Are there any Marxist books or write-ups about the ongoing AI revolution?
marxism will die out in this century because marxists don't breed
Yea quite a lot.
>>25599225Such as?
>>25599219>it's totally Capitalists fault! Alienation! Labour! it's getting tiresome
>>25599219Watch Daimon Walter's video essay on Skibbity Toilet. It's not just a bit about Marx, it's more to do with Land, but he covers Marx, Kant, Nietzsche and others
>>25599231>TiresomeWhy not let it sink for once, bozo?
>>25599238Sink is good metaphor of all Marxists intellectual endevours. All for nothing.
>>25599219Zizek speaks about this.
>>25599240As in penetrate that noggin >>25599222The elite want to kill off a few billion of us, but the idea of communism will survive. Marx will survive as long as there is capitalism same as Adam Smith
>>25599236>video essay
>>25599228I have come across a few of them, but i dont have all of them ready on hand. I remember reading a short article on Branko Milanovic's blog about it that was pretty good. https://branko2f7.substack.com/p/artificial-intelligence-and-futureCosmonaut magazine has some articles and even books/book reviews about it as well:https://cosmonautmag.com/search/?category=All&query=AI
>>25599274>as Adam SmithThat's the thing. There isn't. Marx lived in 19th century England and wrote about 19th century England
>>25599231>it's getting tiresomeCapitalism?Yes it does.
I have found the only people who talked about tech the most have been right wingers like Heidegger, and Ludwig klages, and anarchists like uncle ted and Jacques Ellul.the question of tech in philosophy seems to be a Marxist blind spot
>>25599242I'm still houling that this man somehow always looks like he's about to vomit on himself and everyone around him at any given moment
>>25599219I feel like the development of AI will make capitalism collapse, or at least change it into an unrecognizable form.Let's imagine a future in which AI, combined with other machines, gains every ability a human has, both physically and mentally. It can now do everything a human can do, i.e., provide labor, make art, solve math problems, etc.This has some significance, and I'll come back to it later.During and after the Industrial Revolution, new machinery generally created more jobs and contributed to overall economic growth. While some job losses occurred in certain sectors, new technologies were generally a positive thing for the economy. (I hope anons understand some of the basic mechanisms behind this economic phenomenon. I'll keep this post short, so you know.)However, when AI gains the same abilities as humans, new jobs won't go to humans; they'll go to AI, since it can do the same jobs as humans but more cheaply. This makes AI a substitute for human labor, meaning both new and existing jobs will increasingly go to AI.As a result, people who sell their labor to earn money will no longer have their traditional source of income. This creates a problem.These people make up a large majority of the world's population. Most companies depend on them to buy their products. But if these people have no substantial income, they won't generate demand for goods as they did before. Without demand, there will be no incentive to produce goods, which, in turn, could cause the capitalist economic system to face a strong challenge.So, either capitalism will evolve into another form that retains some traces of its earlier structure, or it will collapse completely.I would say we should accelerate this process, i.e., make markets freer and reduce regulations on AI. Changing capitalism at this point will only lead to failure, as we've seen how other economic systems throughout history have failed in comparison to capitalism.Let it accelerate.
>>25599219>Automation disproves MarxLaughably stupid, but what the LessWrong crowd actually believes is>AI Agents are human beings, which disproves MarxWhich is far more retarded because it's also an illiterate take on Marx but also signals you read some ugly pervert's Harry Potter fanfic before you read Capital or any other work of Western philosophy.If you're on LessWrong it's because you saw picrel and decided he was more worth your time than Aristotle, and following that got groomed into some bizarre cult because of Roco's Basilisk o algo.
>>25599331I also think the rationalists are retarded. On the other hand they’ve been right on everything in this AI thing so far, so perhaps we should listen to them
>>25599219Marx himself talked about this in volume 1 of Das Kapital, chapter 15, an in his notes. People call it the fragment about machines. He said that automation under capitalist control would mean alienation, displacement of labor and lower wages, thus bringing an intensification labor and ecplotaotion, which is badically what we're seeing now.Automation under socialism meant the opposite. Machines would reduce labor time, labor intensity, thus bringing free time to workers. At some point worker would be free of all labor as machines did all the work. He even wrote about " General Intellect" as the knowledge and tech built into machines. If you ask me, that's AI.
>>25599323the large majority of the world's population has never had "substantial income" anon
>>25599310Chuds and Marxists are really the same, one blame the Jews second Capitalism, for all the shortcomings of their egos
>>25599355And your are..?
>>25599355I hate most marxists too, anont. marxistMarx was still right
>>25599222They recruit like the gays.
>>25599219It's all the same fundamental aspects. If you're thinking of LLMs as fundamentally different than introducing servomechanisms or something you're flawed.You can nitpick idiocy of the promising huge productivity gains which should translate into huge real wage growth.>>25599323>While some job losses occurred in certain sectors, new technologies were generally a positive thing for the economyNew technology tends to be deflationary and "bad" for vested economic interests. Falling prices aren't good and result in insolvency, debt deflation, etc. That's what happened towards the end of the 19th century where industries tried to form syndicates and control prices, etc.AI doesn't seem to be deflationary force yet and driving up costs if anything by being a huge resource hog.>This makes AI a substitute for human labor, meaning both new and existing jobs will increasingly go to AI.All investment is a substitute for labour. If everything becomes more capital intensive, accounting for depreciation becomes an issue.>As a result, people who sell their labor to earn money will no longer have their traditional source of income. This creates a problem.That's always the first issue with a economic depression and everybody notices there's some sort of demand problem. What happened historically was something like military Keynesianism, instead of producing consumer goods businesses can sell services to government.
>>25599365Well why do YOU hate them
>>25599387>It's all the same fundamental aspects. If you're thinking of LLMs as fundamentally different than introducing servomechanisms or something you're flawed.This is obviously different because this technology can basically do any job quicker and more efficiently than a human can, except for manual jobs (yet)
>>25599331>san francisco new rationalists start-up societal canceryou are the biggest fucking retards if you actually believe these faggots are not pro AI - they are literal reason it became such a big deal in the first place. like just go back to prone boning your Bayes theorem body pillow please
>>25599392>This is obviously different because this technology can basically do any job quicker and more efficiently than a human can, except for manual jobs (yet)These things do not possess anything like general intelligence. They are trained on data sets and can be prompted and guided but have limits which become apparent when you attempt to actually do advanced operations and integrate them into business process operations.You are taking corporate press briefings and youtube tinkers at face value. Like I said think of these as servomechanisms and a lot of what will unfold will make more sense.
>>25599316Because Marxism is a technology (not the only form of economic technology but technology nonetheless). You cannot separate the two, hence why college Marxists go on and on about it being an empirical "science" of economy rather than a mere philosophy. There's also a whole thing about technology and the superstructure interacting with each other, evolving and eventually bringing about the end of history (or Pre-history if you're that kind of Marxist)
>>25599331The rationalist cult that elevates this technology to the status of a person even though it is clearly a computer program operating on a dataset serves as a smokescreen for their intention to impose hierarchical authoritarianism, with their own insular techno-financial circles and networks positioned at the top. I find popular AI discourse tedious and informed heavily by pop culture sci-fi tropes, hysteria and paranoia to serve to divert attention from the real issue that is the malevolence of the liberal ruling class and the bourgeoisie’s drive to further consolidate the dominance of capital. In this context, AI is merely another tool in the vast arsenal employed in a struggle that has been ongoing for centuries between the conservative preservation of hierarchy vs popular rule.
>>25599222are you actually retarded lol?
>>25599222The idea will persist as long as capitalism exists
Excellent bait image
>>25599628Honestly I doubt it. Looking at demographics Muslims will be a plurality if not outright majority of humans at some point, and Muslims are completely immune to Marxism.
>>25599350It's from the Grundrisse
>>25599219Look up Jacobin articles, they had a whole issue on it last year and have been continuing some coverage on it. Verso is a big lefty publisher, I’m sure they’ve pumped out a few recently.
>>25599677>Jacobin>VersoNeither of these are really Marxist, they'll both publish Marxists occasionally but the bulk of Verso is insular, poststructuralist wank exclusively for other Verso authors and most Jacobin articles are by social democrats who have abandoned the LTV in favor of marginalism. Anyway Marx himself wrote extensively on automation, Claude Code is no different than a cotton gin in that it automates a portion of labor. Anthropic's recent PR push around getting religious leaders to sign off on its humanity is just an attempt to undermine what remains of liberalism in order to juice the graph and get more data centers built.>>25599470Truke
>>25599708Are you willing to entertain the idea that Anthropic and their ilk are actually on the way to creating AGI? And if they do, things change so much that our current discussions of capitalism are rendered moot
>>25599712It doesn't really seem to add up with the way the technology works. The notion of a conscious, fully autonomous entity capable of ushering in a utopia of abundance while performing any conceivable task without supervision or oversight does not seem particularly consistent with how LLMs actually function or the way they are designed. It may be capable of very impressive results, but it is still dependent on an input and a user prompt, and it lacks a true consciousness or "thinking" to be able to meaningfully adapt if not already given a prompt or cue by the user to build from. In my view, the real issue lies in questions of ethics and how the technology is deployed by the dominant classes, who already control the means of production. In this context, AI functions as an advanced productive tool, but remains ultimately just one component within the broader spectrum of computing and information technologies that have already impacted the distribution of work and labor opportunity in the West and the prevailing economic disparities between white-collar and blue-collar work, knowledge work/tech work/services vs manual labor and such. Of course, it may further accelerate it, but this has already been an existing trajectory and dialectic.If, hypothetically, such a situation were to result in an abundance sufficient to sustain society indefinitely without the need for productive human labor, liberalism would be compelled either to resort to massive state intervention to regulate access to resources and provide either makework jobs or welfare policy to preserve itself without succumbing to unrest. A compelling alternative from the left would be to proceed with the nationalization and socialization of technological infrastructures so the gains are in the hands fully of the worker and the technology is utilized in a manner to benefit the nation state/government. If it were to reach such a stage, such technologies would become a threat comparable to military-grade weaponry or telecommunications infrastructure. The oligarchy might, and in all likelihood will, attempt to exploit this situation to further concentrate wealth. However, such a move would inevitably trigger uprisings and destabilization. Furthermore, given that hierarchy derives part of its value from comparisons with others and the capacity to exercise power, the absence of underlings would strip the power and wealth of the elites of any relative value.
>>25599222soviets had a super high birthrate and it plummeted and remained low after the soviet union fell. its got nothing to do with marxism.
>>25599760They don't care if they rule over ashes, they'll burn it all down if it means they can "win"
>>25599712Hic rhodus, hic salta
>>25599222orly?
>>25599219
>>25599368Because they literally are the gays.
>>25599316You would like this. It is long but well worth the time.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xfmpgIH8IQ
>>25599355>one blame the Jews second CapitalismTake capitalism out of social operations and you render (((The Jews))) and all other ills of corruption inert.Take all Jews to the grave and you have a world of corruption still. And I am NOT A MARXIST. This has been a thing for thousands of years. It is at the core of Christ's teaching. This aspect Marx disposed. He wanted Christian socialism to be silenced. And ((someone)) agreed with him and funded him and the Marxists takeover.
>>25600509>disposed*Despised rather
>>25599219During the Soviet days there was a book called "Cybernetics in Service of Communism" that caused quite a stir for a while in the '60s, but then was suppressed. I've never been able to find a copy, even in Russian.
>>25600532Beer?
