What is the history of this country?
>>18757650>starts off as territory passed around by Slavs and Poles>becomes completely within Russia's sphere of influence>USSR happens>Ukraine is responsible for most of their technological achievements>USSR collapses and Ukraine is independent>Ukraine Nationalist Movement starts>Pan-Slavism gains momentum>Pan-Slavists want to re-unite Russia and Ukraine because they think it'll make both countries less of a shithole (it wont) >Ukrainian Nationalists don't want to be associated with Snow Nigerians >America does the smart thing and sits out this retarded slapfight>Autistic Europeans and third worldists from Russia and India on the internet now just use the conflict between the two for their own personal culture wars while men die in cold trenches from drone strikes.
odessa needs to go back to romania
>>18757654>>Ukraine is responsible for most of their technological achievements@grok is this true?
>>18757662Sergei Korolev, the father of the Soviet Space Program, was Ukrainian
>>18757665Korolev was born in the city of Zhytomyr, the capital of the Volhynian Governorate of the Russian Empire (now in Ukraine). His father, Pavel Yakovlevich Korolev, was born in Mogilev to a Russian soldier and a Belarusian mother.[8][9][10][11]His mother, Maria Nikolaevna Koroleva (Moskalenko/Bulanina), was a daughter of a wealthy merchant from the city of Nizhyn, with Zaporozhian Cossack, Greek and Polish heritage.[10][12]His father moved to Zhytomyr to be a teacher of the Russian language.
Better question: what exactly is a Ukrainian?
>Zaporozhian Cossacks to the Turkish Sultan!>O sultan, Turkish devil and damned devil’s kith and kin, secretary to Lucifer himself. What the devil kind of knight are thou, that canst not slay a hedgehog with your naked arse? The devil shits, and your army eats. >Thou shalt not, thou son of a whore, make subjects of Christian sons; we have no fear of your army, by land and by sea we will battle with thee, f##k thy mother.>Thou Babylonian scullion, Macedonian wheelwright, brewer of Jerusalem, goat-fu##er of Alexandria, swineherd of Greater and Lesser Egypt, pig of Armenia,Podolian thief,catamiteof Tartary, hangman ofKamyanets, and fool of all the world and underworld, an idiot before God, grandson of the Serpent, and the crick in our dick. Pig’s snout, mare’s arse, slaughterhouse cur, unchristened brow, screw thine own mother!>So the Zaporozhians declare, you lowlife. You won’t even be herding pigs for the Christians. Now we’ll conclude, for we don’t know the date and don’t own a calendar; the moon’s in the sky, the year with the Lord, the day’s the same over here as it is over there; for this kiss our arse!>–Koshovyi otamanIvan Sirko, with the wholeZaporozhian Host.
>>18757686Not a Russian
>>18757733So are Indians Ukrainian?
>>18757689KEK
>>18757736Dont be ridiculous.The Ukranian national identity was born similarily to how the Slovakian or Slovenian national identity was born.The Slovene identity was basically "not Austrian", and the Slovak identity was basically "not Hungarian".You could make the exact same case that their national identity are redundant. In fact you could make that case for Macedonia, Latvia, Norway, Belarus and Montenegro.
>>18757650Ukrainian identity is a fabrication. Even just use the use of it extremely modern. The only reason the territory is easr slavic and could become "ukrainian" was due to the Russian empire liberating the region from Tatar slavars and pedo polaks.>>18757733More like not polish. The Ukrainian and Belarusian territories are only "distinct" from the rest of the old Rus. Due to the destruction of the mongols and rhe regions conquest by rhe Lithuanians, which layer joined under poland. They were the weird orthodox eastern slavs in polak territory. That is ignorning the eastern half which was jist depopulated and nomad country until the Russian empire expanded in the region. The birching about Russian "colonists" come from this btw. Ukrainians wanted to be raped bt Crimea Tatars and sold to ottoman harems I guess
>>18757650literally drone bait the country
>>18757650I like how they elevate a minor battle where some Muslim Tatars ambushed a detachment from the Tsardom of Moscow as a great, national building victory, because those Tatars were allied with Poles at the time and Ukrainians were their vassal. But Moskals lost amirite (they won that war).What an utterly raped culture.
