Post gear, discuss gearHighcom 4S20M Edition.Old: >>65592479>Meanwhile at Highcum Headquarters:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7HKejQXljo
/gq/ Infographic Emporium:https://imgur.com/a/gq-infographic-emporium-1-00-1lZ5xw6Legacy Infographic Reserve: https://imgur.com/a/k-infographic-reserve-AIKzwWF>Last time on /gq/... the thread lasted fifteen years. Highcom dropped four new plates (3I12M, 3S22M, 4S20M, 4S21). Philly Trash Sniper tried to imitation crab the autism, and nobody bought a REAL FUCKIN' HALLIGAN.>QUICK ARMOR GUIDE 2.178CODE: * = active NIJ-cert, ^ = NEEDS SOFT ARMOR, DND = do not drop, ** = military.>Special Rifle Threat:/pfg/: Protech X-CAL LP^DND (Last ditch option!)Budget: Hesco L211Mid-Range: Hesco M210High-End: Hesco U210 / U211, LSAPI**, or Tencate CR-6450SA.>CONUS Minimum (M80, M855, M193):Budget: Hesco 3611C, SAPI**^, or Gilliam 6001Mid-Range: Hesco 3612* or 3810*High-End: Hesco 3811* or 3811LV^DNDElite: Used Cercom CER-EMH**^>CONUS Medium (M80 + M855A1 or BZ API):Budget: Protech 2120-5Mid-Range: Hesco 3411* or LTC 19513High-End: LTC 28780**Elite: VelSys PBZSA**DND or Hesco SC3812 or Protech DT306C-HWElite-Plus: Used Ceradyne MH3 CQB**^DND (10x M995)>CONUS Optimal (M855A1 + M80A1):Budget: Highcom 3S9 (SAPI-cut)Mid-Range: Used LTC 28550** / 28590** or Highcom 3S9M* (SAPI-cut!)High-End: Used LTC 28595**Elite: Used LTC 28570** or VelSys TSA**Elite-Plus: Tyr XHA4/S6/T(DND) or GEN 6 LTC TSA**>Level IV / CONUS High (.30-06 M2AP):/pfg/: Used Protech 2014G (last ditch option)Budget: Gilliam 1023, Protech 2014MC, or Hesco 4403*Mid-Range: Hesco 4601* or ESAPI**^ (REV. G-J)High-End: Hesco 4800(DND), 4800LV^DND, or Protech 9812-R1(DND)Elite: Tencate CXP-800 SA or Ceradyne SOF ESAPI MK.II**^DND or Adept EmperorElite-Plus: Ceradyne SAEC**DND(??)>Level IV+ / CONUS Extreme (Various)Budget: Protech 2230 / Hesco-Protech 2230-1 (M2AP at +600ft/s) or Gilliam 8002 (.300 Winmag Swiss P AP)Mid-Range: Adept Colossus (7.62x51 Swiss P AP) or REV. C XSAPI**^ (M993)High-End: Rev. D XSAPI**^ (7N37?)Elite: ECSAPI** (M993)Elite-Plus: Ceradyne 96034** (7.62x51 Swiss P)
Yay, another thread of this retard talking to himself. >>65620839Sling, belt, holster, chest rig, ammo.
>>65620877NO ARMOR and I will pin this thread again. OG 'Nam issued.
>>65620916hooray!>>65620923Sometimes life is like a sandwich... it all just meshes together...
Introducing a2rip's least favorite infographic in hopes that he comes back from the dead.
>>65620350Follow up on these DT106E plates. They have 22 sets, which is a shitload. However, per Safariland's spec sheet, they're only rated for 7.62x39mm MSC at up to 2,330ft/s and not NIJ RF1 mandated 2,400ft/s. Ergo, M855 v50 is probably lower versus a modern RF1 PE plate. Nerfanon's RF1 backed by poverty IIIA concept is gonna be sketchier with these if anyone is brave enough to try that.
>>65620977Shut the fuck up. Nobody cares.
>>65620982Hi Apex
>>65620923>>65620982>>65620977Let the armor discussion continue. I need motivation to go to the casino. It requires a drive since I was barred from the last one.
>>65620992For the record it makes buying a pair of LTC 23620s for $1,249 off Apex look stupid. You can buy five sets of DT106Es for one pair of those and the weight is almost identical.
>>65620992>and still have $200+ left over for baccarat, or a sixth set of DT106Es!
>>65620999>>65621001I am tempted and now it makes me want two carriers. Weight und cost makes the helions hard to pass up and harder to justify getting DT106E’s but I want. I probably should look at getting something more robust as a next set, but I really enjoy these pe’s a bit too much. I’m really thinking I’ll go the crye slick. Bougie? Maybe.
