misandry isn't real (you know this, obviously), and obviously the mechanisms by which MRAs and the like have decided "misandry" is an issue aren't really related to trans women. transphobia is transphobia. it arises via a different mechanism entirely.

people making pics like this are the shallowest most nothingburger pseuds alive

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>>45154098 >>45156118 >>45157292 >>45157413 >>45157428 >>45159079 >>45159516 >>45159613 >>45162219 >>45163463

>>45153548
Yes and only blind pussywhipped idiots don't see it. No cis woman, who doesn't look male, has ever been kicked out of her own spaces, called a rapist, accused of violence, caught between both "trying too hard" or not trying hard enough at whatever they're doing, etc. Those are things that men get said to them, because society hates men by default due to being gynocentric. Men are assumed to be evil by default, forbidden from self expression, and excluded from all spaces that have any kind of safety. The rage directed at MtFs is the same rage directed at cis men, and hardly ever even seen through a different lens.

>>45154061
>only blind pussywhipped idiots don't see it
they absolutely see it and understand it. they lie about it.

When people are transphobic, what really is happening is they are treating a trans woman how they would treat any woman if they thought they could get away with it. That’s why there is so much overlap between how trans women are treated and how black women were treated historically. Same goes for trans men, as long as they embrace masculinity cis men dngaf about them, while cis women treat them exactly how they treat any man who they deem too feminine or undesirable.

>>45153548
no because trans women aren't treated like men, they're treated like subhumans. Transphobic men don't hate men and don't hate male traits or masculinity, but they sure hate trans women.
>>45156001
this basically

>>45156022
I would say that women hate MTF because of misandry and men hate MTF due to misogyny

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>>45154061
>Those are things that men get said to them
can a man get arrested for being shirtless in public?
men are the majority of rapists and violent criminals, but transphobes don't accuse men of this stuff. Transphobes don't engage in hate campaigns against men. Transphobes are perfectly fine with men being masculine.
Transphobia is similar to a lot of homophobia, which is mostly derived from misogyny, as the hatred is towards feminine traits. People who hate trans women want trans women to be masculine, they don't hate masculinity. Trans women are told they are masculine as a means of discouraging femininity. At the same time, transphobes suggest that a trans woman wanting to be feminine is misogynistic, and that trans women should deconstruct stereotypes (by being masculine). Similarly, gay men are hated for having feminine mannerisms, feminine speech, feminine clothing, feminine sexual behavior, etc. Homophobia has always targeted the receptive homosexual who engages in feminine sexual behavior far more harshly than a masculine top, and that's been true since probably the beginning of human civilization.
This has absolutely nothing to do with hatred of men or masculinity, and everything to do with hatred of women and femininity. Even transphobic women who accuse trans women of misogyny or being invasive men inevitably ally with right wing conservative political groups full of misogynistic men, and it shouldn't be any surprise that so many terfs masculinize their own appearances and so frequently talk about how much they hate (being) women.

>>45156118
Holy repper, they would unironically take T as a challenge that it wouldn’t make them a trannoid

>>45154061
Yes I certainly agree. Feminine men are victims of both phobias

>>45157271
i saw the image and was about to say it but congrats on beating me to it
i feel sad for him and everyone else like him

no lol

>>45154061
>gynocentric.
So gynocentric that women still get charged with crimes, for having an abortion and even a miscarriage.

>>45154061
Moooommm the foids are hurting my fee fees, againnnn!!!

>>45156034
For that to be true, said people would need to be seen as having changed their sex.
And 99% of people don't believe such thing can be achieved.
Also 95% of trans people, don't pass as cis.
The claims of misandry and misogyny, are retarded.

>>45153548
this is one of the reasons I am against misandry and feminism as a tranny

>>45156118
>(wokely) fags are women

>>45153548
Factually yes

>>45156118
>Similarly, gay men are hated for having feminine mannerisms, feminine speech, feminine clothing, feminine

Hatred for feminine traits comes entirely from women. Transphobes are perfectly fine with masculine men because women admire masculinity and it's a female structured value system.