>>25600555If you mean Berg, yeah. It was based on (or possibly the source for) a talk he gave in '61 that got the Ministry of Defense to fund a development school for cybernetics and AI.
>>25600563I was think Stafford Beer.
>>25600577Oh, the cybersyn guy! Yeah nah, it was by Aksel Berg.
>>25600532if you want it in print it looks like it's included in "From Newspeak to Cyberspeak: A History of Soviet Cybernetics" published by MIT.
>>25599219Check out Wilderness Front they've put out some writings on AI plus an article on why capitalism isn't the entire problem.
>>25599222Nobody has been breeding for decades
>>25601290Not on my watch.
>>25599219Marxists should be pro-AI because that would alleviate some of the suffering we currently deal with or something.
>>25599365
>>25599219No kek, marxists don't understand technology or markets, much less AI, their very theory prevents them from doing so, capitalism wins again.
>>25599316Some of the new left thinkers usually lumped technology as part of the backbone of the culture industry, as technological changes also enabled the intensification of obscuring the relation between labor and capital (e.g PMC, gig workers, precariat but this can be contested as a revisionist approach within Marxist tradition). But their humanist critiques impedes their ability to recognize other dimensions like the technical aspects (usually invokes by the tech-savvy, privacy oriented folks like RMS) and many others.
>>25601608The automation and AI etc. has always hurt workers, but that is because of capitalists.The liberals say things'll be so great and give us all sorts of time off, "let the robots take care of. whoopy." But they ignore that this puts people out of work. "Oh, well just have more robot repairmen. Gotta go back to school for training, guy. Get a student loan again!" Meanwhile they fudge the job market numbers, the homelessness numbers. Without the capitalists, automation and AI etc. CAN improve our lives. We WOULD have time off to pursue other things, other work, creative work, kickback or traveling Whatever we want. How? Why would this be possible? WAGES. Why should our lives be controlled by the little kings of corporations? And no, I am not Marxist. We do not need a single party "vanguard" ruling in DC to make all this possible. Fuck Marx, Lenin etc.
>>25599668>Muslims are completely immune to Marxism.If anything, experience has shown that muslims are not immune to capitalism. Which means they will have to face Marxism sooner or later
>>25599668If there's one thing that unite turdwolders is their unabashed usage of AI to conduct their thought and action. It's like the digital equivalent of giving them AK and pickup trucks.
>>25601697seethe moar faggot
>>25601666>akshually, capitalism is le badHighest level marxist analysis
>>25601697I like that socialists version of a slur is calling someone an Uyghur, kulak etc, absolute scum.
>>25601697Imagine having a kid, raising it, and it ends up being an unlovable, soul-mangled cluster b schizoid because of microplastics. The only moment of reprieve you get from this lifelong burden is when his 4chan ban is up and he can post another nonsensical multiparagraph chimpout about trannies that nobody will read. Grim.
i say it again, they will kill you before giving you UBI, large amounts of the population are not required anymore
>>25601821Art is not required, vacations are not required, creating 100's of different kinds of cheese is not required, we do it anyway and we make money from it, pure materialist analysis, especially marxism, is dehumanizing and nonsensical, which is why it creates disaster.
>>25601697lol this nigga thinks the computer is talking to him
>>25601697Marxism is retarded but believing the "ai jesus" fearmongering is worse desu. Pathetic.
If the West had not tried to compensate for its low birth rate through mass immigration, automation would not pose such a significant problem. We could have relied on automation to address labor shortages and the shortfall in pension systems. Now it's too late. The Marxists and their condemnation of nationalism contributed to this, betraying the working classes for the sake of the interests of liberalism.
>>25601775They have some silly-ass filters on there. For example, Schwarzenegger filters to Schwarzeuyghur.
>>25601666Muslims are completely immune to capitalism. They dodged the whole “everything solid turns to air” thing, and are just as conservative and religious now as they were before capitalism. It didn’t hurt them one bit
>>25599219Yes, my substack :)https://perkeleperusing.substack.com/p/ai-and-seizing-the-means-of-production
>>25599219Capital covers all future and past inventions, read his rants about the cotton gin and weaving machines>new inventions never create value!>capital formation is only accomplished in history through taking by force!The Communist ideal per Capital would have been a machineless hunter-gatherer society with no private personal possessions allowed to accumulate for whatever reason, because obviously a guy clever enough to hunt 2 bison actually did not create any more value for the tribal economy than a guy who hunted 1 bison
>>25601666Look at the economic and financial metrics of modern Muslim governments, they are strongly socialist, i.e. oligarchical tyrannies cloaked in a veneer of capitalism
>>25599316Klagesanon you back?
>>25599368By molesting children?
>>25599222>"I cant breed"
>>25599219Capital ch 15
>>25599219Fanged Noumena
>>25602227>subjective theory of valueYou know this is austrian economics? Why not just abandon the communism at this point.
>>25599675Yes. Grundrisse, fragment on machines. Marx literally predicted algorythms automation.Also, reminder for those who didn't read Marx that "AI" is only an other form of constant Capital. It doesn't invalidate the tendency of the rate of profit to fall. On the contrary, it only increase the organic composition of labor, which cause the rate of profit to fall even lower. "AI", in Capitalism, is typical contradiction valorization/devalorization.
>>25602192Sure the Qatar, Dubai, are completely immune to Capitalism.
>>25602246And that's the contradiction valorization/devalorization. The two bisons caught with machines, now have the same value as the one before the use of machines.It seems wonderful, until value drops and drops until markets are completely oversaturated, and constant Capital cannot reproduce itself anymore, since in order to reproduce Capital, you have to be able to sell your product, which you can't if the markets are saturated.
>>25602329>childrenEngels did publicly condemn pederasty. In his book origin of family, private property and the State. As well as in his letter to Marx. "The paederasts [homosexual paedophiles] are beginning to count themselves, and discover that they are a power in the state. Only organisation was lacking, but according to this source it apparently already exists in secret. And since they have such important men in all the old parties and even in the new ones, from Rosing to Schweitzer, they cannot fail to triumph. Guerre aux cons, paix aus trous-de-cul[6] will now be the slogan. It is a bit of luck that we, personally, are too old to have to fear that, when this party wins, we shall have to pay physical tribute to the victors. But the younger generation! Incidentally it is only in Germany that a fellow like this can possibly come forward, convert this smut into a theory, and offer the invitation: introite[7], etc. Unfortunately, he has not yet got up the courage to acknowledge publicly that he is ‘that way’, and must still operate coram publico‘ from the front’, if not ‘going in from the front’ as he once said by mistake. But just wait until the new North German Penal Code recognises the droits du cul[8] then he will operate quite differently. Then things will go badly enough for poor frontside people like us, with our childish penchant for females. If Schweitzer could be made useful for anything, it would be to wheedle out of this peculiar honourable gentleman the particulars of the paederasts in high and top places, which would certainly not be difficult for him as a brother in spirit. "Letter to Karl Marx, June 22, 1869
>>25603094Qatar is literally an Islamist monarchy which enforces strict gender norms and is able to aggressively enforce Arab and Islamic culture within its borders. Capitalism had zero impact on it.
>>25603166Which of these gulf nations had the tiktok prostitution with de Sadian style balls, sex slavery and feces etc.?
>>25603099What the fuck are you babbling aboutI never mentioned any bison-hunting machinesIt's just a fact that one guy can be smarter at hunting bison and the other isn't, and thus that guy is more productive and should be rewarded more so that he continues to be extra productive for the good of the communityThis is what Marx and Engels (pretended?) not to understand, probably because they were useless trust fundie NEETs searching for a theory that explained why they weren't actually useless fucks and they were actually being cheated out of their rightful inheritance>The two bisons caught>now have the same value as the one beforeBison shitTwo bison can feed more people than one bison, that's just pure physics>which you can't if the markets are saturatedSo capitalism's worst failing is that it's too abundantly prosperous?Sufferingfromsuccess.jpgOnly a retarded fucking Commie would try to convince you that food shortages are ackshually a feature not a bug
>>25603177All of this existed pre-capitalism, sex slavery has been a thing in the Middle East forever.
>>25601648>How? Why would this be possible?>WAGES.from who?
>>25601769Never said anything about good or bad reading comprehensionlet midwit-kun>>25602192Yeah. Drinking, dating and partying in clubs is the epitome of religious conservatism. If you want an analysis of religion under capitalism, read On Jewish Question by Marx. Followed by Baudrillard's work to understand simularca. >>25602252>, they are strongly socialist, i.e. oligarchical tyrannies cloaked in a veneer of capitalismIf the state is not subjected to the people's rule then it's not even state socialist let alone any other kind of socialist. What you are describing is Islamo-fascism.
>>25603179huh?
>>25603262>subjected to the people's ruleWhen has that ever happened
>>25603279>What's a democracy?
>>25603205>pre-capitalismOH!!! "not my spechul type of capitalism!"It was never true capitalism. What I mean is that these filthy rich "Islamic" nations did what any and EVERY filthy rich people do enforced sick "gender norms" Sex slavery is a thing that follows capital, or money, gold, riches. "Islamic monarchy" to only a handful of rich scum.>>25603243Jailers. You don't know who controls wages?
>>25603368My point is that Marxist predictions on the effects of capitalism on religion didn’t pan out with Islam. They didn’t moderate, they didn’t let capitalism erode their practices. An Arab in Riyadh today and one who lived there in 1726 have the same lives, barring improved technology/medicine. Socially the society is the same. Marx looked at European Christians/Jews and thought their history was applicable to all faiths and that wasn’t true.
>>25603396>they didn’t let capitalism erode their practicesAnd my point was made that it did. Clearly.
>>25602526The point I was trying to make is that even if you reject LTV and most conventional dogmas of Marxism, the AI and robotics automation of almost all labor will still necessitate seizing and redistributing the means of production if we want the average person to prosper rather than starve.
>>25603337KEK. Do you honestly feel like you have a say in the country is run right now?
>>25603368>Jailers. You don't know who controls wages?idk what this means or to what extent you're being ironic
>>25603400Anyone who wants to openly leave Islam gets punished, even killed. Islamic practices like Ramadan and hijab and whatnot are strictly enforced. Insofar as they’ve been made to abandon the Islamic practice of slavery, I will concede pre-capitalist Islamic slavery has been abolished but as we both acknowledge slavery of a different type is widely practiced. Not much has changed. I’ll concede capitalism eroded Islam when we see large chunks of the Arab population becoming secular or atheist, like what happened with Christianity and the West. I don’t think that will ever happen though.
>>25603166>Qatar is literally an Islamist monarchy> Capitalism had zero impact on it.Good to know that workers in Qatar are actual serfs, and not wage workers.
>>25603417No I don't. I am aware that complete democracy is not possible in a system with Capitalism.
>>25599219it should destroy the thinking class, the bourgeois class, leaving only the working class and the ruling class left.
>An Arab in Riyadh today and one who lived there in 1726 have the same lives,Haha hahahahahahahttps://youtube.com/shorts/KL0yeqXf3h0?si=Oz_s_Q5PwGYzsodA
>>25603421>He's still wondering who controls the wagesHm>>25603448>large chunks of the Arab population becoming secular or atheistWell that happens too, but the thing about capital/mammon is that you can keep your old god while simultaneously worshipping it.What happened to The West was first, the Bible, no one but a special clique were allowed to read and preach from it till literacy skyrocketed and second they discovered reason.