>>18759496https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Konotop
>>18757650Famous world renowned biologist Trofim Lysenko was Ukrainian
>>18758949Right but Slovenes/Slovaks are Slavic and Austrians/Hungarians are clearly not. What I’m thinking about is anons example of Sergei Korolev. For people born during the Russian Empire, who are the Ukrainians? Because you have one religion, one state and one dialectical continuum. Where exactly do the Russians stop and the Ukrainians begin?> In fact you could make that case for Macedonia, Latvia, Norway, Belarus and Montenegro.Yes, more or less
Alger Hiss (who was a red agent inside the US pretending to be far right anti-commie) created it by giving Ukraine and Belarus seats at the UN this giving this piece of land cut off from Russia for no reason at all, legitimacy in the western world.
>>18759496>>18759497When you're a nascent/meme ethnicity, you have to go digging in the historical record to find material to construct a nationalist mythology narrative with, because it doesn't organically exist.Since the Ukrainian nationality doesn't historically exist in a vacuum and only exists in opposition to the Russian, they had to find something in which "Ukrainians" defeated "Russians" even if it is contrived as hell.
>>18759517The sad truth is that this applies to most nationality.
>>18759510You still dont get it?Czechs are slavic as well, and right next to Slovaks, so why are you so hyperofocused on Russian-Ukranian line of identity when you have the exact same thing in the examples I listed.Croats are slavic and right next to Slovenes, so when exactly does one stop being Croat and start being Slovene? Or Czech and Slovak?The point I made is that Slovak and Slovene national identity emerged as a seperation from their imperial power, even tho they are almost identical to their neighbours in ethnicitiy, language and culture. The Ukranian national identity emerged similarily
>>18759705I am skeptical of this kind of nationalism generally but this thread happens to specifically be about Ukraine. I’m just asking, what exactly did being Ukrainian even mean to the original Ukrainian nationalists?At least in the case of Czechs and Slovaks, the border was already neatly delineated before Czechoslovakia ever existed because Slovakia is just the bit that was part of Hungary. Clearly, given Ukraine’s borders, there must have been more to it than just "the bit that was part of Poland" because that isn’t actually that much of it, and invites the further question of how it relates to Belarus.
>>18759717>I am skeptical of this kind of nationalism generallyBut thats how nationalism works. Its organic. It developes over time by a geographically disctinct group. A lot of times the seperation can develop just because of a single river. The sheer size of Russia makes it virtually impossible not to have different nations emerging. The real question isnt why the Ukranian national identity exists, the real question is why arent there more independent national identities in Russia. The answer is the collapse of the USSR and the internal borders of the USSR.If Dagestan had been a seperate political entity within the USSR, and consequently become an independent state with the fall of the USSR, you can bet yourself that they would have been just as die-hard if the 2022 war had fallen upon them.
>>18759705Slovaks were to some degree understood as something separate since forever though, kind of like Moravians are understood as separate from the Czechs, we don't exactly know why, as no source bothers to elaborate.
Why did Stalin revert the indigenization project???
>>18759841In none of these cases is it truly organic though. In all of them, the USSR, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, there was a phase of national construction. I’m just asking, before that ever happened, there were already Ukrainian nationalists. So what exactly was the nation they were talking about and why was it distinct from Russia?
>>18759844>we don't exactly know why, as no source bothers to elaborate.Because there is no concrete reason (something which you seem to be demanding). They simply developed seperate from each others over time and it formed a collective concious. This also happened in Ukraine and Belarus.It also happened to the Dutch and the Flemish. To the Swedes and the Norwegians. Ukraine is not some sort of alien extraordinary example. It's just one of the newer ones (tho newest would be Kosovo and Macedonia).
>>18759851> In all of them, the USSR, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, there was a phase of national construction.That's your interpretation but the people themselves would most likely highly disagree with you. If you tell a Macedonian that his national identity is just a Tito construction that wasnt organically emerged over a longer period of time, he's likely to get very upset over this interpretation.