>>45154061
Circumcision alone is proof of it

>>45154061
The replies to this being either total aggreeance or total character assassination attempts prove that something in it is categorically true even if not factually provable as of now.

>>45157413
>women are charged with killing children when they kill children
Oh my Clancy, we need to stop this!

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>>45159710 >>45160339

>>45153561
>misandry isn't real (you know this, obviously),
Then explain how an entire generation of specifically men are doing so much worse than women their age? At some point, if it happens to enough men, you have to concede it's the SYSTEM causing it. You can't just privatize successes and socialize losses for women, and then socialize losses and privatize successes for men. It's hypocracy.
>the mechanisms by which MRAs and the like have decided "misandry" is an issue aren't really related to trans women. transphobia is transphobia. it arises via a different mechanism entirely.
Descriptively, it's the same shit. People think you're a rapist. How it arises is the same, due to your amab body, and people hating men and never wanting men to escape that hatred by any means, even if it means harming some women along the way.
>>45156001
>When people are transphobic, what really is happening is they are treating a trans woman how they would treat any woman if they thought they could get away with it.
The stated reason by open transphobes is that they're treating men like they do men. Picrel. I conceed that a special breed of transphobe exists who believes trans women are women, but he's mostly just mysogynistic and looking to pursue women he won't get socially assaulted for pursuing and bullying, at that point. The point with that rare man, is that he'd also abuse a cis woman if he thought he could ask her about her day to her before promptly being arrested and shipped off to prison to get raped by Bubba.
>That’s why there is so much overlap between how trans women are treated and how black women were treated historically.
That's not TYPICALLY how transphobia goes.

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>>45159871

>>45156118
>can a man get arrested for being shirtless in public?
Can a woman get arrested for asking a man out?
>men are the majority of rapists and violent criminals,
Other way around. The majority of rapists and violent criminals are men. The rapists are men. Men are not rapists. Even still, if you include "made to penetrate" in your definition of rape, women do, in fact, make up a sizable chunk of rapists, and men make up about half of rape victims. Being raped is not a specifically female problem, and men have even more reason than women do to underreport. Further, the law, and institutions for rape victims are biased against such men.
>Transphobes don't engage in hate campaigns against men
They intend to, since they think trans women ARE men.
>Transphobes are perfectly fine with men being masculine.
Mysogynists are also perfectly fine with women being feminine. Does that mean they're not mysogynistic for hating masculine women?
>homophobia, which is mostly derived from misogyny, as the hatred is towards feminine traits.
Homophobia toward men is actually misandry a priori. By definition. Being homophobic is hating people for liking men while being men. Homophobes have no problem with women liking men. They just hate the men for being men and doing it. Likewise homophobia toward lesbians is mysogynistic. The reason is because gay is always gendered. You can't describe a gay act without also describing a gendered actor.
>they don't hate masculinity.
Hating masculinity doesn't constitute misandry. It's hating men.
>gay men are hated for having feminine mannerisms, feminine speech, feminine clothing, feminine sexual behavior, etc
No. They're hated for being men while doing such things. Women are not hated for doing such things.
>Homophobia has always targeted the receptive homosexual
Not in lesbians. But agreed that homophobia hates receptive gay men the most, in general.
>This has absolutely nothing to do with hatred of men or masculinity
*Loud incorrect buzzer*

>>45154061
Yes, thank you. I'm confident enough in my truetransness that I don't need to relabel misandry or rewrite my memories of how I was mistreated as a young boy for being male (for stuff men did 40 years before I was born).

>>45156118
Continued
>Even transphobic women who accuse trans women of misogyny or being invasive men inevitably ally with right wing conservative political groups full of misogynistic men, and it shouldn't be any surprise that so many terfs masculinize their own appearances and so frequently talk about how much they hate (being) women.
Terfs just realize that the special treatment goes away if they lose their victim status and prioritize doing that over their integrity.

