't roll over in pain. Can't these writers get anything right? >>24054760>it's from 08th ms team and that's shiro.In words of Tomino, "Those OVAs are not real Gundam."
>>24054760>0080 still has zeon willing to nuke a colony full of civiliansBecause that colony broke the treaty. They are SUPPOSED to be neutral and not take sides in the war. That's why Zeon honors the agreement and leaves them alone.But I guess you forgot about all those Federation mobile suits inside the colony, a Federation base, a research lab, and a nearby Pegasus class ship full of mobile suits.Civilian colony my ass.>and 08th ms team still has aina's brother with space aids creating some ultra mega lazer that destroys mountains.And we have Federation commanders sending GM mobile suits into battle and bragging about how they don't care if the GM mobile suits get damaged because their mobile suit nuclear reactors can explode in a nuclear fireball and take out nearby Zeon troops anyway. So win win. Who cares about human life! Send those Federation pilots into the meat grinder.>even unicorn, which people call zeekwank, has the literal char clone trying to enact a colonial plan to dominate and exploit earth for the benefit of the colonies. Yeah...the Federation unleashing the Colony Laser and firing on its own civilians is much much much much much worse. But nice try.
>>24054762i don't give a fuck about 40k, it's a garbage setting. yes, the imperium are the protagonists because basically every story and really the entire universe revolves around them (specifically space marines and the emperor). much like how in spite of the federation being flawed, they are the protagonists because every single actual protagonist, even after zeon are gone, is a member of or allied with the earth federation.
>>24054763It's a nightmare sequence, not literal reality.Also, you're retarded if you think any weaponised lethal gas actually reliably works that peacefully.
>>24054765>the larp continuesplease watch a single series aside from gundam and you will realise that you don't need to spend all day larping as [SIEGZEON]xX_theWhiteWolf_Xx for days on end and posting this fanfiction cope garbage. gundam is a show for twelve year olds with a very simplistic and shallow conflict. it influenced other shows to eventually go on and introduce actual grey morality, like dougram, votoms, etc. but 0079 and the rest of early UC gundam, as created by tomino, is as black and white as mazinger, getter robo, or any other show a sperg like yourself would deem "super robot".
>>24054773 (replying to myself)>gundam is a show for twelve year olds with a very simplistic and shallow conflict.this is not a bad thing, by the way. you're allowed to like a show and acknowledge that it's ultimately not that deep. i love mazinger z. i like 0079 just fine, it has a great cast, it's fairly well-written and paced well, and it has really nice animation sequences thanks to itano and yoshinori kanada. it's a good show, but it's not deep and it's not meant to be. legend of galactic heroes is a show where you can argue til the chickens come home over who was ultimately in the right. gundam is not. zeon is meant to be bad and they're portrayed as thoroughly unsympathetic at the top level, hence why degwin and his children all look like they would fit in with dr. hell and his subordinates. and even if you think "oh they have a few noble members!", mazinger also has kikaiju who are nice and noble like picrel and the one that kills itself at the end of the episode after being defeated. we still view dr. hell as thoroughly unsympathetic and irredeemable. no-one is larping as xX_Kikaiju_Xx over thousands of threads saying "actually that one kikaiju that was targeting the nursery was an outlier and actually the photon labs are the real villains because it took boss creating borot to go save them!"
>>24054752>Funny way of saying "gasses a random state that was ON THEIR SIDE and then throws it at the fucking Earth".literally never happens in 0079>every sane person in the setting hate zeon forever, and doomed them to failure.This is so fucking wrong it's not even funny, AEUG (and even fucking Titans) literally forged alliances with them. Char's Neo-Zeon was supported by majority of Spacenoids and they actively helped shield him from Londo Bell.
>>24054765>Civilian colony my ass.Let's be honest here. 0080 is pretty but it's so awful at depicting Federation Mobile Suits that they job harder than unmanned Nemos in Zeta. One Kampfer destroyed the Gray Phantom's entire MS team so Zeon acting like they needed to nuke them to stop the Alex seems laughable.
>>24032505>and BTFOs youZeon loses every time lol
>>24054773>you don't need to spend all day larping as [SIEGZEON]xX_theWhiteWolf_XxI'm not going to entertain this strawman you made up in your head. Every point I made in >>24054765 is valid. Address it or just admit you can't and that I was right.
>>24054906oh yeah then how come kamfper dies
>>24055061you really don't get it, do you? i understand, you pride yourself on being so autistic that you think you're a zeon soldier defending your great fictional nation online. you are a sad larping faggot who has attached his whole identity to a show aimed at children that has some of the most black and white morality in the whole genre. i'm not countering your stupid cope points when in the shows i mentioned, even in spite of zeon being portrayed in a slightly more favourable light, the actions they are taking are clearly considered worse than whatever evil the federation does. the creators are japanese, when they show a side creating wmds that cause mass civilian death and threatening to nuke civilians, they are showing that the side is clearly the antagonist. or are you forgetting that they had nuclear weapons dropped on them in WWII?
>>24054935Real Zeon wouldn't lose.
>>24054731>Every episode starts with condemnation of both sides for killing half of humanity.It's just saying that all those deaths came due to the war from both sides, but the only actual act of genocide on that level shown is Zeon's colony drop over and over. If the Federation had something comparable you'd think it'd have been brought up at some point.Even other sources from the time that went more in depth into it also blamed most of the deaths on Zeon. The Federation is mostly blamed for "defensive" fighting that doesn't actually care about what it's defending, while Zeon is the one advacing and destroying colonies and Earth.>never shown on screenI mean, the alternative is dropping the colony with people alive inside. I guess you could argue it could be a side 3 colony with the population being all Zeon and just moved to other colonies, but that's way too far from Earth.>only Gihren is, to show how far he is going away in extremity from Zeon and Zabis and foreshadowing his downfallGihren is the effective leader of the Zeon forces though. Even before killing his father, he was at the forefront of the war itself.>Titans and later Manhunters show how corrupt I mean, the Manhunters are just ICE, but having an actual terrorist threat to justify their use of force and cruelty. They're nowhere near comparable to Zeon level. The Titans were, but they were also an insane conspiracy aiming to destroy the Federation itself. And the Titans had to do a lot of their actions hidden from sight, with their support being dropped once that was uncovered.Zeon has never been portrayed like this. Their atrocities are known and people just don't care. Heck, you mention the Manhunters as big villains while their enemy is going "yeah, this genocidal madman that attempted to wipe out all of Earth's nature and billions of human lives had a point!". Char's plan should have made any association with his ideals completely toxic. And this is all 100% shown on screen.
>>24061194Going by your logic, then there's no actual evidence that the colony Zeon dropped was full of people. It could have just been an empty colony that Zeon hijacked. Checkmate.
>>24061291why does your carer let you sit online all day and keep posting this utter trite garbage seethe about defending the non-existant honour of a fictional villain faction in a 50 year old show aimed at teenagers? let me spell it out for you; zeon are designed to be villains. degwin and his cronies are slightly less cartoonishly designed than dr. hell, basically only because none of them have purple skin (one had purple hair though). they live in a fucking giant horned skull. throughout the entirety of the franchise, they are unambiguously the antagonists of every conflict they feature in. there's no "grey morality", this is as black and white as it gets. zeon is bad. quit your autistic larping and get a job.