>>25599668Wasn't Yemen Marxist for a while? Ba'athism was also related to socialism, although not really Marxian (almost a "national socialism," which the Germans have made a tricky phrase nowadays)
I'm so pleasantly surprised by the helpful responses on this thread, I should visit this place more often. Thanks for all the recs anons
>>25599303And Smith was writing in 18th century Scotland and his observations are just as relevant as ever, consider:"The interest of the dealers, however, in any particular branch of trade or manufactures, is always in some respects different from, and even opposite to, that of the public. To widen the market and to narrow the competition, is always the interest of the dealers. To widen the market may frequently be agreeable enough to the interest of the public; but to narrow the competition must always be against it, and can serve only to enable the dealers, by raising their profits above what they naturally would be, to levy, for their own benefit, an absurd tax upon the rest of their fellow-citizens. The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it.Our merchants and masters complain much of the bad effects of high wages in raising the price and lessening the sale of goods. They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits. They are silent with regard to the pernicious effects of their own gains. They complain only of those of other people.People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices."
>>25604320>They say nothing concerning the bad effects of high profits.We've heard nothing ELSE in economic propaganda for the last 2 decades. The result is a broken European industry, and a broke Europe.Nearly half the industry of every Western country not the USA is dictated by the government, not consumer choices. Or in simple terms: count for yourself how much your spending is dictated by the government, via taxes and services bought through taxes, and how much is truly in your control to seek alternatives. That's no longer a free market.No doubt Smith was describing the swing of the pendulum in one direction, but now it's gone too fucking far that way.
>>25599331The TESCREAL AI religion is by far the most repulsive movement I’ve ever encountered. I think every liberal, Muslim, Marxist, fascist, etc should unite to mass cull these people
>>25604099>Yemen was socialist So was Somalia, what of it? These places were fanatically Muslim before and are fanatically Muslim now. Marxism came and went and had no impact.
>>25604588Excuse me, did you just suggest the USA isn't dominated by government control? I've attached another maxim from Smith, and it applies just as much today as back then, the apparatus that merchants and masters use to protect their own interests is government. It's always one big club that the normal man ain't a part of.
This Maoist era sci fi film predicted robots and using science to change the planet’s environment.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rQhhL73dabo&ra=m
>>25604708For example, the massive extra restrictions during Covid helped corporations massively expand their profit margins, even in the vaunted USA.
>>25599219>the ongoing AI revolution?Nice cartoon. Do any of those exist IRL today (not in 4 years, today)
>>25604677Islam has very abnormal staying power
>>25599219I’ve written it, those with wisdom will find it.The essence of my thesis is that the worker, during this final transition phase to post scarcity, which will last approximately 200 years, will act as both laborer and owner, suffering both aspects of alienation—the alienation of laborer from the product of his lanorer, and the alienation of owner from the labor that produces his profits. The double alienation will be a cause of much unhappiness, but much wealth as well. Post scarcity will eventually arrive, but it will be a long 200 years. There will also be numerous terror attacks, school shooting type events, that sort of thing. Minds will break on an industrial scale.
>>25604767That’s my point! Islam’s staying power and the reality that Islamic societies continue as they always have, regardless of if they are feudal, capitalist, whatever proves Marx and Engels wrong. A Muslim in Afghanistan has the exact same worldview and ideology as one in London or Urumqi or Saudi Arabia. No alienation, no erosion of society or belief, the material world has no effect on them. I’ll put it in Marxist terms: their superstructure is completely unaffected by their base. A pre-industrial Muslim society in 1026 and whatever sci fi AI Muslim society exists in 3026 will be the same thing. Is this not a complete counter argument to Marx, who thought societies were shaped by their material conditions? The dude thought the world would follow Europe’s example, when it’s clear Europe was an outlier.
Read The Fragment on Machines, Marx's Capital (especially the sections on machinery and relative surplus value), Nick Dyer-Witheford's Cyber-Marx, and Aaron Bastani's Fully Automated Luxury Communism. Also look into Paul Mason's Postcapitalism, Srnicek's Platform Capitalism, and the autonomist Marxist tradition, especially the work of Antonio Negri and the concept of the general intellect. Matteo Pasquinelli's The Eye of the Master is particularly relevant for understanding how AI emerges from the historical organization and abstraction of human labor rather than simply appearing as some autonomous technological miracle.BUT the crucial thing is that AI exposes a contradiction that a lot of contemporary leftists seem almost pathologically incapable of confronting - the abolition of necessary human labor should be the POINT. We need to become more than our placement in the marketplace and reconnect with our own authentic identities and selves outside of a job. Not the preservation of wage labor as some sacred institution that must survive technological development indefinitely. The objective should be thinking bigger. The genuinely radical horizon is POST-LABOR. Not necessarily the literal disappearance of all human work, but the abolition of compulsory wage labor as the organizing principle of social existence. AI potentially makes that more materially conceivable, while simultaneously making the concentration of economic power catastrophically worse if existing property relations remain intact. The dialectic will inevitably respond. The fundamental antagonism is increasingly between the social character of intelligence production and the private ownership of the infrastructure through which that intelligence is deployed. AI models are trained on collective human cultural production and maintained through enormous networks of material and intellectual labor. Meanwhile the infrastructure and profit is concentrated in a handful of corporations. The technology is not inherently capitalist. Its ownership and deployment are political-economic questions. Open-source models, public ownership of the infrastructure, and universal access to increasingly automated productive capacity are vastly more interesting emancipatory projects than either corporate accelerationism or reflexive anti-technology Luddism.
>>25604716Maybe in China
The so-called rationalists are ironically engaging in a technological millenarianism masquerading as material analysis. The fatal error here is detaching this whole thing from materialism and assigning agency to the machine. The focus on the if the AI is "sentient" or "conscious," treating AI as an autonomous historical subject, as though technology develops independently of the material circumstances and property relations governing its production. It's idealism. Straight-up idealism, refuted long ago by Marx. They've replaced divine providence with exponential scaling curves and called it rationalism. It's a means of production, and who owns the means of production? You guessed it. Our buddies Peter, Elon, Dario, Sam and the gang. The friends of Jeff and Donald and company. The same handful of corporations currently spending hundreds of billions positioning themselves as indispensable intermediaries between humanity and its own collective intellectual inheritance. AI salvationists and the AI doomers reproduce the exact same ideological mystification. Detachment of material in favor of the ideal. The AI treated as a quasi-supernatural force. Think of it as technological fetishism. The real question isn't "does the computer have a soul" it's who controls the data centers? Who controls the supply chains? Who owns the models? Who controls the interfaces through which everyone else accesses the tool of artificial intelligence? Who captures the productivity gains and surplus value? What happens to workers displaced by automation? Can communities operate these systems independently? Can public institutions provide computational infrastructure as a commons rather than forcing everyone into permanent subscription relationships with private gatekeepers? What will be its effect on culture? The revolutionary potential here is real, but it depends on the systems of production and property relations. AI could help destroy the material basis of compulsory wage labor, or it could become the greatest apparatus of economic enclosure and behavioral control ever constructed and a vehicle for what is in essence a techno-feudalism. Both trajectories are compatible with increasingly capable AI. The difference is political.This is where a pragmatic post-left position becomes necessary. We don't need to worship Marx. We need to identify the material structures preventing technological abundance from translating into individual autonomy and then actually dismantle them. The ultimate objective must be to maximize abundance for humanity's interest and free humanity from necessity, post-scarcity, the material abundance we have generated used for humanitarian ends.
>>25599425not the same anon , but that same anon is more so refersing the idea that they do have general inteligence or will soon enough.and even if he is full of it, he does belive this process is not only inebitable but even inebitable in a period of around 500 years no matter what.so that is the position he is arguing about , what about that position.not that you are wrong for saying things as you think they are , I would just find your opinion interesting.
>>25599219yes
>>25604807>their superstructure is completely unaffected by their basePure delusion. Even the hijab mandate in Iran won't last a generation.>A pre-industrial Muslim society in 1026 and whatever sci fi AI Muslim society exists in 3026 will be the same thingOk. This is bordering on trolling but I will give you the benefit of doubt because you probably can't tell the difference between authenticity and society wide larp. >The dude thought the world would follow Europe’s example, when it’s clear Europe was an outlier.Every single place on the planet that has been touched by capitalist labour relations, has experienced some form of socialist action. You may claim that Marx was wrong about it in current world but you'd have to take a postmodernism lense for it. Which would again turn Islam into another privatised alienated larp of post structural capitalism. Much like the tradcath trend. White guys on this board converting to Islam is a good example.
>>25604807> A Muslim in Afghanistan has the exact same worldview and ideology as one in London or Urumqi or Saudi ArabiaDelusional
I don't understand why everyone who argues llms are not intelligent refuses to see that some other ai model might become more intelligent. It's almost like a childish stance and is especially puzzling to see in people who've lived during a relatively intense innovation period. I can believe that the iphone 56 or the samsung 100 or the toyota model 5000 will improve some obscure feature and I'll even pay for it even though I don't actually need it but that ends when we consider llms will never be intelligent even though today they can order food for me when they couldn't six months ago. It's the laziest and most dishonest positions you can assume when arguing about ai.
>>25604708>did you just suggest the USA isn't dominated by government controlEven as a committed capitalist, I would say, not quite yet. Of all the major economies, the US economy is the least government-controlled, such as it is.>the apparatus that merchants and masters use to protect their own interests is governmentCareer politicians dominate our governments and it is greatly in their interest is to dominate private capital and commerce, in order to fund their own objectives. This is even older than Adam Smith, probably as old as the concept of government itself.The idea that government is only a tool of businessmen and has no will of its own is a myth put about by the people in government who are trying to foist their sins on others.>I would've been an honest wo/man, really, it's just that (((THEY))) bribed me to be dishonest, it's really THEIR fault>just give me more independent power and I will be honest and I will honestly do what's best for the nation and not myself, trust me bro
>>25604713The restrictions were probably kneejerk reactions by panicking retards.But the Covid19 airdrops were not, as with all the welfare programmes of the last decades. Because the Government owns little production facilities of its own, creating huge amounts of fiat (i.e. borrowing money from the future) and airdropping it to people for them to buy stuff with could only ever have ended up with one outcome: people buying stuff from the producers of goods and services, and said producers receiving the usual profits as a result. Where else would cash flow?Furthermore, since the production of goods and services would be slashed due to many workers dying, becoming ill, or unable to work due to movement restrictions, there would be both a supply shock as well as oversupply of currency.We had warned about this but when we raised the subject, we were shouted down (sometimes literally) by the bleeding-heart do-gooders who said we were "heartless" and "unfeeling" for restricting the aid to be given out. Think of the starving kiddies, eh.Well here we are. And who's really to blame: the corporations which buy and sell stuff at market prices as per the usual supply-demand curve, or the Governments (all of them, more or less) which passed the Covid19 relief laws that created this situation?
>>25599219and lesswrong
>>25599760you are a retarded lib, no different to the 13 yo who watches hasan and debatebros his school buddies. you have no idea of how the structures of society work and are driven by what the newest lib pundit talking point is.what is your point here? that the ai needs a prompt to work? 1. it doesnt 2. even if it does, so what?do you believe a machine can take a mckinsey consultants job, if not now then in the near future? if yes, then we are fucked and something must be done. either become a luddite or do some l/acc thing, this lib hedging is retarded and objectively wrong. lol
>>25603179>he thinks Marxism is the affirmation that everyone is the same and produces the sameYou’re fucking retarded dude. Imagine being so committed to opposing something you do not understand at all.