Also, anon. The starting point of feminism is hating feminimity, whenever it's not marxist. Much of the "problems" that feminism claims in the first place come from simply not liking being feminine, rather than from being oppressed. Hence, the need to not restrict those women who want to be more masculine. Gender freedom is one of the few good things that feminism has given us. It's a shame that the same counterpart freedom to men, for men to be feminine, gets isolated from the movement via labeling it homophobic rather than gendered oppression.

>>45159534
>You can't just privatize successes and socialize losses for women, and then socialize losses and privatize successes for men.
Damn. That's a really good way of putting the issues I have with feminism and leftists when deciding men's issues.

Transphobia stems from misandry because some feminists, and some leftists, think it's OK to hate someone because of how they are born, but are good enough at piling a bunch of weasel words on top of it that they do not have to admit that like literally everyone else, they are a little bit racist and a little bit bigoted. Some women think it is OK to hate men because of how they are born and thus the idea that they can transition is offensive to them, beucase that would go against their hard baked ideology that men are rape stick demons or whatever.

A lot of people make the mistake of assuming that TERFs are just secret conservatives and ignore that there is a direct through line from second wave feminism into their ideology. The reason the UK's transphobia is so bad is because they've managed to slide it into liberalism. In the US people are just ignorant and afraid of being gay becuase some trannies are hot. In the UK they put effort into hating trannies. Take the scene in the IT crowd for example. The trans character gives this whole speech about how hard it is to be a trans woman, then gets punched out becuase fuck you die in a fire. Graham Lineham actually did a little bit of research on trans women before writing that, but his conclusion was "hey....FUCK YOU DIE IN A FIRE" It's a level of virtriol and hatred that I don't tend to see from American transphobes

>>45159590
nta but
>They intend to, since they think trans women ARE men.
What they say their intentions are is irrelevant here. Trans women are not men. TERFs do not treat trans women like men- they treat us like a lower class of woman. It falls neatly into established patterns for how women have treated othered or marginalized women historically.
>all that stuff about homophobia being misandry
Patriarchy is ultimately a method of societal control. In order to function- it sets strict boundaries on who is the in-group, and who is the out-group. See class boundaries, religions, colonialism, whatever else you want as an example- they all do the same thing. Maintaining the purity of the in-group is critical, because members of the out-group coming in, and members of the in-group going out BOTH threaten the social order as well as the belief that the social order is naturally arising. Men are treated poorly when they are feminine, and they are treated especially poorly because they are men- but the underlying mechanism is misogyny, not misandry.
And yes women are often perpetrators of this- we are taught to enforce the patriarchy from birth the same as men are.

>>45159871
>their intentions are is irrelevant here.
How do you figure? We're determining if their mysoginistic, right? Mysogyny a belief, not an action. I can't mysogyny you.
>TERFs do not treat trans women like men- they treat us like a lower class of woman
No. They treat you like gay men.
>It falls neatly into established patterns for how women have treated othered or marginalized women historically.
It fits neatly into established patterns for how women treated men historically. Historically, when have women accused other women of being pedophile perverted infultraters of women's spaces, the MAIN thing levied against trans women. Like you all aren't just called whores. You're called rapists.
>Patriarchy is ultimately a method of societal control
Agreed, though tepidly because defintions if patriarchy differ.
>it sets strict boundaries on who is the in-group, and who is the out-group
Agreed.
>Maintaining the purity of the in-group is critical, because members of the out-group coming in, and members of the in-group going out BOTH threaten the social order as well as the belief that the social order is naturally arising.
Indeed.
>Men are treated poorly when they are feminine, and they are treated especially poorly because they are men- but the underlying mechanism is misogyny, not misandry.
This is doublespeak. They're hated because they're men, but that's somehow misogyny. It's misogyny to hate men, now, according to you. Bad is good. Good is bad. Good is good bad is bad. Bad good bad good.

Sure, the origin of the hate for men comes from men's expected place in social higharchies. But the same can be said for the hate for women. It also does. Patriarchy doesn't hate women who fit the role it perscribes. Patriarchy only hates those who transgress it. It's is not innately misogynistic or misandrist.

What it is depends entirely on how hard it is to fill the role. And in today's society, it's basically impossible to properly be a man, hence why we hate men.