>>65621010The DT106Es would make for good loaners. They're drop proof, being PE, and a fraction of steel's weight. M855 is a problem, but, well, the no free lunch rule strikes again.>I probably should look at getting something more robust as a next setLevel IVs of some persuasion, probably. Gilliam still has those RF3 1635s in stock. 6.35lb for a 10x12, $400/set.Or wait and see if those Protech 2230-1s turn up surplus. Improved 2230s that are 0.7lb lighter a pop.For headroom, the 1635 has been tested to defeat M2AP about 50ft/s above spec, which isn't great but a little better than a Hesco 4403.
>>65621015While 855 protection would be a nice have, I’m more concerned with stopping your bonded/otm/hp defensive ammo as that seems to be more likely to face at least in conus. There could be some bias there and I don’t exactly plan to find out what m855 penetration feels like. This also is a reminder that I need to pick out some glass for a 24” m855 slinger I’ve had in the works. >IV’sIll bide my time for now. Enjoying how light the rf1’s and ideally want some time behind those before upgrading. They’ll go very nicely for the trash ghillie
>>65621034Sooner or later RF2-rated PE plates will be mainstream and not damn expensive. Unfortunately the Chinese export ban from last bread is putting a damper on that.>While 855 protection would be a nice haveBack with IIIA and hope the barrels are short.>more likely to face at least in conus.Bit of an urban / rural divide. ARPs will not be slinging M855 at full tilt so you at least have that.>Ill bide my time for now. Enjoying how light the rf1’s and ideally want some time behind those before upgrading. They’ll go very nicely for the trash ghillieMore you wait, the better your options become. We still haven't seen Integris' (formerly Tencate, formerly Chuck's) new 0101.07 lineup yet.What I'm seeing is the manufacturers are playing a mexican standoff. Whoever releases first is at a disadvantage. Adept blew their load early with the Emperor and now the distinctly RF3 multi-hit and lighter 4S21M is gonna probably make the single-hit RF3 Emps look stupid. We have not seen Integris. We have not seen Hesco other than the rebadged RF3-400 / 4403.
>>65621042Perhaps we can route through Mongolia. Take advantage of their Korean trade agreement.>back IIIAGood idea. Wouldn’t have thought to turn standard plate into de facto icw. Thickness might be an issue for some carriers. At most I can think of that would probably accommodate that easiest is mepc. Could have changed it could be more. Not sure. Short barrels are closer to a guarantee at this rate. Also a guarantee of some boomer sitting on 15,000 rounds m855 exists out there somewhere. Bro prolly picked up one of those goodie barrels from way back, but a little hazy if that deal was purely m193 or m855.>waitI look forward to the PE future. Will follow those developments enthusiastically assuming a set doesn’t exceed the cost of a usb start Kia soul.
>>65621060The idea actually stems from an anon months ago who worked some contractor job and found all-PE Protech 2113MC-3s backed with IIIA actually kinda did okay against M855, and Buffman's testing of the Longfri LON-III-P where it did show a decent ballistic limit.M855 is not AP and it's not a silver bullet versus PE. It needs velocity to get the job done, more than more advanced rounds like A1 or M995 do. DocGKR has said before tungsten M995 goes through all-PE plates like air. Absolute no contest.Also the practice of backing standalone with IIIA reduces BFD and increases v50 ballistic limit too, in general.Speaking of, Adept has now formally released their IIIA / HG2 Bulletfoam trauma pad. It's meant to provide substantial BFD reduction and can be used as a IIIA backer all the same.https://lauraburgess.com/adept-armor-launches-bulletfoam-torso-pad-first-armor-made-from-its-new-ballistic-foam/Furthermore, Mehler Vario has now purchased MARS Armor of Bulgaria. MARS came up recently because they now have a very impressive VPAM PM-12 plate. Also important because they're a major player in the Euro market, competing with Tencate. Mehler is doing this as part of an "international growth" strategy, so it's only a matter of time before they enter the CONUS arena.https://bodyarmornews.com/mehler-systems-acquires-majority-stake-in-mars-armor-to-strengthen-its-presence-in-eastern-europe/Mehler is like BAE Systems. They make advanced stuff but they work in the shadows and sell nothing to regular joes.If you want your PE fix, Mehler may eventually be willing to deal. Will have to see. They do make 7.62x39 rated visors, which are welcome.
>>65621076It’s worth a shot. I’ll have to check up on thickness requirements especially for adept. Barring that, Gilliam’s inserts. I’d honestly like to get my hands on some m995, but I think this is mostly wishful hopes and dreams. >MehlerWe can only hope. I am skeptical but we will see. Good things come from Bulgaria. VPAM when
Any recommendations on split front rig? I have my eye on a mav, but looking for alternatives as well. Guess flc applies, sort of.