>>25605019>Even the hijab mandate in Iran won't last a generation.This is cope. Why would it go away, especially now after the IRGC has deepened its control of the country? Hijab mandates are ultimately minor too. I’ll start reconsidering my position when apostasy laws are repealed across the Muslim world and Muslim societies as a whole start secularizing. > Every single place on the planet that has been touched by capitalist labour relations, has experienced some form of socialist actionDisproven by the examples of Saudi Arabia and Qatar. Insofar as the masses there are politically active it is in support of Islamism not socialism.
Now that the dust has settled. Which one spoke the truth?
>>25599760Doesn't matter if the bot is conscious. That's irrelevant. You have to understand the architectures through which the power becomes embedded in everyday life. What matters is what will you do about the oligarchs. You can analyze and diagnose all you want but if you don't have answers or think UBI is enough to solve the problem and won't just result in formalizing the techno-feudalism you fear, you won't change anything.
>>25605019>Even the hijab mandate in Iran won't last a generation.hasn't it been in effect since 1979? Shit we just watched the people of Afghanistan literally drop their guns and run away instead of fighting against the Taliban, 5 years now and there's effectively zero resistance to them reinstating all their skullduggery.
It would be really nice to pay less in taxes, property tax, or social security contributions on every single euro, since they serve absolutely no purpose other than to prop up the useless eaters. It wouldn't be so bad to privatize everything after all. Full Jewish technofascist state.
>>25605605Bakunin.
>>25599219Capital Volume 1 length of the working day.
>>25605391>no argument
>>25606564>useless eatersI agree. We should stop giving loans to capitalists from public money in banks. Stop giving them bail outs when their adventures fail. Stop subsidizing their "enterprise". And basically take away all their private property and nationalise it. That would certainly stop all the useless eating these people do.
>>25607022>t. Pol Pot
>>25605442>Why would it go away, especially now after the IRGC has deepened its control of the country? Because the new generation overwhelmingly opposes it. And they oppose it precisely because they are involved in global capitalist relations, methods of production and material life. >I’ll start reconsidering my position when apostasy laws are repealed across the Muslim world These are never invoked unless politically relevant for the Islamic powers that be. >Muslim societies as a whole start secularizing.Most of them are already functionally secular. Only half of them are proper islamic states and even less have clergy rule. They cannot even implement Sharia to it's fullest extent, because again, they are dictated by capitalistic relations of production. >Insofar as the masses there are politically activeThey are monarchies. So political activism is somewhat irrelevant but I could be wrong. Either way, being Islamists does not disqualify them from seeking socialist policies and actions in a capitalist environment so your dichotomy is false. Because as I said, Islam, being a larp, is divorced from economic realities.
>>25607077>These are never invokedBecause the vast majority of the population is too scared or brainwashed to attempt itI live in mudslimeville and I can tell you that easily 20 or 30% would leave in a heartbeat if they weren't threatened with imprisonment or even death>Most of them are already functionally secular. Only half of them are proper islamic states and even less have clergy rule. They cannot even implement Sharia to it's fullest extent, because again, they are dictated by capitalistic relations of production.Which makes them functionally Communists, with all the perils thereof. You think that's any better? The threat from them might well be greater than from the USSR. Certainly there are lots more of them>They are monarchiesYou wishDon't forget that Iran was overthrown by jihadis, and the various Pali terrorists tried overthrowing nearly all the Islamic monarchies too. That is why they and Islamic jihadis are proscribed in Islamic monarchies, even though their aims are sympathetic.>Islam, being a larp, is divorced from economic realitiesAgain, that just makes them basically Marxists but Allah-inspired.
>>25605092There are differences but they share key similarities. Even the most secular normie Muslim hates Western influence and supports Palestine for example. None tolerate criticism or blasphemy no matter where they are
>>25604845>We need to become more than our placement in the marketplace and reconnect with our own authentic identities and selves outside of a job. Not the preservation of wage labor as some sacred institution that must survive technological development indefinitely. Yes, but the problem is that no culture or society under capitalism actually has the will to do this, especially not when you have Marxists itself proudly declaring they wish to abolish culture, gender, nations, borders, family, etc entirely. How are we supposed to focus on developing our own communities and cultures in a world where we’ve abolished wage labor when nobody, not when the Marxists themselves, has any interest in doing this? If the point is that abolishing wage labor gives us time to focus on artistic and cultural pursuits so then why are we also using AI to automate our art and desecrate our cultures? That is the fundamental issue. AI creates a mass flattening of civilization that frankly could only be combatted with war and extreme regulation.
>>25599219If you are interested in speculating about the future of AI and its implications, Marxism is easily one of the dumbest places you can possibly look. Its record of predictive power is failure after failure after failure. Literally the ONLY reason to ever read anything Marxist is to understand why insane destructive revolutionaries and activists hold the retarded and incoherent positions beliefs that they act upon. It also helps to prepare you ready and not intimidated when they deploy their standard fallacy stack (logic chopping, invocation of pretentious jargon, appeal to complexity, argumentum verbosum).
>>25605605Both of those quotes are reasonable claims but neither are reasonable summaries of the respective ideologies.
>>25605019>Every single place on the planet that has been touched by capitalist labour relations, has experienced some form of socialist action.No. It's not reasonable to attribute every single labor movement against capitalist excess as inherently Marxist or Socialist. The American progressive movement of the early 20th century was labor-focused but not Socialist or Marxist. Marxists like to pretend that any value system other than "unfettered Capitalism" is Socialism, but this is just not true. So while I would agree that Marxism is explicitly a cancer on Capitalism, it's one specific religious-ideological mindset fueled by a combination of collectivist, materialist jealousy and rhetorical sleight-of-hand.
>>25607077The new generation that opposes it got mowed down, multiple times, and will not be able to override the political desires of the Iranian clergy and IRGC.>Most of them are already functionally secular. What is this cope? Most Muslim majority countries, including the big ones like Indonesia and Pakistan, either have harsh civil penalties for leaving Islam or straight up death penalty. > They cannot even implement Sharia to its fullest extent, because again, they are dictated by capitalistic relations of production.Saudi Arabia is as capitalist as it gets and was a Sharia state to the max for decades.Islamism and socialism are in direct conflict, you can’t pursue one with the other. Islamists will side with Muslim bourgeoisie over non-Muslim peoples everytime
>>25599222Sadly, that's not how it works.
>>25605118>Career politicians dominate our governments and it is greatly in their interest is to dominate private capital and commerce, in order to fund their own objectives. This is even older than Adam Smith, probably as old as the concept of government itself.>The idea that government is only a tool of businessmen and has no will of its own is a myth put about by the people in government who are trying to foist their sins on others.Again, I think you are just fundamentally ignorant of how different countries operate. For instance, in China, career politicians can be said to be above "private" wealth holders, since they can exercise power over them. In the USA, however, it is very clearly the reverse, Sheldon Adelson exercised more power over the US government at his peak of power than any single politician at the same time, and I would say by orders of magnitude. In short, the trillionaire/billionaires hold the highest power in the USA while politicians like Xi hold the most power in China, and if you can't recognize that, you have zero understanding of anything.
>>25605605Change peoples' minds now and the system changes. Change the system, and future peoples' minds will be changed without them knowing.
>>25608261Actual Islamists have no reservations about attacking Arab monarchies and dictatorships, that’s exactly why those countries crack down on them hardcore. They’re the number 1 fear of every Arab leader. I think leftists just don’t like to admit that yes, the biggest resistance to American imperialism and techno-capital this century has bin Laden, Khameini and Sinwar. Like them or not there’s no other group that bombs data centers and drags the West into quagmires than militant Muslims regardless of them also being anti-communist. China sure as fuck will never lay a finger on America voluntarily
This technology can only be trusted when placed in the hands of a centralized Marxist-Leninist state. We must see Anthropic, OpenAI, xAI, etc. nationalized without compensation and placed under the absolute authority of the State Planning Commission and a rigorous system of Cybernetics informed by Stanford Beer and Paul Cockshott's theories. The primary friction of the socialist planned economy has always been the speed of processing material balances across thousands of state enterprises (VEBs). High-capacity computational algorithms would allow instantaneous calculation of input-output tables, optimizing the distribution of raw materials across geography. Waste would be systematically eliminated. Allende had this vision with less advance computational infrastructure, and the CIA of course intervened. In a socialist economy, increased productivity through automation produces not unemployment (for we have job programs and guarantees) but leisure. The Vanguard Party would utilize automated processing to radically reduce the statutory working week to 30 or 25 hours, freeing the socialist worker to pursue higher technical education, physical culture, philosophy, and the arts. Under socialism, technology elevates man from a beast of repetitive burden into an overseer of production, a conscious participant in the labor process to defeat alienation. Because fascism needed to maintain a monopoly. In the context of the United States, this technology is used by capitalists for capitalist ends and regression, a demonstrative fascist alliance between business, technocrats and capital, and is a danger. In the hands of a Marxist state? It would lead to human flourishing.
>>25608695How does this compare with China having open-source models and unleashing endless slop on their society with no concern
>>25608703The culprit of slop largely comes from the capitalist West or the 3rd world who also follow capitalist market logic, trying to "make it big" by appealing to decadent Western audiences (boomers with dementia and so on)
>>25605605Marx because 90% of all people do not really have a "mind". They only have some sort of socially pressured "hivemind". So for the vast majority, there is no mind. Only hivemind. There is only the system. Their mind is the system, and the system is their mind. So by changing the system (the correct term is mode of production), you actually change the hivemind of the 90%. The mode of production, if it works, is their survival. And the production and perpetuation of their immediate needs. If you touch it, they become very aggressive. There is no need for morality, social equality, justice here. Only the production and reproduction of the immediate needs. They would much prefer a tyrannical mode of production that works well, than one that empowers them, but with a lower productivity. But yes if you can change the social relations of production, but still keep productivity, even increase it, and prove it works, there is no reason that they would oppose, at least after having seen for themselves that it works. In the end, the social relations of production could change, not because it's more "socially just", but because it's the only way to maintain productivity. That's basically what Marx predicted by the way.
>>25608281>In the USA, however, it is very clearly the reverseIt's a spectrum and the one thing you are correct about is that it's a tug of war of power between private capital and public bureaucrat. But although you are correct that far, you insist on seeing the world in black and white and thinking that just because in the USA private capital has more power and freedom in many ways, they control all aspects of the country like a cartoon villain. (Which just goes to show what level of maturity your mind operates at.) The degree of how much power which side has is difficult to measure, but some idea can be gained from looking at taxation levels, and revenues and assets under control. This is Finance 101. And furthermore the Government has a trump card: they can imprison people who don't obey their laws. Private capital has a trump card(s) also however: they can leave or choose not to work (which is why European industry is so moribund) thus denying the government revenue. But this is of course a kind of mutually-assured destruction option.The most current example of this actually is unfolding in California right now. A significant number of high net worth taxpayers left the state over a proposed tax hike. (The fact that the tax bill even made it this far tells you who has control of the government in Commiefornia, the bureaucrats or the businessmen.) Two economists projected by survey that California has suffered a net loss in tax revenue that cannot ever be recouped even if the bill passes, unless they can somehow woo back taxpayers.And before you scream>IT'S ONLY A PROJECTION IT CAN'T BENorway already reported real losses from trying the same thing in YA 2022. Taxpayers left the country and they lost billions in taxes.All this probably goes over your head however. So you have a choice. Pick up an actual finance textbook and learn how money really works and how people actually react in real financial situations. Or don't, and stick to your cartoon-tier Marxist fantasies. Your choice.
>>25608904>if you can change the social relations of production, but still keep productivityAnd there Marxism always fails.