>>45159710
>Damn. That's a really good way of putting the issues I have with feminism and leftists when deciding men's issues.
I even missaid it and you still got it. Losses are privatized for men. Gains are socialized.
>Some women think it is OK to hate men because of how they are born and thus the idea that they can transition is offensive to them, beucase that would go against their hard baked ideology that men are rape stick demons or whatever.
Pretty much. But feminists won't acknowledge the problem and instead call it homophobia or transphobia, and actual trans women get brain raped.
>a lot of people make the mistake of assuming that TERFs are just secret conservatives and ignore that there is a direct through line from second wave feminism into their ideology.
Yup.
>In the US people are just ignorant and afraid of being gay becuase some trannies are hot.
Imo, it's because they're misandrist and hate androphiles for being men.
>Graham Lineham actually did a little bit of research on trans women before writing that, but his conclusion was "hey....FUCK YOU DIE IN A FIRE" It's a level of virtriol and hatred that I don't tend to see from American transphobes
Britian is also a place that was deathgripped HARD by the "intolerance agaisnt intolerance is tolerance" crowd. This is true both for their views on sexism and their own culture, which they despise because they see it as intolerant. Anything is justified so long as it's to stop intolerance. Even intolerance. Mind you, necessary intolerance is required to stop intolerance, like having police to go stop a hate crime, but unnecessary intolerance is definitely not required and is actively detrimental and causes more intolerance. Because, duh.
It was only a matter of time before people realized that stopping intolerance was just a way of doing whatever you want, even being intolerant, and getting the approval of the masses for it.

America, on the other hand, is slightly more libertarian, so it's different here

>>45159534
The stated reason isn’t necessarily the same thing as what they are doing or why they are doing it. If people believed that trans women were men, they would treat them like men. The vast majority of bullying and harassment that transphobes engage in against trans women is exclusively the same used against cis women. You have people like JK Rowling posting upskirt photos, they insult their appearances and imply they don’t look like women, they say they should be raped.

There is, perhaps, a small subsection of TERFs who do actually treat trans women like men for the purposes of engaging in misandry, but on the whole, there is no overlap between how society treats men and how society treats trans women.

>a special breed of transphobe
It’s really not that special or rare. Every single male transphobe is a transphobe because he is misogynistic. It’s quite literally no different than how they treat any other ‘undesirable’ woman.

>but he's mostly just mysogynistic
Yes that’s quite literally what I was saying. Transphobia broadly is just a description of the misogyny that trans women face.

>That's not TYPICALLY how transphobia goes.

Are you a trans woman btw or a cis man? Just kind of funny to have someone tell me that my experience of transphobia is atypical.
We can’t play in sports with cis women because we have a ‘biological advantage’. People say we will hurt women and children in the women’s restroom.

No one gets upset about men (or cis women) being in a men’s restroom when children are in there, but people will be upset about trans women being in the men’s restroom when children are in there if bathroom segregation succeeds.

You make a lot of interesting points, but ultimately you are kind of failing to understand sort of root causes. People do not hate gay men because they love men and people hate men. People hate gay men because they are rejecting the role placed on men.

>>45153548
is a chair still a tree?
lmao

>>45160357
>a male taking estrogen is as transformative as breaking down a giant organism and assembling a piece of furniture out of 0.2% of its mass

>>45160405
what if i pay a surgeon to cut my legs in half, rearrange my pelvis, remove half my ribs and shave an inch from my clavicles

>>45160339
At its core, we have a society that punished femininity and rewarded masculinity for a long time. That’s a reward structure going back thousands of years.

A few radical feminists hate cis men, sure. They, however, have no power to be causing any of the things you are talking about.

People hate feminine women AND masculine women. They hate feminine women because our society seeks to have a class of people to oppress and for the longest time that was women, which is why they hate masculine women more, because you can’t oppress people if you don’t pretend to reward them for obeying the structures of power that allow you to do that. Thus, you have a society of people who don’t like women and femininity, but the threat keeping women feminine is at least in part, look at how much worse we treat those of you who try to act like us.