>>65621328The Bulletfoam can compress, so it's not a straight 0.5" thick in practice. IMO, you're still gonna need platebags with a lot of depth, especially if you're rolling PEs.Not gonna lie, I'm not a fan of backpack plates that are only IIIA or "IIIA+" limited rifle. If you're in an active shooter sitch then it'll be 5.56 wholesale and the jury is out on whether it'll be M193 or M855, so IIIA stuff like the Bulletfoam is gonna get mopped anyway. I keep an ESAPI in my work bag.>VPAM whenPepperidge Farm remembers when the Colossus was advertised PM-12...
>>65620977Think these would be good candidates for stacking my AR500 steel IIIAs on top for ghetto RF2? Better than pasta plates even?
>>65621810Definitely better than pasta. This is modern 7.62x39mm MSC-rated, 0101.06 certified PE. The pasta is 0101.03 and not MSC rated.
Figured I'd drop in so you queers stay in your containment. Gilliam doesn't list weights on their page. Anyone want to enLIGHTen me?
>>65621836The weights are in the table on each page, where it says technical specifications.
This thread is a top result if you google highcom 4s20m. Fucking lol.
>>65621815My only question at this point is thickness. Wonder if I can cram that ghetto solution into a Botach Discreet...
>>65621785I think I’ll be okay with the plate bag at least with crye but this is precisely why the slickster/others are iffy. >backpackBro needs a double laptop sleeve for surprise m855>>65621836As an unpaid, uncontracted Gilliam rep, the website has two different sections. A table as referenced in >>65621839 and then the actual product page. Hope this helps.
>>656219261.2" plus 5mm steel is 1.4" total, so that's thick but not ungodly.>>65621933Worth noting the old RMA 1155 was 1" thick, so people getting by with those in the slickster had a thinner solution than this 1.2" Protech.
OD helmet. Thread decides carrier color. Philly Trash Sniper cannot choose. Grey might blend in with trash.
>>65621933gilliam got empty shelves like 2 models on the block sold out how can u do biz like that
>>65622069green and tan so you blend in with every single fed using the same ass Tyr carrier. Gray is gonna be funky if you ever go outside the city. would do OD just to match helm.
>>65622071his 10 year chinese PE supplier went to Chinese gulag bro he can't make Helions no more.It's 1635s for days until he gets the new version and the 8002 Light / 8002 Heavy out.
>>65622038Technically VISM (which makes the Botach) says their Discreet technically only holds 1" thick plates, with my measurements giving a more generous 1.3-1.5" max, and the pastas are like 0.7" thick on their own. Given that the IIIAs I have are build-up anti-frag coat, that means you need to add maybe an extra 1-3mm of thickness to that depending on whether the AR500 Armored Republic armor gremlins were drunk at work that day or not.tl;dr: A Protech III/AR500 IIIA plate combo might fit, but it'd be very tight on my budget basement $20 PC. Even my current pasta/AR500 setup is sorta pushing it.
>>65622158Remember if it's two pieces you can use the plate to wedge the other item and apply leverage. That's how I can fit IIIA armor express backers behind my 2230s in a modified TT vest, which puts me over 1.4". The 7.5lb, M2AP at 3,510ft/s IV+ and the Level III PE 2.8lb DT106E are interestingly the same thickness. Protech must consider 1.2" to be a hard cutoff.Either way I expect you'll have to man-ass the Protech DT106E + AR500 combo in.
>>65622197On that note I wonder what sort of protection a layer of IMPAC-HT/ST or K-30s on top of a pasta would give, since those are steel but without thicker coatings. RF1, maybe RF2 lite/M855 at ARP velocity?
>>65622071We hustlin>>65622076It’s an OD helmet with black arc rails because they were on sale cheaper than other rails. It needs painted or a cover. I still have that plastic spray suggestion from months ago. For what it is worth, I intend to use a split rig of some kind. Maybe one of my many flc’s which will then be green/digi with non-matching pouches. Every camo in the rainbow.
>>65622226Compare areal density of those to the AR500 IIIA steel. It's 4.125lb or so for a 10x12" K-30 versus 4lb for AR500's IIIA, and the K-30 is more of a "IIIB." Has a bunch of additional threats above IIIA spec.Either way we're at ~6.8lb, strong IV+ Protech 2230-1 weight, for a quasi-RF2.
>>65622432Given that the pasta plate is like 3.3 lbs on its own, it's gonna be heavier. Also, I was thinking if I got a pair of the trauma pad-sized speed plate K-30s and slapped them on top in an overlapping fashion, which would add some weight, maybe up to 25%. So we're looking at 8 lbs probably. Also, the AR500 IIIA is already effectively a IIIB, given its effective immunity to .30 Carbine and limited resistance to 7.62x39 lead FMJ out of Dracos.I was just wondering if I could get some cheap K-30s from the Brotach grab bag and throw it on top of a pasta plate as an RF1 equivalent loaner for relatives. If it stops RF2 threats even at lower velocities that'd be a bonus.