Reminder that a large portion of shills on the internet (including OP probably) has a vested interest in denouncing the national identity of Ukraine, making any honest discussions about the history of ukraine pointless.
>>18759851>So what exactly was the nation they were talking about and why was it distinct from Russia?A distinct collective identity had been growing in that region since tsarist Russia, a seperate culture, language and identity.Its also the fact that Russia is a somewhat "new" country as we know it. For most of European history that part of the world was many seperate states; Kievan, Novgorod, Muscovy etc.Russia is a federation today for a reason, it's fundementally the most multicultural country in Europe. The Russian Caucasus region alone is a cluster of different nationalities that not only grew seperate from Russia, but also seperate from each others.
>>18759990If you want a seriouspost: A distinct Ukrainian national identity began to emerge in the 19th century, evolving out of earlier Cossack traditions and intellectual revivals. This is not vastly different from many other European countries, distinct ethnonationalistic ideas was a common theme for the 19th century.For example, Germany and Italy had similar movements in the 19th century, yet only retards would pretend that Germany and Italy are "made up nations".Similar for Belarus in the late 19th century, many Balkan nations, Norway, Baltic nations, etc.The fallacy these shills are committing is a genetic fallacy. Basically the argument goes "muh ancestors wuz kangs and owned you, so you can't have your own country". Of course they very conveniently cherrypick the point where they "own" another nation, while literally not a single modern nation fits that standard save for countries like Armenia or Greece.
>>18759990Im arguing against OP right now but I wouldnt cal the discussion pointless. Its a perfectly reasonable discussion on what is a nation, what is nationalism, and how does it emerge. In fact its probably the most relevant debate to-date.Sounds more like you're some triggered crycunt who doesnt like it when people discuss topics not approved by reddit.
>>18759985I am not convinced there is anyone in Macedonia with two braincells to rub together that actually believes the we wuz Alexander program. In the west the impression you get from most Balkanites with any brains at all is that they're very cynical about this kind of thing.
>>18760000>only retards would pretend that Germany and Italy are "made up nations".They objectively are tho
>>18760002Even the Macedonians themselves has abandoned the 'Alexander' identity. That doesnt mean that they've abandoned the Macedonian identity: i.e not Serbs, not Bulgarians, but Macedonians.
>>18760003Which nation isn't made up then? Enlighten us Even countries like Greece or Armenia can trace their spotty history, which wasn't consistently Greek or Armenian at all, at best to 500BC.
>>18760004Right but Macedonia has existed as its own territorial unit for quite some time now, as part of Yugoslavia. Naturally an identity has coalesced around it.Before Macedonia was part of Serbia, and especially before Tito started doing his thing, Macedonian nationalism was extremely fringe and even Macedonian nationalists themselves did not really have a coherent narrative, you had Alexander LARP, you had people saying Macedonia is even more Slavic than Bulgaria, you had people angling for a multicultural Balkan Belgium. All of it was extremely niche and they could not even agree with each other.That all changed when the state started actively supporting Macedonism.Ukraine is different. Ukrainian nationalism was already pretty big by the early 20th century while the Russian Empire still existed. What I want to know about, is what exactly is that nationalism about.Clearly there was Ukrainian as a separate East Slavic language. But there has to be more to it than that given all these languages were on a dialectical continuum where there was no clean break between one and the other, Russian itself was very fractured among the lower classes back then with varying degrees of intelligibility.You have the Cossacks, but the cossacks are also closely associated with Russia, and in the Russian Empire especially they were still a major institution that was closely entwined with the empire.Like German unification, had their symbols and grand narrative with Arminius and Widukind and Wagner and the Ottonian Holy Roman Empire and all that shit. What exactly was the Ukrainian narrative and how did they come up with the borders of Ukraine?
>>18760006The United States of America Because it was never intended to be a nation, it was intended to be a political experiment, gradually a nation just happened to coalesce within the borders they controlled as a side effect of that polity existing. It was very almost two nations, but the federal government shut that down.