>>24054763> In the words of TominoGelgoog, Z'gok, etc.He willingly green lit Turn-A. You're citing a madman as a sign of authenticity.
>>24061351>let me spell it out for you; zeon are designed to be villains.>there's no "grey morality", this is as black and white as it gets. zeon is bad. Let's ask Tomino shall we?>Tomino: Most war accounts were from the viewpoint of one side. However, when you think about how a battlefield is made up of a few hundred or a few hundred thousand people amassing on each side, if it weren’t for both sides standing up for their justice, such a thing as a battlefield probably wouldn’t even come into existence.>Since most of these stories were written from one standpoint, I felt it would be nice to have a story showing both sides from an overhead angle. And after that it was making the TV series a long one, even though it’s a robot anime. I supposed the war setting would provide a lot of material to depict for both sides, and in Gundam, I aimed to create a story capturing both allies and enemies.>Yoshiyuki Tomino sharing his thoughts on portraying Zeon and the Federation>November 2015Would you look at that! Looks like the creator of Gundam himself doesn't share your views! Why don't you go to the corner and let the adults talk now? *Pats your head*Run along now kiddo
>>24061381>a wall of cope as a responseyes nothing villainous about them living in this shit as a palace >>24040944 . gundam is as childish as mazinger, it's just sad pathetic faggots like yourself who try to elevate it to be some deep masterpiece. there's nothing unique or deep about what it is doing as a television show, the entire mecha genre is predicated upon war is bad and gundam is retreating the same ground yamato set up.
>>24061388Your argument lost all legitimacy when Tomino himself disagrees with you. He's the guy who created Gundam. Time to walk away from this anon. Take the L and walk away with dignity.
>>24061418all your quote says is that tomino wanted to show both perspectives of the war as opposed to just one perspective because most war media only portrays war from one point of view. and he's corect, gundam does portray both sides of the conflict. you see quite a lot of zeon soldiers and their perspectives. it says nothing about the "greyness" of the morality. the fundamental message of gundam, according to tomino himself, is that of anti-war. considering zeon declared the fucking war in the first place and went on the offensive, dropping a colony on earth and being responsible for most of the half of humanity being dead, he portrays them as antagonistic through extremely unsubtle design queues like evil insect looking mobile armours like the zakrello, the fucking palace, dozle looks like a frankenstein monster, kycillia is an old hag, gihren has predator eyes and literally gets compared to hitler, and degwin looks like a classic FUB. if tomino is anti-war, then he simply would not be siding with the aggressor of the conflict. i like how i need to explain your quote to you, because you're too stupid to understand it on your own. and yet you think i should walk away from the argument? how about you walk away from the keyboard and stop larping all over this dying board with cringe uc /pol/ tier slop when the morality in the series could not be any more black and white.
>>24061351>there's no "grey morality", this is as black and white as it getsyou are fucking retarded if you think federation is good, 'grey' morality comes from both sides being bad and normal people like Whitebase crew being stuck in between.
>>24061453the federation isn't perfect but they are the protagonists. the setting could not be more clear about this. true grey morality is something like LOGH where you can genuinely argue until the cows come home about which faction is better, that one genuinely does come down to your own personal beliefs. at the end of the day the evils of the federation pale in comparison to what zeon did, and this is abundantly clear to everyone except for annoying spergs online who feel the need to ERP over this board and pretend like they're defending zeon in-universe, which is 40kfaggot behaviour and deserving of the rope.
>>24061436Yawn. You are out of your depth kiddo>Question: From the very start of Mobile Suit Gundam, it has focused on portraying every facet of the war from both sides of the conflict. Why is that so important to you?>Yoshiyuki Tomino: I wanted to depict war as truthfully and realistically as possible. You always have two, or unfortunately more, sides in war. Neither side can entirely be called the enemy, and neither side can entirely be called an ally. Each side has a little bit of each, and sees the other as the opposite. I had to put that in or it wouldn’t be a realistic portrayal of war. >Yoshiyuki Tomino, February 2020He makes it pretty clear neither side is wholly good or wholly bad. Grey morality.But nice try anon.*Pat pat*Run along now kiddo.
>>24061488firstly, none of this is an indicator of the "grey morality" in gundam. he is simply stating that not everyone in zeon is omega evil and not every feddie is omega good. this is not a novel concept in mecha, mazinger had noble kikaiju and showed negative sides to kouji, boss, sayaka, etc. it's basically the bare minimum. if you had watched a single other mecha show you'd realise this.secondly, this is an interview from 40 years after 0079 aired so whatever he pretends was his original intentions now is irrelevant when the original show clearly designed zeon to look evil. even dr. hell's lair in mazinger is more subtle than the zabi palace and he is literally named dr. hell. there is no discussion to be had, the intention from the get go was to imply zeon are bad. the only people who are upset by this are faggots like you who spend your whole life LARPing as if you live in UC gundam and defending zeon. lastly, you are a tourist from reddit and you can fuck right off of my board you subhuman sperg fuckwit.
>>24040944>which has at least 10x the population of australia i might addDo I need to remind you guys every time that earth is basically a fucking ghost town outside of a few population centres? They're the soviet union, and they've forcibly migrated everyone away from the nice places to the colonies. You can say this only became explicit later but my god the Federation (or as was used at the time if they put it into English, Union) is soviet coded as fuck.
>>24061497ah so zeon killed most people by destroying fellow spacenoid colonies instead of causing a nuclear winter apocalypse on earth, and the supposed "sin" from the federation in nuking the colony which diverted it onto australia is actually way less severe since either way it wasn't going to be nearly as bad as, say, zeon destroying side 5 in the... righteous fight for spacenoid independence... i guess you really proved me wrong.
>>24061512You do realise that if the Federation didn't rush to cram them into fucking space tubes it wouldn't have happened at all?
>>24061526you seem to think i give a shit about some retroactive cope bullshit made up to add "depth" to the lore. and it's also stupid because the whole concept of contolism is to move everyone into space to trigger the birth of newtypes, so if the federation is forcing people into space then zeon should love them. this is why it's so stupid to argue about the fucking morality of gundam, gundam is not morally complex and the conflict is not deep. you faggots only think it is because you engage in cringe ERP threads that hit bump limit arguing about which side was actually in the right. the entire lore is poorly thought out and shallow. which is fine, 0079 is a perfectly fine show on its own and it didn't need to be anything deeper than that. but please spare us, people who actually enjoy mecha and watch shit outside of gundam, another cringeworthy LARP thread where you argue for days about which side was in the right.
>>24061536The central premise of the fucking show is "yo people don't like living in giant space tubes and try to become independent." He didn't create a situation like that by accident or for fun, it's to tell a "yo, war sucks and there are no true good or bad sides, just good and bad people, and what those people do within the system they exist in."This is a message that Japanese children manage to pick up on, you should feel fucking embarrassed.
>>24061540>The central premise of the fucking show is "yo people don't like living in giant space tubes and try to become independent."is this a joke? why bother arguing for half a thread about a show you didn't even watch? i guess this explains how you can go on for threads upon threads about how "le noble zeon warriors dindu nuffin!" because really anything is possible when you haven't watched the show and are just imagining every counterpoint.>you should feel fucking embarrassed.pot, meet kettle. seriously, don't bother replying, as i am not arguing with some sperg who didn't watch the show and is just coming in here to LARP in character as their zeon oc or some such other pathetic bullshit. get lost, you turkey.