Buy stockpiles now. Conserves, food, candles, solar cell to charge USB devices, radio, blankets, batteries, tools, axes for firewood, USB-chargable water heater (connect to solar cell, doesn't cost more than 50 dollars), etc. Water bags out of plastic. toilet paper.
>>65622758Literally why now? Shouldn’t it be routine?
On another note, what if you stack pasta PE IIIs? Like straight up manage to cram two of them into a carrier pocket, stacked on top of each other. Yes, I know it'll be stupidly thick and heavy, but I'm talking an extreme emergency. True RF1 maybe?
>>65622562Pasta + 2x of the 5x8s comes out to 6.06lb. Hesco 4600 weight. Speaking of, we never got the results from that guy who bought a pair of the recalled $90 Botach 4600s, actually. I was anticipating M855A1 + M80A1 actual protection, but it seems like Brotach C&D his azz.>Also, the AR500 IIIA is already effectively a IIIB, given its effective immunity to .30 Carbine and limited resistance to 7.62x39 lead FMJ out of Dracos.Test data is test data, but I would exercise caution as a rule with AR500 brand AR500. This is the company that made claims such as III+ steel stopping "black tip" 7.62x51mm. If they don't advertise it, don't bank on it. If they advertise it, still don't bank on it. Rely on that PE.>I was just wondering if I could get some cheap K-30s from the Brotach grab bag and throw it on top of a pasta plate as an RF1 equivalent loaner for relatives.Odds are good that'll work.>>65623203MSC isn't gonna pierce double-thick Level III PE.
Botach Surplus has a police trade... Golden Dragon Katana.https://surplus.botach.com/police-trade-golden-dragon-katana/>PROCEDURES BROKEN>TOC GOES UNSPOKEN>ENTRY TEAM EVEN FORGOT THEIR DONUTSAlso twelve SET 24" breaching sledgehammers, $120 a pop.https://surplus.botach.com/s-e-t-special-entry-tools-24-breaching-sledgehammer-police-trade/
>>65623857I’m more tempted in gucci’ing out a .40sw glock. They’ve taken horrible care of their bolt cutters.
>>65623875The 24" "law enforcement" ones aren't terrible but need new rubber on the handles. Rest are pretty beat.
>>65623903At first, I thought you were talking Glock 24 which is a fantastic weapon. But yes, some tlc required. Probably go through another bike tire. In my mind, I’d prolly wrap the grips after rust treatment and a tea boil. Then cover wrap in shrunken tire.
>>65623936Curious if "padlock inflation" is a thing given the issue of bike thefts and resulting higher security locks. Will need longer, higher leverage boltcutters just to do basic stuff.Prices honestly aren't awful if you're able to DIY. Need to get some of those hydraulic cutters the bike thieves use.
>>65623690Good to know. Wonder if stacked pasta plates will even do M855 at lower velocities. Damn thing will be heavy enough at like 6.6 lbs.
>>65624101Worth noting in the late 00s DefenseTech had an all-PE M855 rated plate called the DT855. 5.2lb HB25. A 6.6lb solution should be fine even if the exact grade of PE used is inferior.
>plate carrier is 25 lbs slickI'm taking the side plates out
>>65624117hesco 4403 / 4100 gang?
>>65624112I've got a few sets of pasta, doubled plates should work for one setup and the other will likely be AR500 IIIA on top of another pasta set. They will be heavy/thick but mostly functional RF1/RF2 lite loaners for relatives, which is all you can really ask for at the price point of "shit I bought years ago for basically nothing and has been sitting sealed in airtight plastic in my garage ever since".
>>656241364s17m / 4s17
>>65623857Wonder what fedora-clad blade studier they confiscated that from. Hilarious that the department traded it to Botach for something, and even funnier that Botach accepted it.
>>65624163Did you at least get a good price? Should have been a pair of 4403s, or if you're cool with Chinese, Gilliam 1635s which would have saved you POUNDS for LESS.4S17M is basically just the 4SAS7 from 2009 mildly beefed up and with drop protection. Apex Armor even implies that directly. Very antiquated plate. Also the 10x12 is undersized, unlike Hesco or Gilliam, so I hope you got SAPI cut.Pair of 1635s with 6x8 sides would be 19lb. >>65624138And that's a good plan. Something is better than nothing for the crew.>>65624198Botach had surplus hand sanitizer for sale. They'll take anything.
>>65624231I've never seen them resell confiscated stuff though. It's always something that an LE agency could technically reuse for official purposes in some way. Oddest shit ever. That said, I've also got a single plate of that oversized Italian pink ceramic III+ stuff. Seems to pass torque too. I don't think there's a carrier available today that fits it since its like 18" tall or some shit.
