I want to read all the ancient historians. I’ve read Livy, Sallust, and Plutarch so far and enjoyed them immensely. It’s really made me think about history and how it can be an art as much as a science (modern history seems to me to have veered far into the science side); the dialogues they put in the mouths of historical figures, while probably not real, are very well done and illuminate the “feeling” of the times as well as the stakes. All the best known historians are already on my list (Herodotus, Tacitus, Cassius Dio, etc). If you’ve got some obscure Rome, Greek, Persian, Assyrian, Chinese, etc historian whose work is translated into English and paperback tell me their name and tell me what you like about them. Thanks.
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>>25600630Thanks, desu. I have been meaning to reread this. Haven’t since I was in elementary bible class.
>>25600630
The best part in Herodotus is where he says you shouldn't piss on the path while you're walking down it and the second best part is where he says the Egyptians are like the Greeks but the men do the women stuff and the women do the men stuff and one of the examples is carrying heavy stuff on your shoulder or on top of your head.
I’ve read most ancient historians up until the 2nd century (and some beyond) and I’d rank them the following>Thucydides>Polybius>Procopius>Caesar>Plutarch Inb4 not a history writer>Ammianus>Herodotus>Sallust>Diodorus>Appian>Josephus>Tacitus >Arrian>Livy>Cassius Dio>Suetonius >Julius Nepos>Paterculus>XenophonMost controversial here might be Tacitus, I understand why he is praised, but I find his whining tiring. Other than that he’s a perfectly respectable historian. Xenophon is like Caesar if he was really petty and a little retarded
>>25600704Thank you for the detailed list! Why do you rank Livy so low and Procopius and Caesar so high? I thought Livy was a great storyteller and he frequently acknowledged when his sources were iffy, whereas Caesar only wrote his very short notebook of his campaign in Gaul and Procopius is mostly him shitting on his bosses, no?Ammianus Intrigues me but it will be a while before I get to him. I’m firmly in BC era for now. I can understand why Polybius is number two. I’m reading him now. Why is Thucydides your number one? I’ve heard his language can be very difficultThanks!
>>25600607You should check out "how to write history" by Lucian of Samosata. A short treatise by a prominent 2nd century AD Roman intellectual that explains a lot of the problems with greek and roman histories, such as poor source selection, wholesale fabrication of major details to tell a narrative, ridiculously inflating battle sizes and casualty figures, writing florid prose rather than direct prose that will be easy for future generations to understand, and inventing speeches for important generals or statesmen when the author thinks a speech would serve the narrative (although funnily enough he says this is ok as long as its done sparingly and where you have a good sense of the historical figure's character). Lucian also wrote a satire called "A True Story" making fun of ridiculous travel narratives about details of foreign lands that were marketed as true. The book has been called ancient roman sci-fi because it's about a group of sailors who get caught in a hurricane that carries them up so high into the air that they wind up on the moon, and become a band of mercenaries to the aliens who live there. It's a fun novel.
>>25600735I enjoyed Livy, I just got a little tired of reading him, the annalistic format did him more harm than good I think. Procopius is a sort of mix of Polybius and Thucydides, much like Polybius, he’s a very self aware writer in his proper history. The Secret History is his (entertaining) shit list and not really a history. I know a lot of people struggle with Thucydides but I loved him, especially the speeches, he admits at the start that they aren’t accurate per se but rather representations of what was conveyed or meant. He’s overall very solid. My opinion on Caesar is coloured by the fact I’ve studied his works quite a bit and I’ve read his Latin, his writing is extraordinary but you can only get that sense in the Latin. You aren’t missing any context in translation and I’d probably put him a little below or equal to Sallust if I based it just on the content alone. I enjoyed Ammianus for the content, his Latin is difficult to me, and I’m a sucker for Late Antiquity and he has a great coverage of Constantius and Julian. I’d argue his narrative is one of the best for any historical figure that isn’t a biography
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>>25600748Thank you. I’ll check these out.>>25600767Thanks, I wasn’t aware procopius wrote something other than the secret history.>>25600770I know Ibn. Tell me about sima
>>25600607>If you’ve got some obscure Rome, Greek, Persian, Assyrian, Chinese, etc historian whose work is translated into English and paperback tell me their name and tell me what you like about them. Thanks.Here's some Aztec ones (in a loose definition, EX: Nahuas in general, not just the Mexica, and including Mestizos, if they had direct trackable lineage to Aztec rulers etc within the first century of contact):>Fernando Alvarado Tezozomoc>Domingo Francisco Chimalpahin>Diego Muñoz Camargo>Fernando de Alva Ixtlilxochitl>Juan Bautista PomarSadly, I don't know of a comprehensive list of their works, many haven't been translated into English (IIRC some may not even have Spanish translations still), and confusingly, a number of their works also have near identical or inconsistent titles, some even have disputed authorship where they are ascribed to more than one of the people I listed, but if you Google around you can find english translations of some of their stuff (EX: see pic related)
>>25601304I’ve never heard of Aztec historians before. Were they written on stone like near east tablets or were these post conquest histories? Those names you listed are Spanish so I lean toward the latter.