>>24037496Brotherman, PART of the colony impacting Sidney at greatly reduced velocity caused a mass extinction that permanently altered the biosphere. Australia is basically a wasteland for the most part already; if the FULL FORCE of the FULL COLONY DROP hit the Amazon, it would have basically been like Second Impact. You're fucking crazy.
>>24061461No the fuck they are not, it's Amuro and Whitebase crew who are protagonists.>at the end of the day the evils of the federation pale in comparison to what zeon didIt does not, cause most of every crime that people claim Zeon to have done exists either in the supplementary material or spinoffs by other people.Zeon higher ups are not good, nobody argues that, but you can't watch the original 0079-Z-ZZ-CCA saga and think that it is somehow pro-Feddie bureaucracy, they are bad too and it's not black and white scenario at all.
>>24061829amuro and the white base are members of the federation, amuro even rejoins the federation after zeon 2.0. >It does not, cause most of every crime that people claim Zeon to have done exists either in the supplementary material or spinoffs by other peopleno, mate, zeon dropping the colony on earth and destroying side 5 is all in the original show. what is all headcanon that was made up by other people was this whole "le feddies actually taxed them too much" and other such nonsense. in the original show, the only real crime of the federation is lower level officers being dicks towards the white base.i think there's a bit of confusion about "grey morality" here. tomino sought to reflect that a lot of zeon's rank and file were decent people on the wrong side of the war, and not all of the feds were crystal clean and nice people. this is because war movies basically display the enemy as a monolithic evil which is completely untrue to real life. tomino acknowledges that the axis powers were ultimately in the wrong and caused atrocities, but the average japanese or nazi soldier was a human being and often a perfectly normal person with a family. likewise, the allies were justified in stopping the atrocities of the axis powers but they were hardly saints like they're made out to be and americans in general are arrogant and boarish even in the lower ranks. wwii is actually more nuanced of a conflict than 0079, the allies did far more horrible shit than the federation ever did and the scale of the atrocities committed by the axis powers also pales in comparison to zeon wiping out half of humanity in a few days, but at the risk of veering off-topic, it's very clear from the story that, while the federation is flawed, they are ultimately the protagonists of the setting and zeon are slightly elevated above motw cartoon villain.
>>24061996>destroying side 5 is all in the original show.Its not. They only say the war caused it.
>>24062015yes and who declared the war and attacked federation-aligned colonies as stated and seen in the original show? or are you trying to suggest the feds did it themselves for no reason
>>24062028It means exactly as the anime said. The war caused it. Both sides are responsible. Colonies caught in the crossfire of two massive space fleets trying to destroy eachother. It's called collateral damage. Everything you said. Your entire argument is built on your lie.
>>24061706>if the FULL FORCE of the FULL COLONY DROP hit the Amazon, it would have basically been like Second ImpactNot according to the colony drops in 0083 and ZZ Gundam. It proves that colonies can be used to precisely hit a specific target. The damage can only be limited to a specific city or area. The entire Earth won't be affected.
>>24061996>amuro and the white base are members of the federation, amuro even rejoins the federation after zeon 2.0.moot point cause one of the point of Gundam is good people stuck working for bad institutions, also they literally joined a resistance movement too. >zeon dropping the colony on earth and destroying side 5 is all in the original show>zeon wiping out half of humanity in a few daysYou are stuck on this but it literally does not happen, in fact both sides are held responsible. That's the basis on which Gundam and OYW is written. It's how the aftermath in Z-ZZ-CCA is written. It's why Zeon is still supported, it's why Federation is also considered bad, it's why Spacenoids support Char dropping Axis on Earth, it's why Mafty is popular, why in-universe people are tolerant of stuff like Zeon, contolism, spacenoids independence and not have such burning hatred for them cause the stupid bullshit like 'killed half of humanity', 'gassing spacenoids' or atrocities on scale that could significantly dwarf Federation's share largely just isn't true. That's not how the shows were written, that's not how characters or world consider it to have happened.
>>24062064It's so fucking dumb how these "Uh the federation is good actually" weirdos act, if you go by the show both sides are shitheads just one is worse at the top, if you bring in supplemental material the Federation respond to a deceleration of independence with "we'll be there to fuck you up... in 20 years once we've figured out how to make space warships again" and if I wanted to bring in some of the books Tomino wrote, OH BOY. It gets worse for the Federation every time. Defending the way the feds handled Zeon is like saying "the soviets were actually totally justified in their response to the 56 Hungarian revolution was actually fine"
>>24062095>You are stuck on this but it literally does not happen, in fact both sides are held responsible. That's the basis on which Gundam and OYW is written. It's how the aftermath in Z-ZZ-CCA is written. Diff anon here. There are even some Gundam manga where the "local Colony government surrenders" , but the Federation garrison (numerous space Salamis ships and ground troops inside the colony) refuse to surrender and leave. They hide inside buildings and fire rockets at Zeon troops entering the colony. Zeon warns them to surrender but they won't. So Zeon is forced to use Zakus to smash entire buildings where Federation troops are bunkering inside.There are some manga that show some Federation Salamis ships trying to use colonies as "shields" against incoming Zeon ships white the Fed ships return fire from cover. The Feds maneuver their ships behind civilian colonies to block incoming Zeon fire even if the colony gets hit in the crossfire. Then the Feds return fire from "cover". Even if the colony gets hit.
>>24033193>They blew up colonies while fighting Zeon space forces.The Feds only blew up one colony in the OYW, and it was the dead one being dropped.>The Federation routinely used civilian colonies and buildings as shields against Zeon. They had no regard for collateral damage or civilian life I remember exactly one time this was depicted, and it was from a severely lore-unfriendly Gundam Ace manga back when those were considered tertiary material at best (technically still are, albeit that's starting to change in recent years...) Every other depiction of the war's start had Zeon destroying colonies on purpose due to them allying with the Federation.>Despite the Colony passing the point of no return, the Federation forces decided that the colony could not be allowed to fall on Jaburo. So they decided to use nukes to break apart the colony and let it fall onto multiple cities on Earth. Thus killing billions of people and half the human population on the planet. But Jaburo was saved They didn't "decide" to do that, it was an effect of their efforts to stop the destroy the colony before it could reach TPONR. They failed to, and the incurred damage resulted in the disaster. You're a breath short of blaming victims, here.>The Federation conducted military testing in civilian colonies, endangered civilians, and wanted to use them as a shield.This is a very poor interpretation of 0080's circumstances, but I guess it fits well enough from a very biased perspective. The real reason the Feds were at Riah is because their neutrality was always a case of bullshitting a murderous despot in the interest of survival and the lagrange point it sits in is closest to where Operation Star One was taking place, and the Alex was built for Amuro specifically.>The Federation routinely violated ceasefires and attacked Zeon personnel.Yes, but both sides did. Zeon is specifically known for it, often called "Zeon Remnants."