People do not hate gay men because they love men as men. That’s patently false, people hate gay men because they love men in the way that was assigned by society to women, who they hate.

Misandry and misogyny are just literally “when someone hates man” and “when someone hates woman” because that’s just kind of meaningless. Misogyny is about the specific system of reward and punishment that is used to control women. Men are sentenced to jail more often for longer times BECAUSE of misogyny. One of the ‘rewards’ for women being women is that when they commit crimes we are less likely to suspect and punish them because society as a whole thinks they are less capable of being evil then men. That’s not because we hate men. It’s because we infantilize women

>>45160487
>Misandry and misogyny are just literally
Aren’t just

>>45160065
>No. They treat you like gay men.
Why do you think they treat trans women like gay men?

>>45153548
>most malebrained person imaginable
>"gf"
lol
this is why no one takes trannies seriously
especially agps

>>45160585
The layers of vocabulary and gender theatre is crazy

>>45160339
>The stated reason isn’t necessarily why
True, but usually the stated reason is why.

>If people believed that trans women were men, they would treat them like men.
But they do treat them like men. That's the problem. They're just treated like queer men.
> vast majority of bullying and harassment that transphobes engage in against trans women is exclusively the same used against cis women.
This is just a lie, and you know it. All the transphobes I interact with call them monstrous, perverted, pedohilic villains. This does not typically happen for women.
>they insult their appearances and imply they don’t look like women, they say they should be raped.
This is just how faggots are treated.
>a small subsection of TERFs who do actually treat trans women like men
TERFs are thenselves a small subsection of transphobes, even if you were correct.
>no overlap between how society treats men and how society treats trans women.
Society isn't just the TERFs.
>Every single male transphobe is a transphobe because he is misogynistic. It’s quite literally no different than how they treat any other ‘undesirable’ woman.
Do they call undesirable women pedophiles? Do they say that undesirable women are just looking to get into women's pants and rape people and do violent crimes to highschoolers?
>Transphobia broadly is just a description of the misogyny that trans women face.
Untrue. It equally is from misandry, if not more because of it.
>Are you a trans woman btw or a cis man?
A repper.
>my experience of transphobia is atypical.
It's a cope. You're asked by your nieche in society to simultaneously recall decades being abused with misandry and deny it happened, deny it was misandry, and deny that it mattered.
>We can’t play in sports with cis women. We will hurt women and children
Like cis men. Name one cis woman accused of this.
>People hate gay men because they are rejecting the role placed on men.
No. It's because they're men. If they were women, they'd be praised.

>>45153548
https://youtube.com/shorts/OhY3WNhPGAM?si=n9l8T-GTmz23eyS7

>>45160677
I’m gonna take a step back and say two things. One, I’m open to admitting I’m wrong, and that misandry is real and equal to misogyny. Two, I hope that likewise you are also open to admitting you are wrong. Clearly we aren’t getting across to each other talking the way we are


>Like cis men. Name one cis woman accused of this.
Black women and lesbian women for decades

I’ve provided a lot of examples of the underlying reasoning of why I think these things are better explained by misogyny then misandry, specifically how these beliefs come about, right? I’ve explained why people attribute homophobia to misogyny even when it applies to men, because it reinforces women’s role in society as lesser than.

Why exactly do YOU think people hate gay men? Beyond just, they are men who hate men, what explains that behavior? Society has been run by men for millenia no? So to what end would they create a system that punishes men for loving men?

>>45160783
Because the way I see it, right now you and I are talking about two different things, the result versus the underlying cause. You say homophobia against men is a prior misandry because it’s ABOUT men, but I’m more interested in describing the underlying cause of homophobia against men.

How does homophobia against men (as you say, misandry) come about in a society run and dominated by men?

>>45160877
Meant to also say, alternatively, how do you explain men overwhelmingly facing more and longer prison sentences then women? If we are describing results, that’s pretty blatant misandry. But if we are looking at systemic causes, how does a society of men by men for men create misandry? Because this has been true longer than women have had rights, so we can’t attribute this to women.