>>65624255>I've never seen them resell confiscated stuff though. It's always something that an LE agency could technically reuse for official purposes in some way. Well a Katana technically does exceed NIJ Level IIIA protection and a sword does convey more authority in some cultures than a gun...Not saying it's a good idea but there genuinely could have been a deputy someplace somewhere who EDC'd a wallhanger.>That said, I've also got a single plate of that oversized Italian pink ceramic III+ stuff.Ah, that's the chromium-doped alumina stuff. Better multi hit, lower hardness so it's not ideal for serious steel core threats. Russians used to use that in older ceramic plates at lower threat levels. Mostly fell out of practice versus 99.7% and ZTA grades. Russians now use white Alumina in the heavy BR5+ 7N37 stoppers. Possibly ZTA.Food for thought, Buffman said he was able to pen an Alumina Level IV with Swiss P AP at 2,400ft/s, so those older Alumina plates claiming Swiss P AP defeat must have been at piss poor velocity. CPC TC4C, IAC IA0037, etc, unless the Alumina was doped. IIRC people said they were ZTA (zirconia-toughened).>I don't think there's a carrier available today that fits it since its like 18" tall or some shit.Gonna have to be a custom.
>>65624231>Did you at least get a good price?I don't know what you consider a "good" price for them, but I'm going to assume no.
>>65624326$350 or less for the pair. Unless you need DEA standard compliance on top of NIJ, the 4S17M needs to be significantly cheaper than the Hesco 4403 to be a good deal. The 4S17M is 8.6lb SAPI M versus the 4403's 7.9lb and there is otherwise no reasonable increase in protection to justify that. An 8.6lb Level IV should be a tungsten stopping tank, akin to the Gilliam 8002.If you/anon got the 4S17Ms off reddit's advice, I understand, their armor posters are suspiciously rizzing up Apex's products (Highcom / LTC / Tencate) to the point I think they're on some kinda payroll. Also they do not ever rec a Hesco product, which is a clear tell something is off because you should be brand agnostic unless there are numerous reasons to shitlist a company, a la RMA or American Blast Systems. Hesco failing some FITs over half a decade ago, but making good on recalls / replacements / recertifications is not reason to shitlist current products.
>>65624297Probably why it survived conscripts and shipping to me, it's tougher but softer. Still, from the online tests I've seen it stops M855 and the wide variety of mild steel cored stuff out there, so I can't complain since I got it from SG for a song, along with all the pasta PEs. Prices so low it was almost free before shipping. I miss those days. We didn't know how well we had it until it was almost over and we were scrambling to get one last order in.
>>65624363Indeed. I think the Russian doped alumina plates capped out at 7N10 / 7.62x54R LPS. BZ API and up (and ergo M855A1) you'll want normal Alumina. I've never seen a high-level pink alumina plate (BR5 / NIJ IV). Jake Ganor has a good article on the stuff here: https://bodyarmornews.com/coloration-in-aluminum-oxide-ceramics-and-does-the-color-of-alumina-ceramics-affect-their-ballistic-performance/
>>65624381Frankly the great Sportsman's Guide pasta clearance was the closest to an armor free lunch we'll ever see in our lifetimes. $50 0101.03 IIIs and $70 0101.03 ceramic III+s with low shipping costs and vast quantities. Even if the plates were old spec and some were completely roached you still made out like a bandit since everyone with a brain bought that shit in bulk and 0101.03 III is still far better than the cheap Chinese IIIA that dominates that price range. We were like gods swathed in old dirty full-body PE that still stopped M80 ball like a chad. Those days will never come again.That said I think the AP98 vest rig the Italians used had a layer of soft armor UNDER the pasta PE IIIs. Since shoring up weak plates against overspec threats with soft armor is a thing, I can see that specific setup being effectively RF1 since not stopping 7.62x39 MSC is an odd oversight for a military plate in an area traditionally swathed with that kind of mild steel threat.
>>65613718Update, I got one of these. First thing I saw was the warning to not hit with a hammer or to extend with a pipe (cheater bar). This shit actually jiggles a little. Otherwise is... okay.Probably passable if you're a bounty hunter hunting down crackheads in balsa wood light residential housing, but that begs the question of why you can't just kick the door in if you're able to breach.Actual forced entry traditionally uses a combination of tools and not being able to marry this shit with a basic fuckin' hammer is a red flag.