>>24033193>The Federation committed war crimes by wearing Zeon uniforms, stealing Zakus, and killing.None of the above are considered war crimes in the current context of Gundam's Universal Century. Hell, I think literally every faction has technically done it one way or another lolThe rest of that is fine, I guess. There are far worse offenses on their ledger that you didn't mention that aren't bullshit, like Jamitov's entire subplot in 0083 and...well, fucking Jamitov and his goons, allowing a colony drop in ZZ specifically as a population control measure, the Laplace Incident, etc.
>>24062107>The Feds only blew up one colony in the OYW#doubt#massivelydoubt
>>24062107>I remember exactly one time this was depicted, and it was from a severely lore-unfriendly Gundam Ace mangaNow I remember; the Shin Matsunaga manga, and that's far from the only BS scene in that shitshow.
>>24062110>None of the above are considered war crimes in the current context of Gundam's Universal Century.Wearing the enemy's uniform is. Faking surrender is.
>>24062107That's not how logic works. If the Federation was involved in a battle where a colony was destroyed, then it shares the blame with Zeon. Every single colony destroyed with the Federation involved means the Federation was also responsible for the colony's destruction. Full stop.
>>24062107>I remember exactly one time this was depictedI didn't realize you read every single Gundam manga and supplemental story in existence.
>>24062064>>24062095you people are genuinely fucking retarded and must have watched a different show. zeon is responsible for the colony drop which killed a significant number of people on earth, so they are directly responsible for a chunk of the number getting to half of humanity. side 5 was allied with the federation and the federation within the original show is not shown to be in the business of killing their own civilians for no reason, so zeon is responsible for at the very least, most of the deaths in those colonies. finally, zeon holds military dominance over the federation for the majority of the war, because the ms revolutionises battle and makes it so easy for zeon to wipe out the federation that they can even invade earth. these are all the context clues you need to deduce that zeon is responsible for a large chunk of the "half of humanity dead". >>24062126this is what we call "victim-blaming" and you're a fucking psychopath if this is what you actually believe. no, the federation wouldn't hold any responsibilty for a zeon strike breaching the colony wall and killing everyone inside as the air escapes. that's all zeons fault, you fucking retard.>b-buh they should have moved people off the colony!!!yeah and the rape victim should have run away or fought back harder to not get raped, so i guess she deserved it? fucking evil, genuinely seek help you fucking faggot.
>>24062117>>24062126Your personal timeline is flawed, and doesn't follow the documented series of events. Even the dickery about Fed Garrisons refusing to leave and using civilians as shields is ridiculous because they barely got the chance to do anything at all. The entire reason Zeon attacked all colonies simultaneously was specifically to prevent said garrisons from mobilizing, and the few that did make it out fucking BOLTED and weren't seen again until January 8th, when the first actual fleet engagement took place (you'll note; long after Zeon destroyed the colonies you're assuming were fighting back.) The rest were wiped out fucking *quick* alongside the colonies they sat in. Zeon wasn't going in those colonies and fighting federation forces holding out; they were too busy shooting the colonies themselves to chunks. January 3rd was almost entirely a one-sided affair, and it isn't until the Federation mobilized a counterattack days later that Zeon started suffering losses, but those colonies were dead by then.>>24062121Only according to the Geneva Conventions, which are no longer law as of U.C. 0079 and may never have been, depending on how closely their pre-U.C. history follows our current day. When it comes to the Antarctic Treaty, the only real consideration of the topic is how Prisoners if War may be treated, specifically that prisoners of war must be treated humanely UNLESS they are captured out of uniform, in which case they forgo this protection and may be treated however you see fit. Operating in enemy uniforms/civvies makes you an unlawful combatant, which only means you aren't protected by any international law but doesn't make you a war criminal.>>24062130I've read a lot of them. I have a lot of free time on my hands, unfortunately. Why do you think I'm so busy arguing with what I suspect might be a samefag?
>>24062146The Federation has a moral obligation to surrender when they know they can't win. Not send its own population into the meat grinder endlessly to delay an obvious defeat. They are lucky Zeon didn't just drop nukes or asteroids from orbit and wipe out all life on Earth.
>>24062152>The Federation has a moral obligation to surrender when they know they can't winOh god don't tell me you're the 'the EFF was wrong to fight the OYW at all and it's bullshit they did and won' guy.
all of this debate misses the whole point anyway, being that gundam is a show for 12 year olds and zeon is obviously shown to be the antagonists in every which way. all you faggots do is inflate the importance of this frankly quite mediocre show from the 70s and pretend like it was deeply revolutionary when it was just a crap rehash of yamato but the gamilans have human skin instead of blue skin. if you watched a single other mecha show you wouldn't be spending your entire lives arguing about which faction was actually right, because it's very clear which is the protagonist and which isn't and this is the case for the whole series. they even make sure the antagonists in zeta coincidentally share the exact same aesthetics as zeon to let you know they're the bad guys, because again this is a show for 12 year olds. just admit it rather than pretend this is some grand important piece of fiction with extreme depth and grey morality.
>>24062160>when it was just a crap rehash of yamatoHoly shit I haven't seen this bait in fucking forever.
>>24062152>The Federation has a moral obligation to surrender when they know they can't winRemind me, how did the OYW end?
>>24062161nice cope seething gundambabby but it wasn't a unique idea plucked from the heavens
>>24062167Yamato and Gundam reach fundamentally different conclusions about the nature of sacrifice and the horrors of war. And I swear to GOD if you bring up the garbage Yamato remakes I will do nothing because we're on an online internet forum and you barely exist to me.
>>24062152True. It's basically what's happening in the Ukraine war. After 5 years of war, The Ukrainians can't win the war. They can only just barely defend. The Ukraine government is literally drafting 60 year old men to serve in the military because they've run out of young men. The Russians still keep coming and will eventually win assuming nothing changes. Even Ukraine's allies in NATO say they can't afford to keep giving Ukraine aid anymore. France is complaining and Germany is complaining. They both want to reduce aid to Ukraine. I remember when this war started, the Europeans said they will keep giving Ukraine aid for as long as it takes for Russia to give up. I guess 5 years is their limit.
>>24062152>>24062170It's him again it's fucking him.
>>24062162>Remind me, how did the OYW end?With Zeon refusing to nuke the planet from orbit.With Zeon leaders killing each other.With the majority of Kycillia's Granada and Degwins Home Defense fleet fully intact (which the Titans later confiscated part of).With Federation officials in manga admitting they didn't actually win the war through strength. That they had no hope of winning and only survived because Zeon leaders killed each other in coups.With 15 years of Zeon remnants causing extra colony drops and asteroid drops and participating in constant wars.
>>24062174You could have just said "with the solar system in a slow burn foreverwar that eventually destroys earth and the colonies fuck off"
>>24062174>With 15 years of Zeon remnants causing extra colony drops and asteroid drops and participating in constant wars.40 years. Don't forget Mars Zeon.
>>24062168when i said crap rehash i meant it was largely inspired by, you can explore the same idea and come to different conclusions but gundam still wouldn't exist without yamato and yamato is a far better show than 0079.
>>24062170Ahh, THAT'S why this your perspective has been oozing with angst this whole time.Eat your fucking cake, already.
>>24062180The only reason "gundam wouldn't exist without yamato" is that people wanted to replicate Yamato's film success and Gundam's rerun ratings made it a great target. Tomino was already doing plenty of similar things to what he did in Gundam in his earlier anime work. For all your badgering about people not having watched much mecha I think you have some fucking huge gaps.