Livy is the GOAT.
>>25601794Okay, i hesitate to recommend youtubers for books but a chap called dj peachcobbler does long, informative, schizophrenic rants on parts of aztec history and why it's such a shitstorm as well as listing his sources. Doing a masters degree in history. Check out his stuff on the friar and the maya, or whatever southern american stuff. Even if you don't like his work you'll like his books.
>>25602591>>25601794Oh. And to answer your questions, Bernadino de Sahaguin's work was heavily suppressed. He wrote one entirely from native perspectives using their sources, some verbal, some written. I just don't remember what the written form was. Sorry.
>>25600607Julian the Apostate does a calculated panegyric to his cousin Constantine (the one who killed loads of his family to take power.) It's interesting to see his calculated and necessary flattery in order to show himself as not a threat. Also he does other small pieces that are good like the beard hater one. You may already have them down, but Cicero's and Seneca's letters are bloody brilliant.
>>25600630Follow this up with Eusebius
"The study of history is the best medicine for a sick mind"-Livy
>>25604486That’s what I’m hoping.>>25602621Thanks. I’ll look for it.>>25602594Thank you. It’ll probably be a while before I get to any of this. I have to get through antiquity, Middle Ages, renaissance first
>>25600607Why do so many people gas up Thucydides and hate Herodotus? It seems like an apples and oranges thing.
>>25600607Lucan's Pharsalia. from the thomas may translation (freely available on google books):>And now (admiring that proſpect)>To Rome this ſpeech he did direct.> O ſeate of Gods! could this men ſo>Forſake thee, ere they ſaw a foe?>If thou canſt not, what Citty can>Deſerue to be fought for by man?>Well haue the higher powers repreſt,>The humors of the armed Eaſt,>From ioyning with the Hungars ſtout>And all that fierce outragious rout>Of Dakes, of Getes, and Sarmatans,>From bringing downe their bloudy bands>To thee (poore Rome) by Fortune ſpar'd>Whom fearefull Pompey durſt not gaurd.>So weakely mand, more bleſt art farre>With ciuill then with Forraigne warre.>Thus ſaid, forthwith he did inveſt>The Citty, then with feares poſſeſt:>For ſure they thought, that (in his ire)>All should haue beene conſum'd with fire,>And Temples ſhould to ruine runne,>As ſoone as hee the walles had wonne.>Such was the meaſure of their fright,>His will they conſtru'd by his might.>And in ſuch ſudden mazements weare,>That they their ſacred rites forbeare.>The common ſort to ſportings bent,>Their merry tunes turn'd to lament:>No ſpleen they had, their ſprights were ſpent>The Roman Fathers reuerend troope>In Phabus Pallace fitting, droope:>Not thither called at an houre,>By order of the Senates powre.>No Conſuls with their preſence grace>Their ſacred ſeates in ſupreme place.>Nor next to them the lawes to ſway>The Prator ſate in his array.>No Coches at the Senate gate,>That thither bring the Peeres of ſtate.>Caſar alone was all in all,>His priuate voyce the Court doth thrall.>The Fathers to his heſts giue way,>Rady his pleasure to obay.>Whether he Monarchy deſire,>Or would to ſacred rites aſpire:>Or liues of Senators would waſt,>Or them into exile would caſt.>But he (more modeſt and more milde)>Did blush his power ſhould be defil'd>More to command (with threatning feare)>Then well the Roman ſtate could beare.it's an account of ceasar and pompey's civil war, though for purposes of drama, the actual reason for their war, ceasar being prosecuted by the senate, is hardly touched on at all. ceasar is instead portrayed as simply powerhungry.
>>25604837I too am a bit perplexed by the dismissal of ancient historians like they are a pack of arrogant liars when their tone from what I read so far is usually “here are some accounts of what happened that I read/heard, I’m not sure which is true so I’ll just describe them all”. >>25605101It’s very difficult for me to get into verse. Maybe after awhile of training/healing my brain on the non verse historians I’ll be able to tackle this. Thanks
>>25600704I've considered reading Xenophon, but so many people seem to shit on him. Is he really that bad?
>>25605101>pompey quoting laws to someone carrying a sworddoubt.jpg
>>25606357pompey and ceasar never speak directly to eachother within to work
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