>>45153548
>is transphobia misandry
>transphobes are mostly men
>transphobic men dont tend to be misandrist
no

>>45160065
>They're hated because they're men, but that's somehow misogyny. It's misogyny to hate men, now, according to you.
It is misogyny to view people who do not fit into the male role as lesser than those who do.
Yes, marginalized women throughout history have always been treated as a danger to women who are of higher value to the system. That is not new, or unique to trans women.

>>45160783
>Black women and lesbian women for decades
This doesn't happen. Nobody thinks black or lesbian women are pedophilic rapists. They just call them whores
>specifically how these beliefs come about, right?
You've not established that patriarchy is misogynistic.
>I’ve explained why people attribute homophobia to misogyny even when it applies to men, because it reinforces women’s role in society as lesser than.
You say the role "lesser" as if that means that patriarchy hates women, when really it just means that women are rewarded for being lesser. That's good when you are lesser. Not otherwise.
>Why exactly do YOU think people hate gay men?
Because they hate men. Think about it. If they weren't men, androphilia would be fine.
>Beyond just, they are men who hate men, what explains that behavior?
Nothing. A fundamental part of the behavior is hating men. You can't hate people who like the opposite sex, without there firstly being a sex to be opposite to.
You concede misandry does explain the behavior?
>Society has been run by men for millenia no?
Yes. And that's not the present. Unless Elon represents all men.
>So to what end would they create a system that punishes men for loving men?
Men never had agency over the patriarchy. You're doing the thing where you privatize losses for men. Men did not create the patriarchy. They were subject to it.
>>45160877
>You say homophobia against men is a prior misandry because it’s ABOUT men, but I’m more interested in describing the underlying cause of homophobia against men.
So, by extension, you're interested in the underlying cause of misandry?
>How does misandry come about in a society run and dominated by men?
Society made those men dominate and "run" things. Society punished those who didn't conform.
>>45160903
>this has been true longer than women have had rights, so we can’t attribute this to women.
The original cause were systemic incentives. Not participant's desires, but participants appeasing the system.

>>45160877
What if society isn't actually "run" by men and we're basically just doing everything for some hypothetical female?

>>45161646
>One, I’m open to admitting I’m wrong, and that misandry is real and equal to misogyny. Two, I hope that likewise you are also open to admitting you are wrong.

I'm going to guess by your replies that you are not actually open to changing your mind. There isn't really a reason to continue talking if that's the case.

>This doesn't happen. Nobody thinks black or lesbian women are pedophilic rapists. They just call them whores
Ignorant of history. I'm not going to continue to argue with you over the basic fact that during segregation black women WERE treated as threats to white women. Same with lesbians to straight women.

>You've not established that patriarchy is misogynistic.
So the patriarchy isn't misogynistic? Is that your argument?

>You say the role "lesser" as if that means that patriarchy hates women, when really it just means that women are rewarded for being lesser. That's good when you are lesser. Not otherwise.
If someone rewarded you for being lesser than them, and punished you for being equal to them, how might you describe that person's feelings towards you?

>Because they hate men. Think about it. If they weren't men, androphilia would be fine.
This is recursive reasoning. Society for millenia has rewarded and protected men, yet draws the line at loving men too much? and where does that hate actually come from?

>Nothing. A fundamental part of the behavior is hating men.
Where does the hate come from?

>Unless Elon represents all men.
There is a difference between recognizing that men have run society and saying that all men everywhere have an equal say in that society.

>Men never had agency over the patriarchy... Men did not create the patriarchy. They were subject to it.
So where did the patriarchy come from? How did the patriarchy create misandry?

>So, by extension, you're interested in the underlying cause of misandry?
Yes.

>Society made those men dominate and "run" things.
How did this society come to exist?

>>45160903
I'd like to elaborate, also, that women are responsible TODAY for their contributions toward the unjust hatred of men, just as men are responsible for the hatred of men, too. However, I'm wording this incorrectly. Misandrists that are women are responsible.