>>24062118it quite literally depicts the colony drop as a shining moment of wholesome unity, never mind that there was no time or ships to evacuate millions of people off the colonyalso it's fucking hilarious that the zeeks are talking shit about the feds using colonies as shields, when the zeeks are literally attempting to hijack one of those colonies full of people to drop on earth>you fuckers, we were only going to sacrifice 10 million people on this plan to drop a colony onto your earth HQ, now you're adding several thousand civilians every time you use them as a shield!
>>24062174sounds more like the zeeks had a moral obligation to surrender once they knew they couldn't win either since 4/5 reasons are zeon's own problemsor does that moral obligation not work both ways?
>>24062185that's why 0079 has virtually the same premise as yamato and not zambot or daitarn, shows he had much more creative direction on, because they were just inspired by editing the show together as a movie.
>>24062198No anon, if you fight the people who prove they're willing to genocide you, they win obviously.
>>24062200>0079 has virtually the same premise as yamato
>>24062203you got an argument against that, gundambaby?
>>24062085...if you use a smaller colony, and drop it at a reduced velocity, unlike Op. British using all of Side 5 and making it go as fast as possible to cause as much damage as possible (because they needed it to penetrate deep into the earth to actually strike Jaburo, as opposed to just damaging part of the surface like Dublin drop). Why are you pretending to be retarded to defend Operation British, the most unambiguously evil thing Zeon did at Gihren's Behest? At least if we're discounting side stories, like where Kycillia tried to genocide the earth with a bioweapon.
>>24062102This proves the point of the OP though, that later works blackwash the federation but whitewash Zeon
>>24062267Because the entire point is both suck. They want to show you reasons why people keep clinging on to Zeon, or to Casval.
>>24062266Do you have any actual evidence from the anime that these colonies were dropped "slower" or is this just your head canon and you yell at anyone who disagrees?
>>24062174That was agreed upon by the antarctic treaty, and the incentive they have to follow it is that the Federation has nooks as well, quite many of them, in fact. The only reason Zeon had to get creative with they colony laser, and the whole reason Zeon signed the Antarctic treaty is specifically BECAUSE their master olan didn't kill the Federation as quickly as they needed it to for their grab for supreme executive power to work, because the Federation can nuke them to shit, and now they can start building mobile suits that can deliver them if they even decided it was necessary. Even with Zeon's dwindling situation, they can't afford to risk the Federation's nuclear response if the gloves are off. Incidentally, this is why Yuri Kelarny deserves to rot in hell.
>>24062299>That was agreed upon by the antarctic treaty,Zeon could have done any of that BEFORE the treaty was signed. The Federation space fleet was also destroyed. They aren't going to be able to launch nukes at Zeon anytime soon.
>>24062278Yes, the fact that Side 2 was modified with an extra 10 billion tonnes of weight while what was dropped on Dublin was dropped raw without modifications; Op. British accelerated Iffish by external nuclear pulse propulsion thrusters to a terminal velocity of 11 kilometers per second (approx. 24,600 mph) upon atmospheric entry, while Dublin was fell primarily under the natural pull of Earth's gravity. This was specifically done because their target was on the surface and they wanted to minimize the damage. This is all easily verifiable by simply googling this comment, but you won't do that because you're experiencing cognitive dissonance.
>>24062311I'm still waiting for actual evidence. Tik tock anon. Tik tock.
>>24062314>This is all easily verifiable by simply googling this comment, but you won't do that because you're experiencing cognitive dissonance.Thanks for proving my point, I accept your concession and shan't be granting more (You)'s.
>>24062311>Yes, the fact that Side 2 was modified with an extra 10 billion tonnes of weight while what was dropped on Dublin was dropped raw without modifications; Op. British accelerated Iffish by external nuclear pulse propulsion thrusters to a terminal velocity of 11 kilometers per secondWrong. That's because the colony Zeon dropped didn't have any engines. Thrusters needed to be installed just to move the thing. Try again.
>>24062311Have you considered the following?
Uh, no. That doesn't change anything about what I said, which again you could google to verify, but you won't. I like how that bothered you so badly you had to reply again. No, mein nigger, I was quite correct.>>24062322an oldie but a goodie
/thread
>>24062317>I don't have any evidence so I'm going to pretend I was right to save face. Okay. You may leave. Permission granted.
>>24062319Pretty much this 100%. Most colonies are constructed in place. They do not have engines installed at all. They are just floating metal tubes. Even after the war was over, the Colony Corporation in 0083 had to install boosters onto many colony exteriors just to relocate the the undamaged colonies to newly rebuilt Sides.
>samefag meltyLol. zeeks are so pathetic
This entire thread is one anti-Zeon fan raging at everyone who disagrees with him. He demands evidence and if you provide it he calls it retcon garbage that wasn't in the original anime. If point out that the original anime doesn't support his argue or Tom{no disagrees with him, then he just says the answer should be obvious and anons don't know what they are talking about. When will you people learn that it's best not to feed the troll? He's never going to admit he's wrong or change his mind. He would rather let the thread die than admit he was wrong. Next time just ignore him and any overtly pro-Federation posts.
This entire thread is one anti-Feddie fan raging at everyone who disagrees with him. He demands evidence and if you provide it he calls it retcon garbage that wasn't in the original anime.If point out that the original anime doesn't support his argue or Tom{no disagrees with him, then he just says the answer should be obvious and anons don't know what they are talking about.When will you people learn that it's best not to feed the troll? He's never going to admit he's wrong or change his mind. He would rather let the thread die than admit he was wrong.Next time just ignore him and any overtly pro-Zeon posts.
>>24062454there is obviously multiple people in this thread who are disagreeing with you, because you are a pathetic LARPing faggot defending the honour of a fictional nation for... god knows why, it's certainly not for fun because this is boring as fuck and done to death.i don't give a fuck about the federation or zeon, the fact is that the original series clearly intends for zeon to be the antagonists and the feds to be the protagonists. if the intention was to make zeon sympathetic in any way, then starting the series off by showing them causing untold destruction and death by dropping a colony on australia and then attacking a colony full of mostly civilians in the first episode is not the best way to make them sympathetic. i circle back to a comment i made in this thread, how come throughout not just 0079, but the entirety of UC, there is not a single mention of how the earth federation or zeon governments are run? because its a show for twelve year olds, don't think too deeply about it. save the pathetic cringeworthy in-universe /pol/ LARPing for a series that actually has deep political themes like dougram, or LOGH. because the conflict is gundam is about as black and white as photon labs vs dr. hell. that also goes for the pro-fed autists you are complaining about, but at least they understand what the original series was throwing down rather than pretending that the antagonists dindu nuffin because you think monoeyes are cooler.