>>65624427Agreed, but I'd say the copsurp Protech 2230s were a better almost free lunch. $1,260 a set (as of 2019) MSRP plates on sale to regular people for $400 a set or less. Lighter than a 4403, double the 7.62x51mm M80 multi-hit, built in trauma pad, ridiculous 600ft/s+ headroom advantage on M2AP versus the 4403 failing to M2AP 30-50ft/s over spec. But of course, the lunch is never free. Just as the Italians could have been roached, the 2230s...1. were all expired across the board. Doesn't matter if the plates were treated well since there's no recorded adhesive issue and the backer is aramid, so it's more resilient to age and heat than polyethylene.2. Could be damaged, but have extensive drop foam so that shouldn't be a huge issue.3. The 2230 has a doppelganger predecessor called the 2220-1 which looks identical except on close inspection (label / absence of front foam on the 2220-1). At least one guy got a 2220-1 instead of a 2230.>the price to the right is Ohio's 2019 negotiated state-level 45% discount with Safariland. Yes, they were getting boron carbide 9812-R1s, which sidegrade the Hesco 4800, for $547 a plate. 2230s for $346 a plate.
>>65621718FLCFrom Venture Surplus.
>>65621718Tasmanian Tiger TT Vest. Like an FLC but accepts plaaaaaaates.
HIGHCOM DOWN BAD.
>>65624456Very true on the extreme discount/value, although the SG pasta clearance was a true /pfg/ festival. That said, what do you think about the AP98's soft armor base layer making the plate combo effectively RF1? Makes sense?
>>65624481Yeah, it's a different "bracket" of quasi-free lunch. The italians are better than D-grade destitute chinesium. The Protechs mog the Hesco 4403 / Highcom 4S17M. A high-end extreme example would be some of the old guard guys getting Ceradyne 96034s for $300-500 a set because people didn't know what they were, or people getting SOF ESAPIs in trades for regular REV. A ESAPIs. Major IYKYK type thing for both.Now most people know golden age Ceradyne (2000-2013) was the tip top of armor.>That said, what do you think about the AP98's soft armor base layer making the plate combo effectively RF1? Makes sense?Worth looking into, for sure. Depends on strength / condition of soft armor because you're asking the plate to do something (7.62x39 MSC @ 2,400ft/s) it was never designed to handle, and what newer gen PE plates like the Protech DT106E explicitly cannot handle. Also, for what it's worth, even the new, top of the line Hesco 3801 is only good for that threat up to 2,390ft/s. Yes, that matters.
>>65620943Is there a version of this where the book titles are legible?
>>65624362>$350 or less for the pair.then no, I didn't get a good deal.>the 4S17M needs to be significantly cheaper than the Hesco 4403 to be a good deal.I wholeheartedly agree. I'm probably going to end up replacing them.>If you/anon got the 4S17Ms off reddit's advice, I understand,sorta. reddit recommended me apex and I found the cheapest level IV (with full certs, I was smart enough for that at least) and went with it.
>>65624381Here's the paragraph:> For us and IMO - Tiles from one batch of 99.7% alumina come from the same powder lot and share one quality report, but they don't all fire under identical conditions. In a large kiln, tiles near the burners, walls or the top of the load see slightly higher temperatures and a different gas atmosphere than tiles in the middle. Those small differences change how completely the organic binder burns out and how the trace elements, such as the magnesium oxide added to control grain growth and the few hundredths of a percent of iron and titanium, settle in the finished ceramic. The result is a visible range from ivory-white to cream across tiles that are chemically the same. The batch's quality report averages a sample of tiles, so its purity, density and hardness figures cover the whole batch, and a moderate shade difference within one batch is cosmetic. It isn't, by itself, a sign of lower performance.
>>65624493I mean, 7.62x39 MSC is common enough in Europe that I can't see even the Italians not considering it as a threat when writing up their RFP for the AP98 armor system. Given that we've seen pasta IIIs backed by soft IIIA stop even M855 out of 16" barrels, if we consider the pasta PEs as de facto ICW proto-RF1s things start to make a lot more sense.
>>65624530Yeah but the kicker is that older gen PE physically wasn't up for the job versus 7.62x39 MSC at normal areal density. They had SS109 too, which would mop the floor with any PE plate unable to handle MSC. Just means they favored reduced areal density versus comprehensive protection. Worth noting if the hard armor was 0101.03, the soft armor was too, and 0101.03 is a far more lenient standard. Back an old plate with newer, better soft armor and it'll do better.Another factor is that there are always multiple tiers of plates. They had the pink ceramic III+'s and apparently some flavor of IV too. Just like how modern US Military is VTP ULWSAPI, LSAPI, ESAPI, then XSAPI. Side bar, the new GEN-IV XSAPI is probably gonna be the "ultimate" overt CONUS plate. Really nice specs if you can do 58mm max BFD.>>65624510>reddit recommended me apexLet me guess, usernames Pearlbutter or Protorin? Best budget "replacement" is the Gilliam 1635 if you're cool with presently uncertified armor. If not, 4403s. If you can raise budget substantially then Hesco 4601s. If you can't, Militech RF3 Black Label is worth a hard look.>>65624523Very interesting info!