Likewise, thought to a greater degree, historically, men were not responsible for mysogyny. Instead, the mysogynists that were men were responsible for it.

In this light, the notion of a patriarchy in the sense that most feminists mean it breaks down in the modern day. It's imprecise to say men run society. Instead, those who run society are men. Men, at large, have little to do with it.

I appologize for what of my language thusfar I've used that fell for this ancient likely bourgeoisie trapping that's at least as old as Hitler's rise to power.

>>45161669
>What if society isn't actually "run" by men and we're basically just doing everything for some hypothetical female?
Nta. I'm the one they were originally responding to, and the hypothetical female is the patriarchy/system/society in that case. Men are made to run things, because if they don't then they're sexually neglected and promptly genetically disposed of. Men are "supposed" to want women and do things for her, as the superior in the relationship. If a man cannot achieve this, then he is tormented for the rest of his life trying to and never achieving the superiority he's meant to prove, always living in her shadow.

In my opinion, this is still patriarchy, but I also think that in times of economic crisis, patriarchy doesn't primarily harm women, but men, because women have nothing to prove.

>>45161796
>Misandrists that are women are responsible.
>men were not responsible for mysogyny. Instead, the mysogynists that were men were responsible for it.
>t's imprecise to say men run society. Instead, those who run society are men. Men, at large, have little to do with it.

So only those who are in charge are responsible for misogyny?

>>45161669
So everything men do is for a hypothetical woman? And this hypothetical woman spent the entirety of human history prior to maybe 300 years ago forcing men to treat women like property, not let them vote, not let them seek divorces, and physically abuse them?

>>45161777
>I'm going to guess by your replies that you are not actually open to changing your mind. There isn't really a reason to continue talking if that's the case.
>
No, I'm open to changing my mind. I just like to keep my posts to one at a time if possible.
>Ignorant of history. I'm not going to continue to argue with you over the basic fact that during segregation black women WERE treated as threats to white women. Same with lesbians to straight women.
They were, but it was different. Black women were not accused of being pedophiles or rapists, but violent. Lesbians were not accused of being pedophilic or violent, but instead being rapists, and even then women exactly concerned about being impregnated or anything.
>So the patriarchy isn't misogynistic?
Yes.
>If someone rewarded you for being lesser than them, and punished you for being equal to them, how might you describe that person's feelings towards you?
Accepting, non-judgemental, and open-minded of me, but also narcissistic.
>This is recursive reasoning.
You asked me what BEYOND misandry caused homophobia. That's like asking what shape beyond having 3 sides can make something a triangle. The question itself was fucked up. Not my answer.
>There is a difference between recognizing that men have run society and saying that all men everywhere have an equal say in that society.
Yeah, but the unequality in say is absurd. A man runs society. Not men. The runners of society are men. Men do not run society.
>So where did the patriarchy come from?
Wilderness created the patriarchal incentives originally.
>How did the patriarchy create misandry?
Same way it created misogyny. It rewarded those who conformed to it and punished those that did not. This escalated due to society constructing patriarchy further than just what the wilderness demanded.

The gender norms were baked into society. And society generated wealth. So here we are today.

>>45153548
Misandry isn’t real, it’s just a coping mechanism for frustrated women and for hons trying to feel more feminine by pretending to be misandrist. People are only transphobic because of foid worship

>>45162066
Okay, you know I think it’s clear from this answer you either aren’t arguing in good faith or are incapable of introspection. I don’t have time to engage in this right now. If the post is still up tonight, I’ll respond then

>>45161242
>It is misogyny to view people who do not fit into the male role as lesser than those who do.
It depends on the gender of those people.
>Yes, marginalized women throughout history have always been treated as a danger to women who are of higher value to the system. That is not new, or unique to trans women.
A danger to women, sure. But not a pedophilic rapist.
Further, this is consistent also with how women have always treated men. It just so happens that there's some overlap between how women treat men and how women treat outcasted women. There are still some fundamental differences though
>>45160576
>Why do you think they treat trans women like gay men?
Because they think trans women are gay men.
>>45161937
>So only those who are in charge are responsible for misogyny?
No? How did you get that? I said two seperate things. Those who run society are men. And those who are mysogynists are men.