>>24062085I think it's dumb to try and use the scale of different colony drops as evidence for anything when Gundam's comically inconsistent with the damage and it varies per the needs of the given story and even between sources. Operation British did that much damage because they adopted semi-canon material that thought it'd be cool if there was a hole in Australia. The physics just don't work on any of them, trying to compare like-for-like is never going to work.It's also just completely fucking incoherent to suggest that, if we accept that Operation British was able to result in the amount of energy released that blew a hole in Australia, that having it more intact and focused would meaningfully change the cataclysmic wider impact. If anything, being knocked off course and into pieces with some burning up or reduced in size and others not making landfall at all should reduce the total amount of energy imparted by the strike. Any extra damage caused by bits and pieces landing further away is a rounding error next to the power of something able to give Australia a fucking inland sea. There is no conceivable way that if just part of this thing was able to create a hole in Sydney so big it wiped out Canberra too, that the whole thing hitting anywhere along the Amazon River would've magically just taken out Jaburo and some toucans. At absolute best, it may have killed less people as a first order result of the impact turning their homes into ash.If anything, the contained scale of ZZ's drop would've been ineffective at the goal of destroying an impervious base 'somewhere around the fucking river'. A tactical nuclear weapon can do what ZZ's drop did, let alone strategic. If that was a big enough bang, then there'd be no reason to drop a colony to begin with. You'd be left with Zeon doing it to work in a little extra genocide just for fun.The rest of this argument is whatever, not my clowns and not my circus, but this point is fucking stupid.
>>24062513>pro-fed autistsThis is just a slur for people who correctly ascertain that in every situation, they are the good guys. Per the Zeta Gundam novels, penned by Tomino explicitly to expand on Jamitov's character, Jamitov supported 0083 happening to establish the Titans because he is both an accelerationist and a contolist and wants to destroy the Federation from the inside to force humanity into space.One can make as many complaints about the federation as they like, but the only times they're ever actively malevolents, its become some fucking zigger or zigger sympathizer is pulling their strings. You're correct that the series has fairly black and white morality and gets bogged down by whiners and apologists.Wow, man, the government asked you to pay taxes and you decided to gather up a bunch of psychic children to torture and warp reality to your whims and your first order of business is to use it to destroy the earth. Oh, sorry, did you think I was talking about Zanscare? That was GQX in the timeline where Zeon wins.
>>24062513>i don't give a fuck about the federation or zeon>Hates Zeon in all his postsThe lie detector says that's a lie.
>>24062513Did you miss the part of Gundam Unicorn where the President of the Federation fired a colony laser on his own citizens?
>>24062544i don't hate zeon. like many people i think they have many cool ms designs and characters. char is insanely charismatic, the zabis are fun villains (in the same way dr. hell is, entirely unsympathetic and pure evil), the gelgoog is cool as fuck, zakus are iconic. i even think zeon zum deikun has noble intentions but the zabis and every future leader, including char himself, subverts that as an excuse to vye for power or settle petty grudges like char did to fight amuro. the series portrays them unambiguously as the antagonists and they do plenty of horrible things to let us the audience know that they are bad, even if they look cool. after all, the nazis looked pretty fresh in hugo boss and mausers are pretty cool guns, but they're still pretty fucking evil.>>24062549fukui calls himself the jj abrams of gundam, so we can safely throw that garbage show in the bin.
Reminder: fukui wrote unicorn as imperial japan apologism allegory.
>>240621800079 is so much better than Yamato it's not even funny.
>>24062513>zeon to be the antagonists and the feds to be the protagonistswrong, it's literally both sides suck with actual protagonists stuck in between to survive.>if the intention was to make zeon sympathetic in any way, then starting the series off by showing them causing untold destruction and death by dropping a colony on australia and then attacking a colony full of mostly civilians in the first episode is not the best way to make them sympathetic.for the last time, they explicitly say actions of Zeon and Federation both caused the death of half of humanity.
>>24062605>the opening states that both sides are responsible for half of humanity being dead so that means the feds are equally as responsible as zeon for it!you are a low-functioning autisticpoint to anything the feds did in the oyw on the scale of a colony drop and destroying an entire side full of colonies. zeon is clearly responsible for, at the very least, the vast majority of deaths in the one year war. also i didn't even cite half of humanity dying in that quote you retarded faggot. get lost.
>>24062146>zeon is responsible for the colony drop which killed a significant number of people on earthnever explicitly stated that it was zeon and not a collateral damage from both sides, but for argument's sake let's consider that true, majority of Earth's population was living in space so the number couldn't have been that high.>side 5 was allied with the federation and the federation within the original show is not shown to be in the business of killing their own civilians for no reason, so zeon is responsible for at the very least, most of the deaths in those colonies.LOL>finally, zeon holds military dominance over the federation for the majority of the war, because the ms revolutionises battleStill they both were stated to have been in stalemate for months.>and makes it so easy for zeon to wipe out the federation that they can even invade earth.Yeah and? As I said, most of the humanity does not even live on Earth. It clearly wasn't easy at all to wipe out Federation.>all the context clues you need to deduce that zeon is responsible for a large chunk of the "half of humanity dead".Yet, the narrator still points out that it was both sides, so clearly the 'large chunk' part is not true and the difference between their casualities was not significant enough to shift the blame on one side.
>>24062609>point to anything the zeon did in the oyw on the scale of a colony drop and destroying an entire side full of colonies.FTFY.
>>24062613>>24062615fuck off ivan you cringe larping faggot
>>24062618>l-la... larp!KEK, I accept the concession. I don't even disagree that Zeon are bad guys. It's just that they are not that worse than Federation who are also bad. Most of reasons for them being significantly worse is just not supported by what's in the show.
>>24062621you lost ivan, cry about it
>>24062625cope retard.
>>24062609>destroying an entire side full of colonieswhen did Zeon do that? Zeon may have dropped a colony, but the show said both sides were responsible for the destruction in space. 0083 even says the Federation used nukes before the Antarctic Treaty was signed.
>>24062655side 5 was a part of the federation. zeon attacked side 5 and reduced it to being a shitheap junkyard in space. yes the federation had a large fleet there but they were obviously trying to protect the colony from the other shit zeon did, like how they vacated (killed everyone inside) a colony from side 2 and then dropped it on earth. why would the federation destroy its own colonies? that would be like america deciding to nuke hawaii in WWII just to make things more exciting for them.
>>24062687>america analogyI get why you suck federation's dick so much.
>>240626871. Zeon fleet attacks2. Federation defense fleet fires nukes in response. 3. Some colonies caught in nuke explosion radius.
>>24062723keep letting america live rent free in your head ivan. considering i've been typing the queen's english it should be blatantly obvious i'm not american. >>24062737so it was accidental collateral trying to fight off an invading force that did even more damage to the colonies. all of this is dancing around the fact that zeon are clearly depicted as the villains of gundam and all of this is a stupid cope to try and introduce grey morality where there isn't any. i have been discussing this from a meta sense the whole time and yet you faggots keep trying to appeal to lore bullshit written years after the original show came out by different people, or tomino as a senile old man trying to pander to his dumb as shit audience of manchildren like yourselves. i don't care about the lore. the zabis live in a fucking evil cobra looking palace to signify that they are evil for a reason. the fed leadership all look like normal people while zeon leadership is a FUB who looks like a potato with glasses, frankenstein, hitler, and an old hag so disgusting she hides her face for most of the show. it couldn't be more obvious that they are supposed to be the antagonists.