>>65624553Related comment here before I eat a ton of candy - we have seen that 100% PE plates are more vulnerable to MSC on oblique. The MSC core is slow to deform and PE is weaker when loaded sideways (MSC does a lot of cutting)... so have to make sure you get a test report with a 30 degree angle or so on that threat.
>>65624553That said we've seen even lower pasta armor, apparently the Italian AP95 armor was hard pressed aramid IIA or equivalent. You're right, they went for comprehensive coverage over strength since the cuirass-looking things were full torso coverage like a Conquistator. Apparently a few showed up during the giant pasta clearance but were mostly sold by smaller surp outfits.
>>65624572Funny enough, I was just combing through RMA's latest plates, the "GEN2" 1062 RF1 and the GEN2 1003 SRT, which just released right on schedule. The new all-PE 1003 does not have any 30 degree 7.62x39 MSC shots, and neither does the old version. Basically, only difference between the two is that the new version is a 9.5x11.5 "not-10x12" like their RF3s. Areal density is the same. Also the new version walked back the 7.62x51mm M80 rating despite no change in areal density, which is odd...7.62x39mm MSC at 30 degrees only appears for the much heavier (3.1lb) RMA 1062 per pic related. Sounds like there might be a risk of penetration with the 1003 SRTs against angled 7.62x39mm MSC. Otherwise, why only test angled 7.62x39mm MSC on the stronger RF1? Side bar, the 1062 GEN2 is 3.1lb SAPI M and $700 a pair. The Hesco 3801 is 1.91lb SAPI M and $1,050 a pair. Save up $350 and you get a 60% weight reduction. But of course, no free lunch! The 3801 is modified III, not RF1, and so it's a hair short on MSC. Also not exactly the right kind of MSC, as per NIJ 0123.00. NIJ very specifically wants Type 56 Chinese from Factory 31. Hesco tested M43.>>656245740101.03 era was basically the last dance for first world mainline armor being pistol rated. Even since the ISAPO and later SAPI dropped, it's been rifle ratings all day every day. Starting to see that reverse a little with the ULWSAPI and USMC Lite SAPI, since those have limited threat profiles and/or standoff required. IMO, flexible rifle armor will eventually get its day in the sun (like digital NV one day will... at some point... eventually) even if it's more par with those non-flexible solutions.
>>65624574Also under no circumstances are "cuirass" plates dead amigo. See pic rel FORT Technologies ACP-M from Russia. 7N37 protection, heavy ass stuff. The 10x13 is 9lb, and this seems to be an 11x14. As you know, full torso plates can get pretty big. 12x15, 15x16, 13.3x16.5, and some of those Italians were like 18" long. At this threat level those cuts are going to be extremely punishing, so the threat level must go down. As you describe, comprehensive coverage versus strength.The only reason why this stuff really hasn't caught on is that oversize plates are:1. Ergonomically a pain in the ass.2. Induce a tremendous weight penalty.Flexible rifle armor can resolve problem #1 at least partially, since it can bend, but that is dependent on the design. I have some FRAS that doesn't bend for shit unless I really force it, but that's Safelife for you. Tencate Ceraflex you can literally bend in half like the plate is a taco, it's ridiculous, but that's Tencate. Best name in the industry. Also they made that stuff so early Blackwater mercenaries were rolling with it in early Iraq.Problem #2, the weight penalty, requires the use of exotic materials and that cranks up the cost. Stealth Armor Systems has RF2 boron carbide DragonSkin 3.0 on tap at 3.1psf areal density, but that's gonna be real expensive. Still enables a very stout (vs soft armor) full torso solution. The deal fell through, but some time ago SAS teased Dragonskin sporting B4C Laminate or Polycrystalline Diamond scales. Those would have been even lighter.
>>65624647Very interesting. Some folks don't understand "why" the angled shots are taken as part of official NIJ ITT (even with ceramic armor).. and it's because anything harder than lead can introduce sideways stresses and ply delams in PE... and the oblique shots are highly important. .30 M2AP is much harder than MSC and the core often gets into the backer in large pieces --- so angled very important. Goodnight. H Halloween.
>>65624671Obviously talking about rifle armor in last post... but soft armor has it's own problems even with 9mm FMJ skipping off the strike face (think shot 7 NIJ 0101.07 at the neckline)
>>65624678Yeah, I've seen industry people complain about that shot #7. There was an NIJ-hosted workshop some months back and people were raising a fit. Frankly, I think NIJ is too easy for soft armor and would prefer if 0101.07 just copycatted the FBI soft armor protocol, but that comes with the caveat of making a lot of PE soft armor uncertifiable because FBI tests for contact shots and NIJ does not. However, that could be justified:>"According to the last batch of data I saw reported from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, approximately 1/3 of the incidents where officers were killed or wounded occurred at contact or near-contact distances. This seems like a fairly high potential for contact shots, yet NIJ inexplicably fails to test for this event. Contact shots can cause extensive damage to polyethelene laminate soft vest materials">https://www.itstactical.com/gearcom/body-armor/soft-body-armor/ >(citing Dr. Gary K Roberts).