The men who run society are not always misogynistic. They often are, but not always.
The misogynists that are male are responsible for what they add to the world, just as any other gendered misogynist is.

>>45162066
>The patriarchy isn’t misogynistic
>It created misogyny
Lmao what?
>Non-judgemental
Really? You don’t think there is a value judgement in punishing someone for acting like your equal? Maybe like a judgment that you aren’t actually equals?

>>45153548
Some transmisogyny (i.e. prejudice against trans women) is misandry, such as the "MEN sneaking into Women's Bathrooms!!1!1!!1!" bit, and some transmisogyny is misogyny (i.e. "Women don't typically code, you're a malebrained soulhon").

>>45153561
Eh, "men as inherent predators to and upon women" is a major theme in TERF and social conservative transmisogyny, wherein trans women are painted as the men in question.

>>45154061
The other side of this coin is trans women being invalidated due to male interests/patterns of thought that are possible but unlikely for a cis woman to hold.

help
I on phone
NUANCE HAT
EMERGENCY NUANCE HAT

>>45162115
>Okay, you know I think it’s clear from this answer you either aren’t arguing in good faith or are incapable of introspection.
If it's a problem on my end, then it's likely the latter. I don't see the problem or think the issue here is that I'm mistaken. I could be. But I'd be lying if I said I didn't have an informed opinion
>I don’t have time to engage in this right now. If the post is still up tonight, I’ll respond then
Yes you do have time. And no you won't. You'll think about that shit all the way until you either come up with something new(unlikely) or silently believe you're right, despite my critiques, and move on with your life.

I'm not expecting you, as a trans woman, to not be mind-raped by the trans misogyny misandry divide. It's normal to struggle with it, and there was never a way for you unfortunate lot to win. It was rigged against you from the start when you either caved or volunteered to transitioning in our culture.

>>45162269
>>I don’t have time to engage in this right now. If the post is still up tonight, I’ll respond then
>Yes you do have time.
I have class in 2 minutes and then have to drive 6 hours to Nashville, king.

>>45162171
>Lmao what?
Would you call patriarchy misogynistic if I could prove to you it's more misandrist? It's obviously not. It just produces gender discrimination as an effect. It's like saying that the raw wilderness is misogynistic. It's not. It just makes misogyny happen sometimes.
>Really? You don’t think there is a value judgement in punishing someone for acting like your equal? Maybe like a judgment that you aren’t actually equals?
There is. But I meant judgement as like criticism. They'd tear me down for being good at something, not for being bad. They'd be mad at me, not for anything I should be ashamed of, but for shit that I should be proud of.

Such a person is a double edged sword. They're there when you need them, but they bite your hand when they need you.

They aren't really judging you by any objective standards. They just want to be better than you. The problem is that you're a woman, and you've made the man judge himself and it makes him seethe, not that you're inferior for any real reason.

The judgement of such a person has no intrgrity whenever they judge you worse merely for being better than them. Hence, they're mostly non-judgemental the way I see it.

>>45162326
>I have class in 2 minutes and then have to drive 6 hours to Nashville, king
Damn. Okay.
>king
Fuck you! I'm not "king" on 4chan /lgbt/. I get enough of that in real life. This is the one place I can admit such things to others without ruining everything.

>>45161669
This. All you have to do is look at arguments among men with no women present and their whole value system revolves around appeasing and performing for some hypothetical woman even among gay men.

>>45162326
Girrrr! How dare you call me King on the website with zero consequences! >:( where people howl YWNBAW constantly! Enjoy your drive to Nashville.

>>45160487
>At its core, we have a society that punished femininity and rewarded masculinity for a long time.

Which coincidentally aligns exactly with a woman's value system

>>45159710
Feminism has only bolstered structures that were already there. Systems that men previously suffered from are kept as is but reframed under a lens of feminist revenge. So in the modern times gender roles are instead about performing for feminist ideals.

>>45154061
tpbp
/thread