>>24062744You ignoring something major. Zeon didn't just attack for no reason out of nowhere. This was DECADES of Federation oppression that led to Spacenoids rising up. The Spacenoids aren't even allowed to vote or have representation in the Federation assembly. Entire countries have risen up in rebellion because the people were not allowed to vote. This was made even worse by Federation immigration policy which forced people off the planet and they were not allowed to return, but secretly the Federation elites were allowed to stay. When the planet was 70% depopulated, then suddenly the the Elites ended the Colony building program and closed off earth to Spacenoids. They couldn't even visit. Spacenoids were left to fend for themselves in giant metal cylinders. The Federation created their own enemies with their actions to spacenoids.
>>24062746none of this is in the show btw, ivan.
>>24062744so you don't have any arguments other them looking ugly (and aged up due to war), as expected from Feddie shill. This does not even factor in Garma who is pretty decent looking. Both the Zabi family and Federation elites are bad and it's relatively normal people like WB crew, Matilda, Miharu, Ral, Doan, Hamon, Woody etc who are stuck working for them suffer. That's what Gundam is about, get that through your thick fucking skull.
>>24062769Why would you declare a war of independence if you were being treated well?
>>24062655>0083 even says the Federation used nukes before the Antarctic Treaty was signed.They did specifically try to use nukes to destroy the captured colony on January 5th prior to the fleet engagement, yes, but it didn't work. It's one of the scenes intro, actually.You'll note this happens after it was gassed
>>24062943That's from January 3rd, and it was just Zeon blowing up colonies and their garrison forces with their nukes (a fleeing Salamis gets blown up shortly after in the same shot). The Feddie nukes fired at Iffish did contribute to the colony falling apart, though
>>24062737>3. Some colonies caught in nuke explosion radius.They aren't close enough together for that to happen. Nuclear explosions don't really have the same effect in space that they do on Earth. You're probably thinking of 0083's Naval Review, but the The Mk 82 from Stardust Memory was strategic in nature, not tactical, and used some Minovsky h4x to achieve the effect it did (they keep trying to retcon it because that scene was a bit silly).Though I'm racking my brain to think of a single source that mentions the Feddies using nukes. Some of Tomino's old production notes, or maybe the novels? neither of those things really contributed to the modern day version of Operation British. The claim that both sides destroyed the colonies with NBC weapons gets thrown around a lot, but every Japanese source I can find claims Zeon destroyed the colonies, and some of these don't even mention nukes at all. What's more, The Origin (which has the ONLY fully animated depiction of the Operation British in detail) basically shows what said sources describe and everyone here has been saying; Zeon destroyed the colonies as per their objective (Gihren even states it publicly in a speech, this shit was on purpose) the Federation was not involved in that destruction and simply responded after the fact with whatever they could.
>>24062769>none of this is in the show btw, ivan.This anon is hilariously hypocritical.If you point out something that supports Zeon in the anime, then he says it doesn't count and to look at databooks and manga.If you point out something in the databooks and manga, this anon says it's non canon garbage.If you point out later anime shows have points that say Zeon may have been right, he says it doesn't count because it wasn't the original anime and it's a retcon.I'm genuinely wondering if I'm arguing with a bot that has the prompt of: >"No matter what is posted always disagree and take the opposite stance and say it doesn't count even if it logically makes no sense. Make sure to always say Zeon is evil."
>>24062828>>24063102im not engaging in your pathetic cope ivan.despite assertions to "grey morality", 0079 clearly depicts zeon as the antagonists and the federation as flawed but ultimately the protagonists. you're allowed to think the antagonists are cooler than the protagonists but stop doing this pathetic larp bullshit of trying to argue like you're a zeon soldier online. it's beyond cringe but cultivated on this board because all of you are a bunch of faggots who only watch gundam slop and evangelion.
>>24063160Nope. You missed the entire plot. Tomino himself said he was trying to show the viewers both a tyrannical dictatorship VS a corrupt and dysfunctional democracy.>Tomino: Even the mightiest empires corrode from within. I even toyed with this idea in Gundam with the Earth Federation. History has proven this concept (one world government) as fundamentally flawed.Tomino never said which side the viewers were supposed to root for, or which form of government was better or worse. Both sides had their heroes and villains. >Tomino: "The Earth Federation specifically is a federal government, but it is set up as a very dysfunctional government that has many exposed shortcomings.>Looking at the politicians of major powers, you can see that human beings lack the sense to unite various ethnic groups."The White Base crew were the protagonists that were caught in the middle. Tomino wanted to tell a story of survival and family while trying to survive in a war. The reason the story focuses a little more on Zeon is because Tomino felt that Zeon was better for dramatic storytelling purposes. The Federation was bland and couldn't be used effectively. Japanese Fans even asked him directly why Tomino doesn't focus more on the Federation.>Tomino: Democracy as a storytelling mechanism itself lacks dramatic potential and is unsuitable for robot anime. I've given up on portaying the Earth Federation. I don't think I'll ever depict them in detail in the future.Your interpretation goes against what Tomino was trying to do. Tomino criticized Gihren, but Tomino himself even said that a benevolent dictatorship has its own pros and potential. Here's his thoughts when asked>Tomino: "If someone with a completely different perspective were to exercise benevolent governance and be able to control the military itself, perhaps new possibilities could emerge. They may be able to sprout new seeds of possibility. I think it might lead to what they call 'Newtype' in Gundam."
>>24063173i didn't "miss the entire plot", i am telling you that the base reaction from an audience member who didn't think too deeply about the show is that the federation are the protagonists, zeon committed way more and worse atrocities than the federation did (in fact the federation never really gets accused of any atrocities until later material), and also they are aesthetically reminiscent of other giant robot antagonists, so therefore they are antagonists. why does this upset you so much? have you really invested this much of your being into gundam and defending zeon? what's even funnier is that you cite retarded fanfiction bullshit justifying zeon doing war crimes, and fundamentally miss the message of gundam, which is "war is bad". there's no such thing as a justified war, but naturally you are inclined more to side with the people who are being attacked, hence why the protagonists of the series are the hapless earth federation who are kind of underdogs despite originally being the ruling faction.i understand that its hard for you to acknowledge that, ivan. i mean, at the risk of going off-topic, i understand why you want to justify zeon, because you have to justify your own mother country invading another. and i'll even meet you in the middle and say you were certainly provoked into the war by NATO meddling, but that doesn't justify killing civilians and invading another country, especially because ukraine isn't the country ultimately responsible for what happened. it's america. and yet you accused me of being an american, how amusing.
>>24063173oh and also, before i forgot:stop using reddit spacing you stupid cunt, and also preferably stop replying because you are dumb as dogshit.
>>24063176Back up your statements with evidence. Not opinions. At least anon uses Tomino to support his arguments. What do you use?
>>24063177NTA, but you are the easiest person to track in this thread because you don't capitalise or use functional grammar. You only survive because English is such a basic bitch langauge that word order is all that matters. Here's a basic grammar for you. the I of "I am talking about myself" should always be capitalised. The first letter of any sentence should be capitalised, the first word of any paragraph, or proper noun, should be capitalised. You clearly aren't American, you're too SEA. Pretending to be white.
>>24063177>>24063160>>24062744Please use proper English and grammar. Even for the internet where grammatical errors and people are lazy, your posts are very difficult to read. Please use capitalization and periods. Stop having so much run-on sentences. You have no right to criticize others for "reddit spacing" when your posts make you sound like an Indian guy who is using Google translate to communicate (poorly) with us.