>>18760014>Which nation isn't made up then?>The United States of AmericaSmartest /his/torylet
>>18760020By all means, explain what exactly about the American narrative is fake. Because as far as I can see, the American narrative is literally just a picture accurate retelling of a few short centuries of relatively recent history.
>>18760010>is what exactly is that nationalism aboutIt's simply the Ukranian nation. You're looking for a concrete answer when there isnt any.We have the exact same argument for Palestinians. What is the Palestinian nationalism all about? Arent they just not Arabs? Why cant they just not be Egyptians or Jordanians? It should have been easy for them to migrate to Jordan and assimilate with the rest of the population.But the answer is more organic than concrete. The Palestinian national identity exists because it exists. It simply emerged over time, seperate from the others, and it became even more defined through the conflict. As is Ukranian.Personally I think the Cossack reference is just Ukraine grasping at straws for some sort of historical root, but it's hard for me as a Swede to sit here and speculate what is a Ukranian. You should probably ask them yourself.
>>18760010>Like German unification, had their symbols and grand narrative with Arminius and Widukind and Wagner and the Ottonian Holy Roman Empire and all that shit. What exactly was the Ukrainian narrative and how did they come up with the borders of Ukraine?Pretty simple, you have the Kievan Rus as a golden age similar to Germans wewuzzing about the HRE, Cossacks as the national spirit, the blue yellow symbolism started in the 1850s similar to Germany's black red gold, and the borders are a mix of ethnographic maps, revolutionary claims and administrative fuckery during Soviet times.
>>18760024That’s a question that’s worth answering and it’s exactly the question Arab pan-nationalists ask of every Arab state > You should probably ask them yourself.I was hoping to do soAlas I forgot this isn’t the 2010s and you can no longer attract Ukrainians and Russians to these threads in droves as a huge chunk of the prime 4chan demographic is dead
>>18760024>hard for me as a Swede to sit here and speculate what is a UkranianWhat is a swede? your national identity is just as made up kek
>>18760030The tribe that cultivated these lands.
>>18760025Ukranian nationalism pretty much emerged almost around the same time as ALL other national awakenings; i.e the 19th century.Before the 19th century people did not view themselves as "French" or "German" or "Spanish". They were subjects of a feudal system where people associated each others to their estates, and the estates to their lords. The idea of a nation only really started to manifest with the aftermath of the French Revolution, when subjects were replaced with citizens.
>>18760033>The tribe that cultivated these lands.Danes
>>18757650There is none. My grandma, God rest her soul, was from Kiev. There were no "Ukrainians" until the 90s, nationalists were laughable illiterate village people. Every civilized city dweller saw themselves as Soviet, or another ethnicity like Greek or Tatar or else and just spoke Russian to each other.
>>18757654>America does the smart thing and sits out this retarded slapfightYou're honestly going to pretend that the Maidan wasn't a CIA backed coup?
>>18757689>No evidence this ever happened
>>18760048Danes never went that far north. They have claim to Skåne (which is infested with arabs atm so they can have it)
There's no chance the cia were involved in maidan in any meaningful capacity, because if they were it would have been an abysmal failure
>>18760356I’m not seeing the success here
>>18757654>Ukraine Nationalist Movement startsIt started in the 19th century as an Austrian plot to both undermine Russia and keep Poland down, was accelerated by Lenin who gave the Ukrainians their own soviet republic just like he did a million other ethnicities, got taken up by the literal Nazis in the 30s and 40s, and then became the main cause of the CIA (Operation Aerodynamic helped create many Ukrainian nationalist tropes) which was kept alive after the Cold War by neocons who had a seething rage at Russia over Stalin killing their ideological ancestor Trotsky (and the usual anti-Russian hatred most Jews have from the Tsarist days).
>>18760349>Danes never went that far north.They did lmaoCope and seethe with your made up national identity
>>18760382Who was responsible for the burgeoning nationalist movements of every single other country during the period?
>>18759981I don't think Kosovo counts it's essentially an Albanian province that Albania isn't currently trying to annex for obvious reasons.
>>18760066>um ack-shuallyNobody cares cupcake
>>18760063No more than Yanukovych being an FSB asset.