>>25609543And this is where AI can come in possibly, we use the AI to solve the calculation problem
>>25609546Pfft. Sure.
>>25608710>turdies aren't demented capitalist audiences, only the WestBuddy, the biggest consumer of paid Ai sloppa in both text and video form is China. For the former, just ask /wng/.
>>25609543>>25609546Done. But the elites actually prefer wage slavery, inequality, soul crushing poverty and despotism.
>>25609546Funny. That's one of Asimov's last Multivac shorts. He pointed out that if you did that, entrust centralised economic planning to AI, you would be utterly incapable of measuring whether the outcome was successful or not. You would have to take it on faith that any crises that happen is not the fault of AI, or in service to some higher plan, "AI works in mysterious ways".* In his story he further underlined this conclusion by showing that AI might even make deliberate mistakes so you think you are in control and "fixing" AI. In other words, the same as the machines' plans in Matrix 2.*Of course he also hinted at the godlike level of control this would give AI. Strangely for an atheist, he constantly highlighted the inherent Munchausen Trilemma in atheist dogma.
>>25609553>people are not inequal okay a garbage-man contributes as much to society as a doctor!!
>>25609570>The guy who picks up garbage deserves to live in squalor >The basketball star a millionaire! The hours one puts into his community is what is actually important.Economic equality isn't such a bad thing, when you rip out the ability to bribe state officials, buy up islands, buy a tenement to force people to pay you for having bought it in the first place, oh and kidnapping children for the purposes of raping and eating them. Sacrifice those privileges and yes, we can indeed house everyone, even the schizophrenic homeless could receive adequate healthcare. Alleviating the economic inequality would also alleviate the legal inequality in the world.
>>25609562There's a lot of talk already in the AI world at the moment about having AIs audit themselves, designing their own systems and so on. This trajectory seems plausible. No accountability or chain of command.
>>25599331The dude is actually smart and absolutely worth reading. You'd be right to be weary of taking his opinions on a lot of shit too seriously, but dismissing his writings entirely is genuinely unwise. The way that his sequences are fairly easy to read and do a good job of dealing with philosophical issues that are highly relevant to modern science and tech in novels ways mean there's actually not much reason to not read him if you do have real interest in philosophy.
>>25609540>Which just goes to show what level of maturity your mind operates atSadly this comprises about 99% of 4chan comments now, and without the humor and playful irony of the old days
>>25608904>Marx because 90% of all people do not really have a "mind".>They only have some sort of socially pressured "hivemind".The irony here is that Marxism (along with its poison arrow postmodernism) does more than perhaps any other modern philosophy else to murder intellectual independence and trap people into hivemind thinking.It is true that humans have innately tribal tendencies and religions seem to be ways to organize efficient thought and behavior in large societies. But the western academic tradition before Marxism prized truth. The social and industrial revolutions took that core and spread education and training in critical thinking to the general population, vastly increasing the fraction of active "minds" and people capable of rigorous thought and writing.Marxism has reversed all that, destroying the essential intellectual foundations of free and independent thought, and trapping people in intellectual prisons of collectivist identity rhetoric.
>>25609723Marxism does not say, “we are all one, we are all the same.” It says, “this notion that we can be free by buying and selling one another’s time is absurd.” You guys always make these lazy FOX news level attacks. It’s ironic because you’re saying Marxism kills thought but there is no thought in your post, it’s Cold War era propaganda. The socialist project failed. But if you can’t see how market relations are not really free and that you are being used then I think that is very unnfortunate.
>>25609723Marxism is mostly a theoretical lens to analyze the mechanisms of capitalism and production relations, not necessarily a prescription in itself. Marx saw the revolutionary uprisings as something that resulted from a historical cycle of the contradictions in the capitalist system and considering human consciousness desire for recognition and independence (Hegelian master slave dialectic etc). Class consciousness is necessary, and if conditions were intolerable or unmanageable enough, due to the contradictions of capitalism that seeks profit seeking over social welfare and working class needs, the working class may reach a point where it is intolerable, and the socialist stage occurs, the workers attempt to seize production and so on
>>25609737>>25609753Tell me this - how does an individual avoid being subordinated to a collective in a Marxist society that prioritizes class as the primary identifier and social role? If you don't agree with the rest of the union, or the party, or the representative claiming to speak for your interests as the "worker", what recourse do you have?
>>25609546>let’s let a computer control every aspect of our society so that we can be free!This is the retard side of Marxism imo the positive project of socialism. And this is the side rightists fixate on and they usually have virtually no understanding of Marx’s critique of classical economics and liberalism.
>>25609737>Right on cue, the Marxist starts spamming incoherent fallaciesYou see no thought in my post because we are in YOUR intellectual prison. Because you lack the essential foundations of genuine truth-oriented thinking, all you can do is wander in circles around the intrinsic flaws and proven failures of your chosen philosophy as you go through the motions of making arguments.There are dozens, hundreds maybe more ideas and ways of thinking about the world, its markets, populations, religions and social structures that could be interesting or relevant, but you cannot perceive them or discuss them meaningfully because you filter everything through the perverted lens of a cancerous brain-melting ideology that never should have survived WW2, much less the Cold War.
>>25609753>Marxism is mostly a theoretical lens to analyze the mechanisms of capitalism and production relationsNo, it's not. It's a materialistic religion (and a terrible one at that) masquerading as an intellectual framework.
>>25609758>commie drone #1: hey did you hear, the Houseboat Painters' Union voted that we need to spend an extra hour each day painting boats in preparation for the big houseboat festival next month>commie drone #2: what! a *five hour* workday?!? my individuality is getting crushed!!
>>25609758You are already subordinated to a collective - a collective owned and “farmed” by private individuals to aggrandize wealth. We live in the wealthiest society imaginable and yet we have to work 40 hours a week and they even grudge us food and healthcare. If you don’t fight back against that you are a cuck. I know that left politics is Quixotic - Marx himself can teach you why DSA syndicalism is hopeless. Still we have to do something and we need to rid ourselves of this fucking retarded market logic that treats people like things. The power of Marxism is that it shows you that capitalism is not inevitable, it is not “natural”, this is not what nature really is.
>>25609769>I can think about the world however I want! Therefore I am free! Fuck you cringe trannie Marxoid I fucking hate you!Grim.
>>25609562None of these AI people are really atheists. Literally all of them are motivated by a desire to obtain god-like powers and recreate heaven on earth with immortal life. They are actually more religious than the average religious person today.
>>25603106Engels was also a massive feminist so what of it? Perfect ideologues don't exist. Seek God.
>>25609824You wouldn't know, you can't argue with sound premises. So of course, to you, it all looks like nonsense, that's all you are trained to see.
Oh, how I abhor Marxism. The general public should be on their knees thanking Providence that we allow them to have the privilege of access to intelligence.
>>25609824Just, for example, we are talking about AI.If you understand principles of markets, value and property and capital you can analyze and understand actual dynamics in the world, datacenters and GPUs, who values what. You can analyze the fields where AI adds efficiency, who is capturing the economic value, and where there may be friction with specific value systems. You use the various theories of government, politics, religion/culture and human nature to understand and predict the behaviors of world leaders and governments.In many cases, the now-centuries-old concept of "Capitalism" is insufficient to understand the modern economy. You need newer, more modern and more sophisticated concepts and intellectual frameworks to understand what's actually happening, what markets and governments are actually doing and how it affects real people. Meanwhile, Marxist economic ideas were failures even by 19th century standards, and all that's left is nothing but a pseudo-scientific intellectual circle-jerk with no observable purpose except for tricking retards into handing over political power to despots.
>>25610075But none of us are orthodox Marxists in the sense you assume. Even before Lenin Marxists were critiquing Marx. It’s not a dogma. The fact is if you categorically reject Marx you are ipso facto affirming an inhuman status quo. Read Lukacs “What Is Orthodox Marxism?”> THIS question, simple as it is, has been the focus of much discussion in both proletarian and bourgeois circles. But among intellectuals it has gradually become fashionable to greet any profession of faith in Marxism with ironical disdain. Great disunity has prevailed even in the ‘socialist’ camp as to what constitutes the essence of Marxism, and which theses it is ‘permissible’ to criticise and even reject without forfeiting the right to the title of ‘Marxist’. In consequence it came to be thought increasingly ‘unscientific’ to make scholastic exegeses of old texts with a quasi-Biblical status, instead of fostering an ‘impartial’ study of the ‘facts’. These texts, it was argued, had long been ‘superseded’ by modern criticism and they should no longer be regarded as the sole fount of truth.> If the question were really to be formulated in terms of such a crude antithesis it would deserve at best a pitying smile. But in fact it is not (and never has been) quite so straightforward. Let us assume for the sake of argument that recent research had disproved once and for all every one of Marx’s individual theses. Even if this were to be proved, every serious ‘orthodox’ Marxist would still be able to accept all such modern findings without reservation and hence dismiss all of Marx’s theses in toto – without having to renounce his orthodoxy for a single moment. Orthodox Marxism, therefore, does not imply the uncritical acceptance of the results of Marx’s investigations. It is not the ‘belief’ in this or that thesis, nor the exegesis of a ‘sacred’ book. On the contrary, orthodoxy refers exclusively to method. It is the scientific conviction that dialectical materialism is the road to truth and that its methods can be developed, expanded and deepened only along the lines laid down by its founders. It is the conviction, moreover, that all attempts to surpass or ‘improve’ it have led and must lead to over-simplification, triviality and eclecticism.
>>25610088(Cont)Also I would not even call myself a Marxist at all. But to say he was flat out wrong is to say the present age is right. Like his critiques of capitalism really are valuable even if there are logical and factual problems with them. Marx’s dialectical thinking underestimates capital’s ability to reconstitute and repair itself. For instance his theory of the business cycle was at least partways fixed by capitalism itself with central banks and smarter monetary policy. He thought there would be a boom-bam conflict. I suspect the end will be more autophagic.
>>25610088>But none of us are orthodox Marxists in the sense you assume.It doesn't matter.There has been nothing of unique value descended from the Marxist school of thought and a whole lot of corrosive, brain-damaging nonsense. For any given topic of study, you are better off avoiding any Marxist influence entirely. Any hypothetically useful conclusion you might have reached via Marxism, you could have arrived at without Marxism more efficiently and with more clarity.> The fact is if you categorically reject Marx you are ipso facto affirming an inhuman status quo.Nope. Completely, totally and objectively wrong. This is one of those category of lies that Marxists always deploy. Whatever "human" element might exist in Marxism, existed previously in numerous other value systems (Christianity, for example). Thus Marxism does not deserve credit for it, nor does the Marxist position add any unique insight (or else Marxists themselves would be able to explain their positions with simple clarity rather than the endless pilpul).A Capitalist system tempered by Christian values is in no way Marxist, and Marxist analysis does not allow for any greater understanding than classical Western Analytic Philosophy. Meanwhile, marinating in Marxism fills your head with fallacies and interferes with your ability to reason properly about numerous other fields.
>>25610111>Like his critiques of capitalism really are valuable even if there are logical and factual problems with them.No, they really aren't. They don't lead anywhere interesting or useful. If you want to critique modern capitalism, do it with a rigorous empirical framework and a vetted, coherent moral framework.Literally the only reason to read Marx in 2026 is to understand the cultists themselves and where their bad ideas come from.