>>24062744>so it was accidental collateral trying to fight off an invading force There's no such thing as "accidental collateral". Nukes in Gundam have very high yields and are designed to destroy colonies. If the Federation fires them, then they are accepting the risks that come with it
is this the ultimate /m/ thread because i'm now arguing with a samefagging russian chatbot coping about being called out?
>>24063238>Gets called samefag>No you! >Gets accused of using chatbot>No you! >Gets accused of being ESL>No you! Is this all you know how to do? Just repeat the insults and accusations back at others in the thread. How embarrassing.
>>24063238Since when did Russians become involved in your nonsense?
hey ivan how do you feel about russia returning to international ice hockey? beep boop
>>24063266See >>24062170This entire argument is apparently just an extension of the intense Russian angst surrounding the failures of the Ukraine war and tarnished image of the Big Scary Russian Bear in relation to it. An argument was made that a given victim of aggression has a moral responsibility to capitulate to said aggression in order to avoid further aggression from the aggressor that would cost lives (no, go ahead, read above; it's happening as we post) followed by a post that related it to the IRL Ukraine War, uninvitedly implying that actual, real world victims of real world evil deserve what's happening to them alongside the justification of Zeon's fictional, but objectively colossal acts of villainy.So, if you want to go right ahead and assume all Zeonwankers are all just bitter Ziggers and/ their loyal thirdie serfs, go right ahead and use this thread as an example, I suppose.
>>24063347The difference between a rape victim and a country being invaded is that the rape victim gets to walk away afterwards, and potentially call the police and appeal to a higher authority. A country being invaded doesn't get to just walk away. A country has to consider its own citizens and its own survival. I wasn't the one who brought up Ukraine in this thread but if you want to go there then fine. A lot of news media has been saying recently that Ukraine can't win. That they have lost most of their population and should consider giving Russia a peace treaty. If you know you can't win then what is point of continuing to fight? If Zeon refused to sign the Antarctica treaty with the Federation and used weapons of mass destruction then what would the Federation have done?
>>24032459How does it feel being too stupid for a children's cartoon from 50 years ago?
>>24063364i don't know, you tell us you larping faggot
>>24063367So you are just going to call everyone who disagrees with you a larping samefag?
>>24063367Afraid I don't have the experience to answer this question to a satisfying degree.
What the fuck happened here?Where are the damn jannies when you need them?
>ivan crying to the jannies after being exposedkekaroo
>>24063176>zeon committed way more and worse atrocities than the federation diyou literally can't prove this, the show explictly states that it's both sides.
We literally see Operation British in The Origin and I have no idea why everyone's trying to pretend that version is somehow not canon and the Federation was actually really reckless with the civilian populations and it's all really their fault etc, etc. It depicts what the primary sources describe happened almost to the letter, and it shows Zeon do what Zeon does.Besides, you don't have to make up bullshit to pretend the Federation sucks. There's plenty of reasons to call them cunts, but this particular nonsense is not the hill I'd die on in that matter.
>>24063747yes and revenge of the sith opens with the line "there are heroes on both sides", yet even myself as a child understood that the sith were antagonists and jedi were protagonists. i know you're autistic and read everything literally but you also need to look at context clues, like the fucking evil cobra palace for one example, and zeon's utter dominance in the war for another, to conclude that zeon are intended to be antagonists and are also responsible for many more deaths than the feds.
>>24063915the origin is yas char wank fanfiction and takes place in an alternate universe because it changes many important events in 0079. it's irrelevant to actual uc discussion
>>24063915>The OriginThe Federation is much worse in Origin. We see them for decades oppressing Spacenoids in the Prologue stories. Scenes of Federation ships even willing to ram civilian ships if they don't get out of the way, and Federation soldiers using spacenoid civilian buildings as cover for protection during battles. Using the Origin in your argument was a big mistake.
>>24064072>evil cobra palaceAnd the Federation building a massive underground base in the Amazon rainforest while suppressing, beating, and hurting the local human tribes is better? Nice try.
>>240640930079 shows none of that and just shows jaburo as a normal military base you retarded russki sperg.
>>24064122Its in the Origin story.
>>24063915>using dogshit fanfic by yas that's not canon and made decades after UC saga had already concluded.
>>24064072>no proof >fag wars analogyKEK>fucking evil cobra palacenobody is denying that zabis are bad and has to go, but this does not automatically make federation good.>zeon's utter dominance in the war for anotheryet they were in stalemate.>are also responsible for many more deaths than the feds.something you couldn't prove from the show and is contradicted every episode by narration.
>>24064397>crying about the star wars analogydon't pretend like you're "above" star wars when you're a gundamfaggot kek. gundam nowadays is just as much of a corporate slop franchise with all the soul removed and endlessly rehashing nostalgia, and bandai is just as shit of a company as disney. >something you couldn't prove from the show and is contradicted every episode by narrationi've pointed out key events described within 0079 itself (the colony drop in every episode, the shoal zone where side 5 used to be and where the texas colony is located, the overall situation that the EF finds itself in where they are on the backfoot even on earth) that suggest that zeon is responsible for far more deaths. meanwhile, in 0079 there is no suggestion that the federation has done anything on the same level of destruction. so, mr autist, using events from the OYW as reference and not some vague text trying to introduce grey morality where it doesnt exist (again, like the flavour text in ROTS), i challenge you to point out anything that the federation has done that equals that level of human destruction.
>>24064535Not that anon but you are operating on a false premise. We don't know which side is responsible for the most damage in space. It could have been a brutal space battle with both sides hitting each other with everything they had.Going by the databooks, yhe OYW Salamis came equipped with nuclear missile launchers. And early war Zakus had radiation shielding to protect their pilots from radiation from nearby nuclear blasts. So this strongly says the Federation used nukes during the war. Enough nukes that Zeon had to equip their Zakus with radiation protection.
>>24064536the salamis with nukes and zaku radiation stuff is never even implied in the original show. also in the original show, while you definitely have fed soldiers who are extreme assholes to the white base crew and you have those soldiers looting amuro's mothers house, i don't think there's any evidence in the show to indicate that the federation would be so callous as to murder their own citizens (side 5 was allied to the ef). so, i am still led to believe that zeon is responsible for most of the deaths in space. again if you have any evidence as to the contrary then i would love to hear it unless it's the same retarded bullshit cope from ivan that they are evil for not surrendering immediately.
>>24064541Well you are going to have to explain the fact that he Federation space fleet is around 3 to 4 times bigger than all of Zeon's space fleet, at least in terms of ships and fighters. That means the Federation is firing a lot more ordinance and weapons than the Zeon fleet. Musai ships only have beam weapon turrets. Those are meant for piercing. Zakus carry small machine guns, heat axes, and small rockets to punch through Federation ship armor. Not enough to shatter massive colonies. Zakus are precision weapons. They dodge and get in close and sink Federation ships by hiring their engine or bridge.So that leaves the Federation fleet. They are equipped with tons of huge missiles, anti-ship rockets, and nukes. So most of the destruction must have come for the Federation fitting off all their weapons and miles. While Zakus dodge and sink Federation ships up close.
>>24064547>If you live in a balloon in space and shoot at it with a 240mm explosive shell designed to obliterate battleships or giant beam cannons it wont destroy the balloon