>>65624693Since we're on soft and balcs got a question I hope you brothers can answer. My company is getting these shitty vest with no way to insert anything. My company wants us to act like security guards now instead of being plain clothes for 30y+. Ballin on a budget and have no idea how long I can last with idiots at the helm. What's a good balcs or similar. The carrier I can find. Should I cheap out and just get square inserts or is there is a decent cheap balcs out there? I really don't want to look like security or a cop without some sort of protection.
>>65624737Define budget. If you can swing some cash, Highcom, despite the memeing on their plates, does actually make good soft armor. Look to the SA3920 for IIIA. It's triple standard compliant. NIJ certified, DEA, and FBI. Shitloads of sizing options, BALCS included.https://www.highcomarmor.com/product/highcom-trooper-sa3920/If you're middle of the road, SA3100. If you really mean ballin on a budget, 86 the NIJ certs and look to Gilliam, Militech, maybe Stealth Armor Systems. Avoid Safelife. I see Gilliam now has an aramid HG2 panel, FWIW.
>>65624737>My company is getting these shitty vest with no way to insert anything.bro is running pasgt?
>>65624466Ich habe vier Digga so this is to get done go birds >>65624468Ja aber worried of pe plate thickness but I may just do it
i did the impossible... I... I... I... redeemed Hesco on reddit
>>65625123https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRYhAdsKXEQ
>>65625116If the TT can fit 1.2" 2230s then it can fit 1.15" Helions.>>65625128>DO NOT REDEEM HESCO 4403>NO HEADROOM>NO HEADROOM>FAILS TO M2AP 30FT/S ABOVE SPEC>ENEMY TIMMY IN BUSH WITH .300 BRAHMIN MAGNUM AND THERMAL SCOPE>HE WILL REDEEM YOU
>>65625140Two carriers and… AN EXCUSE FOR MORE ARMOR! Happy Halloween
>>65625140>FAILS TO M2AP 30FT/S ABOVE SPECYes, that's what above spec means.
>>65625157Happy halloween indeed. I just picked up a policesurp KDH carrier I'm gonna throw some PE Tencates in and some spare nylon as a secondary go-fast rig. Might grab some of those DT106Es myself as spares, but I am budgeting for those 8002Hs if Gilliam does succeed in commercializing a 7N37 rated plate. It would be the first one on the open market. As a purpose-designed, long core XSAPI killer, 7N37 proxies much better for truly modern ceramic-oriented tungsten AP, unlike 20th century M993 or Swiss P AP. M993 was originally designed back in the 1960s and designed to engage light armored vehicles. Swiss P AP was designed to challenge 1990s Alumina or B4C Level IV plates with fiberglass backers. Not applicable to modern aramid / PE stuff with SiC faces, which is what an XSAPI is.His specs (for now) are still 7.75lb / 1.25" SAPI M, multi or single curve. Lighter than a SAPI M Hesco 4403 and 0.25lb heavier than a 10x12 Protech 2230.
>>65625166The whole argument against Hesco is that they only build their plates to barely meet requirements, which isn't a problem if the threat environment is "known" and static. In exchange, they're usually the lightest in each class. This means they're fine generalists but make for poor contingency plates.
>>65625199Hefty for a plate but hopefully pulls through. Have my eye on this mystery Romanian rig, but depends on shipping. Clubs first then armor later.
>>656252317.75lb SAPI M ain't that bad for an emergency "shit's real bad" plate. The FORT ACP-M is 9lb flat as a ~10x13 mimicking SAPI L and should be 7.87lb SAPI M, so the math roughly checks out on the 8002H given 7N37 is the primo threat for both. The ACP-M is also a somewhat older plate (~2020) and thus can't take advantage of modern improvements in UHMWPE.Remember, basic bitch RMA 1155s are over 8lb as well as typical Level III steel plates. Plenty of people "get by" with those.
>>65624475I just had a thought. What if /gq/'s armor autists bought out Highcom's stock and gained control of the company?>inb4 officially renaming them Highcum and the 4SAS4 to the 4SUS4
>>65625242Not terrible, not great. Very dyatlov. Question being is the weight worth the protection? Those 1155’s are honestly terrible speaking from experience. I’d like to see them in the 6lb range. Also semi related but would you expect an eventual deviation from sapi m type cuts to larger coverage plates?