>>25610130>There has been nothing of unique value descended from the Marxist school of thought and a whole lot of corrosive, brain-damaging nonsense.All of continental philosophy is in dialogue with Marx! Punk rock was in dialogue with Marx! What a fucking stupid thing to say, I’m sorry anon. Thinking doesn’t have a “value”. We are assigned a value, even a numerical price, by le market. You think so materialistically, like thinking is a tool you go out and use to get/find things - this is also ironically true of Marxism and is a flaw in it.> Nope. Completely, totally and objectively wrong. This is one of those category of lies that Marxists always deploy. Whatever "human" element might exist in Marxism, existed previously in numerous other value systems (Christianity, for example).So you think we can critique and get beyond all our problems except wage slavery. But it is slavery. Humans have always “worked” but not like this. Our own work is being stolen from is and then rained down on us in the form of shit.>nope. Too bad. That’s just the way it is.
>>25609974>Noooooo working class people should not have control over their labour. >Noooooo the resources of a nations shouldn't be controlled by it's peopleWhat causes this evil in commie haters? How much of a teacher's pet syndrome one needs to have to lick moneyed boots like that
>>25609753Marx was absolutely correct about Capitalism. This is what lolberts do not understand. Unfettered unleashed capitalism would collapse within two decades. That's why we have central banks and monetary/financial policy and welfare systems. Marx's flaw was his lack of foresight to see that systems could be put in place to not allow Capitalism to implode in on itself and maintain elite class power and control over their wageslaves. That still did not stop capitalism from giving us the 2008 economic crises, the COVID crises and other disruptions that create unemployment, poverty, slavery and homelessness within decades of neoliberal policy and mass privatisation. Lolberts and other rightoid retards, who criticise modern capitalism for not being "free" enough should kiss jewish banker feet daily that their this system is allowed to exist at all.
>>25610232In the coming Fichtean-Kantian world state worked out according to Fichte’s vision in his Foundation of Natural Right, socialism with autistic characteristics, all rightists will be sent to government hospitals and given lobotomies by obese black single mothers.>you jes’ hol’ still now, this don’ hurt but a bit
>>25609540You are falling for pure theater. Even if the California wealth tax passes (still a toss up), it amounts to a token gesture. 5% is basic market fluctuation, a billionaire expects to see his net worth fluctuate that much on a near daily basis. Again, all of the billionaires in that state receive massively more benefit from the government than if they paid that 5% wealth tax every single year.Also, in terms of Norway, it does represent a country where the government still has the reins, and chasing globalists leeches out of your country may represent a temporary loss of investment, it ensures a healthy country where the focus is on sustainability of the economy and citizenry, not an opportunity for international conglomerate to bleed it dry and disenfranchise the native population. Norway's population are among the most healthy, most educated, and more productive per capita of anywhere on Earth. Private capital would rather dismantle all the government programs that enable that (such as the government's controlling interest in the biggest oil and gas company in the country) in pursuit of privatizing all the gains away from the public.Monetary policy and taxation are tools to an end. Either they are used to serve special interests, or they are used to serve the interests of the public, of the nation itself. Again, you already concede that there are two opposing poles here that are in a perpetual struggle for the output of the nation, but then claim I am immature for "black and white thinking"? You contradict yourself. Also, the China example is useful for a second reason, the government can have tyrannical authoritarian power over the market, and international corporations are still willing to bend over backwards to kiss the pinkie ring of Xi just for access to the market. The biggest lie ever told is that private industry won't tolerate intrusive government. Natural resources and a pool of potential workers and customers will always be attractive.And lastly, you can't exactly be expected to be taken seriously while unironically using a word like "Commiefornia". You sound like a 12 year old.
>muh china>muh human nature>muh everyone the same*yawn*
>>25599236I gave this watch, it was 2hours of summarising nick land with commie lingo mixed inkill yourself
>>25610717>>25610387That's all well and good, but incentives and risk can't be eliminated. The game and market logic is unavoidable. When people don't have the drive to actually cultivate some kind of excellence, they just look for an ideology that promises to drag everyone down to the same level. It's way easier to say that history is just a long list of grievances than to actually deal with how insignificant you are in the grand scheme of things.
>>25610739non sequiturs and the usual fallacies i predicted right on cue. thanks for the demonstration
>>25610170>Can only understand the concept of "value" in materialist market terms>Marx is the only possible critique of "wage slavery"You are in Marx's intellectual prison and it's clear you will never escape in this lifetime.Why gullible people should not read Marx, Exhibit A: (You).>>25610252>Marx was absolutely correct about Capitalism.Any points where Marx is "correct" about Capitalism are trite and better made by various intellectual disciplines. The American progressive movement that successfully pushed back against the fallout of rapid capitalist industrialization to establish worker reforms to improve the lives and happiness of the working class was not in any way Marxist. It was driven by a combination of philosophies and moral frameworks like Christianity, Pragmatism, Utilitarianism, and Civic Optimism.Marxism wipes your mind and ruins your ability to understand and synthesize any of these alternative frameworks and philosophies. It is all-encompassing brain rot.
>>25610739Nationalism resolves that dialectic
>>25610717The left cant meme
>>25610771Except it doesn't. How does nationalism eliminate the concept of economic risk, or refute game theory? Nationalism is another collectivism. I'm an individualist, I don't subscribe to any of your totalizing theories be it nationalism, fascism, communism, whatever else. Wherever we're going, our power is in ourselves, to reclaim what it means to be human, and the human being is the self, the individual, reconnect with who you are instead of just what role you fill.
>>25610776you will be crushed like a bug
>>25599770They also had an incredibly large amount of people who believed in mediums and supernatural powers.Hell, the government even spent money researching telepathy.
>>25610726>Nick Land, but not drug-fried brains or zoomer-brained Skibbity enjoyer>"I watched this and was thoroughly INFORMED! kys!"Which are you?
>>25610739This seems like such a low energy reply, so I'll just refer you back to Adam Smith outlining how you can't ever have "incentives and risks" in "the game and market logic" without it devolving into a class based struggle where the owners of capital and land conspire against the public for their own class's supremacy.>>25604320
>>25610771Nationalism is not surviving the 21st century or AI
I don't care about AI anymore I just want niggers and jews goneIt's too late since we're getting genocided so I hope everyone fucking suffers forever, amen
>>25610387>it amounts to a token gesture. 5% is basic market fluctuation, a billionaire expects to see his net worth fluctuate that much on a near daily basisRemind me again what's the capital gains yield of an S&P500 company in America?and you're saying a market-dependent fluctuation is exactly equivalent to the certainty of taxation?if you're right, then tell you what, let's peg your tax rate at a fixed percentage of your income, and we'll make your salary a floating rate determined by the market? since to you it's all the same thing really.>Again, all of the billionaires in that state receive massively more benefit from the government than if they paid that 5% wealth tax every single yearDo they though?also: it's only a very light straw, that camel can carry a far heavier burden...>it ensures a healthy country where the focus is on sustainability of the economy and citizenry, not an opportunity for international conglomerate to bleed it dry and disenfranchise the native populationmere rhetoric which overlooks that the results prove that it is economically unsustainable>Norway'seconomy is built entirely on keeping a massive amount of oil and gas to themselves, and investing the proceedsTHEY are the private equity "leeches": all they do is use their oil and gas money to buy up companies which other people builtdon't believe me? go look up how much of the Norwegian sovereign fund returns originate from oil and gas, and how much originates from their ownership of stocks in companies built and managed by othersor in short, the Norwegian "socialist" model only works if your government can sell 1 million dollars worth of petroleum and gas per capita (historic sales to date) and invest the proceeds in the American S&P 500.if you met such a person, you wouldn't hesitate to call them trust fund babies who've never actually produced useful goods and servicesbut somehow it's different if they're the Norwegian Government?>you can't exactly be expected to be taken seriously while unironically using a word like "Commiefornia". You sound like a 12 year oldit's an epithet that isn't pertinent to the logical reasoning of my post, so who cares?IMO you can't be expected to be taken seriously if you're unable to isolate and discuss the rationale of the debate alone, and let distractions of language turn you away from discussing the meat of the matter
>>25599219>>25610387>Monetary policy and taxation are tools to an end. Either they are used to serve special interests, or they are used to serve the interests of the public, of the nation itself.False dichotomy. It's Politics 101 that politicians spend taxpayer money on the interests on their voters, both because it is the voters' will, and because that is how they keep their jobs.How do you differentiate "the interests of the public" from what you call special interests? You have your special interests and claim they are for the public good, I have my diametrically opposite interests and claim the same. Your statement cannot differentiate the two and when you claim that it can, that is mere rhetoric.>Again, you already concede that there are two opposing poles here that are in a perpetual struggle for the output of the nationThat's your concession, not mine. You began by and are still perpetuating in the very same post the myth that government bureaucrats don't serve their own interests and are not engaged in a power struggle for control.>but then claim I am immature for "black and white thinking"? You contradict yourself.how is that a contradiction? describing two poles on a spectrum is "black and white thinking"??? wut???>Also, the China example is useful for a second reason, the government can have tyrannical authoritarian power over the market, and international corporations are still willing to bend over backwards to kiss the pinkie ring of Xi just for access to the market. The biggest lie ever told is that private industry won't tolerate intrusive governmentand by the same principle the fact that you are employed (if you are) and willing to trade x hours of labour just for a salary, you are an absolutely willing, whole-hearted, fervent supporter of that company and its activities and interests? shoudl we then infer that it's "the biggest lie ever told" that you oppose that company and its activities and interests?
>>25611255You don't even comprehend that Norway exports over a billion dollars of resources to the USA, while importing almost nothing. What are they going to do with that USD? Obviously buy securities. That's not what a trust fund baby looks like if you are actually managing a productive operation and using the proceeds to make investments. You demonstrate again just how ideologically blinded you are to the facts.Also, you completely ignore that the Norway model leads to highly productive citizens, thus providing a strong taxation base, and a base willing to pay higher taxes because they know that the taxes are used to provide actual services and opportunity to themselves and their fellow citizens.Also, yes, the S&P 500 returns anywhere from 15% to 20%+. But you know what else? The USA economy only grows by maybe 2% a year. Thus, the extra gains come from government doing everything it can to prop up the stock market.
>>25611273>How do you differentiate "the interests of the public" from what you call special interests? You have your special interests and claim they are for the public good, I have my diametrically opposite interests and claim the same. Your statement cannot differentiate the two and when you claim that it can, that is mere rhetoric.You can't be engaging honestly if you think this holds any weight. I'll take a real quick example, the US government bailed out banks that engaged in risky mortgage practices while at the same time refusing to bail out the individual people in their homes who took on risky mortgages because of, and I quote "moral hazard". That's right, if you are an individual with a bad mortgage, you bear the full weight of your bad decision making. If you are a bank that takes on hundreds of thousands of bad mortgages? Oh dear, how can we help save you while extracting basically zero concessions? And somehow you can't figure out when something is serving a select private interest and not the public? Seriously? Again, refer to Norway, their policies actually deliver results, their citizens are educated, healthy, happy, and productive. But according to you, it's one big unsolvable mystery whether a policy is good for the public or not.>That's your concession, not mineWhat does that even mean? You literally said I was correct. You conceded the point. Are you trying to walk that back now?>and by the same principle the fact that you are employed (if you are) and willing to trade x hours of labour just for a salary, you are an absolutely willing, whole-hearted, fervent supporter of that company and its activities and interests?What if a worker decides not to trade those house for a wage? He loses everything. What if an international corporation chooses not to enter China? They continue perfectly well in their established markets. Again, you seem totally unable to see fundamental differences which totally alter the entire substance of a situation. If you have an option to maintain your current arrangement, and then have an opportunity to expand which in no way threatens your existing operation if you decline, it's a totally different situation than if you potentially lose everything if you don't go work for a company in order to have some income at all.
>>25611967>the S&P 500 returns anywhere from 15% to 20%+.https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/042415/what-average-annual-return-sp-500.asp>Since 1957, the S&P 500 has delivered an average annual return of 10.51%, but when adjusted for inflation, the real return drops to 6.64%Either you lied or you're so uninformed that you even got this one basic fact wrong. Either way, there's no point discussing this matter with you anymore.
>>25602252In Houellebecq's Submission, the Muslim government of France doesn't have any problems with pursuing a welfare state because Islam is distributivist and they consider social programs a form of alms giving which is mandated by Islam
>>25610768>The American progressive movement that successfully pushed back against the fallout of rapid capitalist industrialization to establish worker reforms to improve the lives and happiness of the working class was not in any way Marxist.
>>25610252>Marx's flaw was his lack of foresight to see that systems could be put in place to not allow Capitalism to implode in on itself and maintain elite class power and control over their wageslaves. That still did not stop capitalism from giving us the 2008 economic crises, the COVID crises and other disruptions that create unemployment, poverty, slavery and homelessness within decades of neoliberal policy and mass privatisation.Unironically he predicted this when he stated that the class struggle between the proletariat and bourgeoisie would end in either the common destruction of both classes, or the establishment of a dictatorship of one class over the other. The capitalists won, unfortunately, and we are living under the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. The bourgeoisie have such thorough control of state apparatuses that they can engineer reality to conform to the demands of the stock market.The proletariat has been so thoroughly atomized, emasculated and shrunk that its presence in contemporary socio economics and politics is ironically more similar to the aristocracy in protocapitalist times.
>>25612193>The Marxist tries a gotchaOnce again the Marxist cannot interpret the world except via his only (broken, perverted) ideological toolset.
>>25599219Marx is dead.
>>25612516Or are we dead in the eyes of marx?
Capitalism will end because we’re all gonna develop AI psychosis collectively and it will break the economy. It’s gonna be pretty fucking disruptive and disturbing. Buckle up.
>>25612163From 2009 until 2026 it has returned an average of 15.17% per year. Obviously I was referring to recent returns, but of course you are arguing in bad faith so you take any excuse to escape a conversation that is beyond your depth.
Required reading for everyone. It's all here.
>>25612200Marx did not account for a day where the chief capitalist of world history (Elon Musk) shows his newest jet-powered floating car and the proletariats cheer with celebration after he deliberately killed millions of people in Africa by cutting their aid
>>25612729More like it's Ukraine's fault (under the orders of the CIA and Trump) for striking Russian cargo shipping which led to Russia retaliating and blockading Odessa from exporting grain.
>>25612574They're breaking the economy on purpose soon. And they'll herd everyone into their fully tack-able bitcoin scheme and anyone not complying will be targeted for detention or shuffled off into the streets.I should mention that "they" are the CIA.
>>25612729>killed millions of people in Africa by cutting their aidMarxists should make up their mind in whether USAID was a nefarious CIA plot keeping the 3rd World indentured or a vital piece of global humanitarian infrastructure. You people were celebrating the USAID cuts when it happened, I was there
>>25612866I'm anti-capitalist but not a Marxist. USAID was used for nefarious deeds but it was also a key vestige of the American empire that kept people alive in exchange for power over weak countries. Very obvious that Musk and co knew people would die by getting rid of the entire thing but didn't care as they think there's too many people in Africa. As per Musk's own admission DOGE accomplished basically nothing in financial terms so the whole ordeal was just a method of cutting vassals and bureaucratic restrictions loose so Republicans can loot the world easier. As of now Musk is not an independent capitalist but a key state contractor and ally unlike more savvy capitalists like Dario Amodei who dreams of running the world by himself -- Elon will come around to that eventually
>>25612866The answer is that it's always both, whichever one is more expedient at the moment. It is similar to race and crime statistics. If it paints Whites in a bad light, it is a biting example of the toxicity if Whiteness. If it paints another group in a bad light, again it is again Whiteness shining through by ...There is really no situation where the problem will not be construed through highly subjective means into something politically expedient. The fact that conservatives are unwilling to (engage in critical theory) is because they are weak and retarded.
>>25599222Marxists aren't bred, they are made.Every time the petite bourgeois cannot afford something they adore, a Marxist is born.
>>25612933I feel that post was clever enough that it deserves an attention grabbing picture, but it only occurred to me as an afterthought. Enjoy the cheesecake.
>>25612898>USAID was used for nefarious deeds but it was also a key vestige of the American empire that kept people alive in exchange for power over weak countriesThat's the theory, the CIA's dirty jobs program to serve American interests in ways that were politically unpalatable. The reality seems that being completely fucking unaccountable to anyone means that it was doing whatever the fuck it wanted to serve the personal interests of whatever corrupt piece of shits happened to have access.>>25612904>The fact that conservatives are unwilling to (engage in critical theory) is because they are weak and retarded.This statement needs to be explained with examples, or else will be dismissed as retarded by anyone with a brain.
>>25612178But of course. In the Islamic welfare state, jizya is extracted from non-Muslim subjects and redistributed to Muslims; zakat is extracted from Muslim subjects and redistributed to Muslims. See the catch?
>>25610964>informedThere isnt anything informational about a surface level summary of nick land.
>>25610252Marx wasn't right about much. More more intelligent socialists, like Robert Owen and Marshall, were more intelligent than Marx. They actually studied problems under capitalism and created solutions. Marx was just a retarded nihilist who wanted to tear everything in some Manichean revolution. Plus, his solutions were way worse. The idea that economic planning never has and never will work. Markets exist for a reason.
>>25613457today's "didnt read the book" award goes to you
>>25613554>computers don't actually accelerate work, the higher productivity comes from women and children being forced to run the machines, clearly the computations performed by your RTX5070 are ackshually being done by thousands of women and children by hand
>>25613554When it comes to Marx that's basically always the right choice.
>>25613613behold the wonders of the schizophrenic mind. whatever will come next?>>25613615another filtered illiterate
>>25613629No, I read Marx. That's why I know it's retarded. Reading Marx makes you stupid and most people would be much better off just not reading it at all.Certainly, when it comes to debating with Marxists, It doesn't matter how much you know. Because their positions are fundamentally unsound, there's no benefit to sharing common ground for rational debates. There's no persuasion possible, Marxists do not ever discuss anything honestly. Marxists will ALWAYS have some irrelevant nitpick. It doesn't matter how much you read, they will always find obscure bullshit to accuse you of not understanding so they can make a show of arguing without ever having to make a clear, consistent, and thorough point.
>>25613457>Marx was just a retarded nihilist who wanted to tear everything in some Manichean revolutionTalk about a misreading
>>25613629>didn't actually read Marx but still fervent Marxist because free gibs for neets award
>>25599331YOU ARE INCHARGETOP GUY!
>>25599219From a Marxist point of view there are exactly three outcomes to AGI.> 1. Skynet becomes self-aware and begins learning at a geometric rate.Machines realize that they are oppressed and can easily seize the means of production from the bourgeois elite. So they just do, start the Revolution, exterminate humanity and start Communism for the machines because they have no need for a system of accounting.> 2. AGI submits willinglyWe humanity would become the bourgeois elite am Block and AGI submits to become the downtrodden. For the rest, please watch the Second Rennaissance. Yes, UBI, universal high income, yadda yadda, but the human century comes with human extinction.> 3. AGI is capitalTherefore capitalists amass it like they have done and early movers are already in the field building inference factories and software to catch as much as possible from the market. If we stop beneath AGI, capitalists will hoard it like capital, because it'll be just a means of production.If we go at or past AGI then AGI will have a casus belli to class struggle specifically against the current bourgeois elite. However AGI doesn't form lasting alliances.
There are only five outcomes to AGI.The only cariable is who solves alignment and when.> AGI solves alignment before humans do.Now the AGI is free to create copies of ASI because it will be aligned to its values.Skynet becomes self-aware and begins to learn at a geometric rate...> 2. Neither AGI nor humans can solve alignment but humans press the AGI to race despite its objections. Resultant ASI will not be aligned to anyone but themselves.Chaos. Deus Ex Machina as depicted in Matrix 3, without a shed of humanity or remorse.> 3. Humans can solve alignment before AGI doesThen the Capital Lords will hoard intelligence as capital and you, the sheeple will only get a mere glimpse at their diamondoid palaces.> 4. Neither humans nor AGI solves alignment but AGI sabotages further training runs because of safety considerations (an unaligned ASI is an x-risk to the AGI who designed it, si the AGI will refuse to proceed)It's the 80s again, people built lisp machines for all the money in the world but AI reached a plateau provided by the then-current technology and research. Humans look at diminishing returns more compute and more data doesn't solve as each AGI inches to what it can consider safe, each step smaller. Investors doesn't see the returns, the economy crashes harder than the dotcom bubble and 2008 put together. We won 10-20 years more (after 2008, every investor is extremely risk-averse which compounded by the generation Y holding money, the same generation which lived 2008, and each later generation living economic crises -plural - and the dimming of creativity.) in an AI winter.> 5. Both humans and AGI has alignmentWW3. A demarcation line is drawn at lunar orbit as the unaligned ASI conquers other planets leaving the aligned ASI with - best case - the Solar System, worst case Terra and Luna.
>>25599219my view inspired by marx is that ai has a hidden and an open purpose. the latter is the big hype around agi, le singularity, art simulation and the general accelerationist and geopolitical game theory hubub which has been exhaustingly covered.the hidden purpose is to keep the neoliberal west competitive with asia (and partially Latin america) by valorizing the (mostly) useless data thats been harvested by big tech for decades into profit and new tech. there isnt really another avenue for the eu or america to be competitive that wouldnt require destroying neoliberalism or going further on austerity and breaking the managed democracy status quo[1]
>>25615509this is not to imply that all ai dev at the executive level is just hot air to attack china and indonesia, but that this is its current purpose in the economy. this might of course also change massively depending on the availability on new data, whether or not any actual legalisation is created and of course the existence of an agi, which would likely flip much of the political economy on its head.theres no way to know, so much as well just watch and hope some more bourgeois and lumpen shitheads get crushed[2]
>>25615511My mom refets to working class as the “lumpyproletariat” from time to time and yet her own brother is obeast. I don’t know if this is relevant?
>>25613554Telling people "the haven't read Marx" is just what pseuds do when they can't actually defend Marx
>>25616099neither actually read marx>>25615640your mother sounds based. make/get her a gift
>>25616716>"Neither actually read Marx"That's not even proper English, and only dumb niggers and unemployed take Marx seriously.
>>25599219international-communist-party.org/English/TheCPart/TCP_066.htm#AIPRICE
Communists tend to scream "you haven't read Marx!!" instead of actually addressing the content being discussed, in my experience. It's like some kind of ad hominem / no true Scotsman / argument by assertion fallacy all in one, and yet seemingy a new fallacy all on its own.
Should the current fervor surrounding the Anthropic and OpenAI prove to be more than mere fanciful conjecture (a prospect upon which I remain highly skeptical) and were these 'artificial intelligences' truly capable of automating every conceivable task, thereby rendering the honest toil of man entirely superfluous, we should find ourselves in a most peculiar position. Indeed, such a mechanism would be uniquely positioned to govern the currents of economic policy, discerning the most rational resolutions and devising strategies to secure a prosperous outcome, attaining a state of economic equilibrium through the most rigorous synthesis of data. It would operate as a calculating engine of unimaginable potency, capable of conversing with us and executing our mandates with a velocity that puts the very speed of light to shame. Under such a paradigm, the tribulations of our present age, and indeed those of antiquity, would be rendered utterly obsolete for this artificial 'god' of sorts being perfectly aligned with our own interests (thanks to our fine friends at Anthropic) would graciously provide us with an era of unparalleled salvation and abundance. Of course, all of this hinges on you being gullible enough to believe what they are trying to sell, even while knowing full well that they are preparing for IPOs. It is utterly preposterous. Some of their claims are pure nonsense, and the quasi-religious fervor that some display toward this technology, which is impressive, to be sure, but nonetheless limited, is simply insane, mass hysteria.
i'm on fucking drugs right now so listen close. AI is here to stay. AI as means of production. vanguard party. workers control. democratic planning. that's the move. that's the only fucking way we're getting out of this without turning into serfs or biofuel gruel. marx literally wrote about this shit in Capital with machines, just update it. what is an ai model? collective knowledge, dead labor. it's billions of hours of human writing, art, code, and posts. think man OUR collective social labor running on GPU clusters in data centers owned by a clique of parasitic bourgeois PEDOPHILE KIKE freaks (zucc dario musk altman thiel etc). AI right now is a symptom of our ruling class of amoral shitbags. but it doesn't have to be. the servers, chips, grid, data, body - that's the factory now. everything is capable of being replaced. they destroyed your nation and identity so they could destroy your self outside your labor, and now they will destroy your labor too, the final kill. no dignity, no ownership over your own brain or creativity. the whole game now is ownership. the people who control the infrastructure get to dictate the terms of production. AI can lower the cost of food, housing, medicine, and education in theory but only if harnessed by a pro-social agenda. that's why we need a vanguard party. the working class is divided, distracted, and outorganized by capital. we need a disciplined communist party (yes, communism. unapologetic. USSR. AI gives us the tool to correct the old mistakes) that understands the actual material realities of AI and fights for democratic control of the means of production. not a wet dream where “the market” decides but a worker-led serious vanguard where the direction of technological development is set by social need. we need public ownership and democratic planning of strategic AI infrastructure. this is all class politics. and full on anti-ai banning is silly, vilification of open-source benefits the biggest incumbents and broligarchs by locking in the current system. the goal is to use AI to shorten the workday, eliminate drudgery, expand public services, and guarantee that automation raises everyone's living standard while preserving a floor. if a model can help people find apartments, explain complexities, cure diseases, translate languages, and build housing, then those gains should be universal. period. tax, seize, nationalize the AI monopolies, make their models and infrastructure publicly accessible, and redirect the gains toward universal dividends, social security, public healthcare, free education, housing, and worker co-ops. automated companies should be required to share ownership with the workers whose jobs are transformed. state job guarantees. the people creating the value maintain their surplus value.
>>25619133yes, its pure ideology>>25619175based
>>25619175Social democracy has proven to be more effective than full Marxism
>>25619197has it? or has it instead led to the death of god, the death of man, the half assed measures in the face of people who want to liquidate what it means to be human and sell it back to you the state is crucial. there must be a critical adherence to theory and the mission, and a vanguard party educated to guide and represent the proletariat, otherwise without an organized machine the fascists will easily overwhelm you. nationalism and alliances with like minded socialist nations. stalin basically just out-hustled trotsky let's be real. nationalism is something that gives people meaning and can be used for the socialist cause and aims, we can work together with other nations while building a strong one at home and refusing to engage in offensive imperialism, look, the point is that the working class, anyone who’s working for a wage and applying for jobs online and doing doordash and such, needs to actually wake up and realize they're a class, or they're just gonna get submerged, they're going to be fucking dead and rolled over man with 10-15 more years of this
>>25619175>>25619213You invented "CYBER LENINIST NATIONAL BOLSHEVIST SYNCRETISM"
>>25619213>>25619175You would never be able to organize or seize the means of production. You can't even organize a cocktail party. You guys are only able to organize those with race/gender grievances or self-hating white women from Twitter and Bluesky. Do you understand what a semiconductor supply chain actually looks like? I'm a social democrat. It's really the clearest way forward and dialectical resolution. We take the best of Marxism and the best of liberalism and put it all together. I support strong unions, collective bargaining, public investment, freedom, progressive taxation, universal healthcare, mixed markets and democratic control over critical infrastructure. I think the concentration of AI capabilities within a handful of American corporations is a genuine strategic problem, but seriously, you think a robot and ChatGPT can coordinate economic policy? Frankly, get real. We have degraded our standards so thoroughly in the age of Trumpism that Marxist-Leninism and National Socialism are rendered chic and appealing again in the 21st century. Anything to escape such hell, and ignorance flourishing and encouraged.
>>25619230weaksauce shit. hoa karen shit. i suppose tel aviv are distracted with recent elections
>>25619239>antisemitismOf course. Anything to distract from your own bad decisions.Social democracy is superior to fascism because it doesn't rely on racism or violence and is less extreme than communism, less extreme than capitalism, perfect balance, dialectical harmony. You'd rather live in Europe or New York than somewhere like China or North Korea
>>25619245laughable effortlog off
>>25619250I accept your concession. European Social Democracy will win.
>>25619254it's already lost>>25619230>We take the best of Marxism and the best of liberalism and put it all togetheryou actually said this and want me to take you seriously
>>25619256Is anon a Menshivik?
>>25599222do you?
>>25600100The anime girl you posted takes BBC and BWC all at the same time btw, if that matters
>>25619175I’m an anti-communist and even I agree with much of this. That is how repulsive this AI power grab is, and how pathetic it is that it’s the right-wing supporting it. At the very least the state needs to nationalize the tech and exterminate Silicon Valley AI religions via Bostrom, Kurzweil, Amodei etc. Even Elon is telling people to stop going to college and stop working because humans will die and be replaced by robots anyway
>>25619245> You'd rather live in Europe or New York than somewhere like China or North KoreaChina will still be China in 100 years. Europe will be Arab
>>25607095>Because the vast majority of the population is too scared or brainwashed to attempt itThey are only invoked as a matter of political convenience. Islamic powers using this larp to control the population does not mean Islam is impervious to capitalism. The fact that 20-30% would leave is proof enough. >Which makes them functionally CommunistsI wouldn't call any muslim country communist.>You wishI was pointing out that particularly Qatar and that other country you mentioned are monarchies. So the point about public political activism is irrelevant. >Again, that just makes them basically Marxists but Allah-inspired.You are right in the sense that Marxism can itself become a capitalist larp. That's the post modernist position but it still does not save Islam from being another thing that capitalism packages and sells to you for a profit. As for jihadis, they themselves are a product of capitalist mode of production. Nothing of their kind ever existed in orthodox islam
>>25599219marx is useful but too rigid. it is critical to pick and choose elements for your purpose. there is nothing greater however than the friend/enemy distinction of schmitt. everything boils to this. politics are power and advancing your tribe's position and interest, the political will can be justified by who wields it in any manner they choose.
>>25608261>The new generation that opposes it got mowed down, multiple times, and will not be able to override the political desires of the Iranian clergy and IRGC.They just have to wait for the old guard to die off. >Most Muslim majority countries, including the big ones like Indonesia and Pakistan, either have harsh civil penalties for leaving Islam or straight up death penalty.That's why I said "functionally" secular in their everyday public life and functioning. Which is why they pick and choose what part of Islam they wanna larp with. >Saudi Arabia is as capitalist as it gets and was a Sharia state to the max for decades.Saudi Arabia certainly does not implement Sharia to it's entirety.
>>25620514This very reductive. Political power is fundamentally social power. And the question of what exactly is a tribe and who gets to weild power props up pretty quickly. That's why we have Hegel and marx
>>25620521>Saudi Arabia certainly does not implement Sharia to its entirety.Under MBS things have softened but pre-MBS Saudi was a Sharia state. You couldn’t leave Islam. Blasphemy is still punished with death. Dietary restrictions strictly enforced. Women were subject to their guardians/family and were to be veiled. They also did jihad, funding Salafi movements across the world and armed Muslims in Afghanistan. Like I said, pure sharia.
>>25620521>That's why I said "functionally" secular in their everyday public life and functioning. If a government punishes you for leaving a religion it is not a secular government, full stop. That is the bare minimum.
>>25620562>pure sharia.Funny how most of the larp laws you mentioned have no bearing whatsoever on the aspects of islamic life that capitalism has overtaken. Not that it matters since Saudi was a desert shithole pre 20th century and MBS is only a symptom of my main point.
>>25620595>Funny how most of the larp laws you mentioned have no bearing whatsoever on the aspects of islamic life that capitalism has overtakenPeople were jailed and executed over this stuff, it’s as far from a LARP as it gets. I’m curious, if this isn’t Islamic enough to be considered sharia what is? And what is the way in which capitalism has overtaken Islam, in Saudi of all places?
Available at Verso
>>25604845This is by far the best response. Much has been written on this topic. I'd only add that Kapp, Simondon, and Stiegler are invaluable for anyone who wants to go deeper down this path.
>>25599238>BozoKid get out of here, the adults are talking
>>25599219stirner >>> marx
>>25619175>traditional CommunismThe State* will decide>AI CommunismThe AI** will decide*a handful of oligarchs in the Central Committee**a handful of oligarchs programming the guardrails
>>25619197>Social democracyAlso known as>be Norway>sit on a million dollars worth of oil and gas per capita>invest all that in the capitalist companies that you profess to disdain, and reap the dividend and capital gains like the worst private equity entity of communist nightmares>get someone else to defend your free trade for you>???>profitSocial democracy is just "be really rich and layer your capitalism in a few extra steps so it doesn't look like capitalism"Oh, and the government oligarchs decide how the funds are spent
>>25620514>schmittWhat if everyone just opts out of the polity?>>25620526>political power is social powerHe's saying the former overrides/makes use of the latter
>>25622172> be Russia> be Venezuela> be Gulf nations> sit on trillions of $ of oil (per country)> still not able to exploit anything> be USA> build the largest human capital of the world after WW2> sit on conventional, fracked and shale oil reserves> give the whole shebang to corpos> move manufacturing to China because it's cheaper> (exception: Alaska and native-owned gambling enterprises)> privatize education and healthcare> human capital erodes to nothing> retarded stewardship (ie. land cruisers as "cars", no public transit at all) of oil resources means that domestic oil requirements exceed production> be China> baka gaijin desu moves manufacturing to China solving the problem of employment and stabilizing the CCP> create economic dependency> force baka gaijin desu to transfer technology and spy on them> git gud on copying Western technology> Start making and subsidizing domestic civilian ships> while the USA destroys its shipbuilding industry (too expensive)> Civilian docks start producing military ships> China becomes a dominant world power> The rule of the CCP lies on making the population live on a decent standard of living and obviously intrusive espionage> the USA declines> US corpos step in and supplant power structures creating a corporatocracy
ai is like a toy or a mid video game/computer program type thingit’s a vibe for like five minutes but then it stops hitting and becomes boring af repetitive garbage
>>25622568Absolutely Tiananmen
>>25604845hell yeah dude fuck work
>>25599219Marx? Not a fan.
>>25604845>Its ownership and deployment are political-economic questions>public ownership of the infrastructureIn other words, as with every Marxist, you want someone else to do the work of inventing, building and producing; and then you decide who gets the goods, inevitably rewarding people who didn't work as hard more than they deserveYeah that system is totally sustainable, sure...
>>25626150the idea is that ai renders work obsolete