>>18762151>FSBDumb cunt.
>>18760038You should really read some actual historical texts and not listen to modern globalists who misunderstood Benedict Anderson
>>18757650>What is the history of this country?That's a SSR, no a country
>>18763095How can it be an SSR if there aren't any Soviets?
>>18763104Ukraina today has many Soviets, it has the Soviets of Jewish money laundries, the Soviet of child pronography, the Soviet of shipping children to be raped by Epstein, the Soviet of killing goyim for profts...
>>18760003>>18760014Holy shit. Are you brown? What is this level of stupidity? Fuck offHow can you claim Italy and Germany are made up/constructed nations while saying that because the US evolved from a pure masonic experiment to somewhat of a civic identity, it is an actual valid nation? Do you consider fucking Honduras more valid of a nation than France? Fuck off
>>18763104My grandma still calls herself a Soviet citizen
>>18763346I realise this is extremely offensive to Europeans as they have an unwarranted superiority complex versus Americans but you cannot fault my logic. The shorter and simpler a national narrative, the more it actually resembles reality. The longer and more grandiose a national narrative, the more it is actually full of LARP and we wuzzing.In this regard insofar as any nation is real, nowhere are they more real than in the Americas. By the same measure I would say the "realest" countries in Europe are the ones that coalesced around civic political projects that obliterated any earlier identity (like France, speaking of the civic identity of the French Republic and not romantic nationalist Gallic LARP) or that barely even really had a nation-building phase and are the fairly inevitable culminations of medieval monarchies, like the UK, Spain or Austria. But nonetheless, all of these we wuz much more than the United States
>>18763417Your argument is self defeating because the "we wuzzing" at least has historical events that it is based on. If a national narrative is short and simple, that is actually harder to verify in concrete terms. I don't see why it would resemble reality more. That's like saying Ohio would be a more real nation than America if tehy magically declared independence because they larp less as "we wuz founding fathers and shit".
>>18757650It’s basically the Texas of Europe.
>>18763431>. If a national narrative is short and simple, that is actually harder to verify in concrete terms. Except that’s the polar opposite of the truth. The closer a narrative is to the present, the easier it is to verify, and the more relevance it actually has to the nation of today. The American narrative, effectively begins in 1765, everything before that is colonial and précolombien prehistory. From 1765 to today, where exactly is the content of the American narrative that is untrue? Because it seems to me, it’s just an entirely political and civic accounting of history.This is why I say the most honest rendition of the French National narrative is the radically civic version where the France of today is a civic construction that begins with the revolution. When it requires reaching back into history to Jeanne d’Arc, Clovis and Vercingtorix it is increasingly replete with LARP.
>>18763444>1765 to today, where exactly is the content of the American narrative that is untrue? Because it seems to me, it’s just an entirely political and civic accounting of history.Yes, the American narrative serves its purpose precisely because there is substance to it, but only the bare minimum to constitute a narrative. If they didn't even talk about the war of independence and the civil war and cold war and all the rights movements, there would be nothing to base their ethos on.If you truly believed a legalistic and contractual framework was enough to found a country, then again you could take any shitty splinter post soviet republic, for example Belarus, and consider it as more real and valid than Germany. I find that it's hard to argue in favor of that conclusion.Again, you aren't taking the conclusion of your argument to its logical extreme. If you did, it would collapse.
>>18763471The logical conclusion of my argument is nationalism nihilism and that's a good thing. The national narratives that are upfront about the fact that "the nation" is truly just a civic framework and where their narrative is just the history of that framework, at the very least are not telling themselves fairy tales about what this project truly is. You keep appealing to incredulity that Germany could be anything less than the epitome of a real nation but you do not need to look far to see how much hokum there is in the traditional German nationalist narrative. In many regards the Germany that actually exists is not that different from the radically civic narrative of France, it's a modern political project specifically designed to obliterate all earlier linguistic, cultural and feudal peculiarities and dissolve a mass of people into one civic identity. No amount of Wagnerian operas can change the fact that's the actual historical function of this polity.
>>18763512Fake until you make it will not build a nation, it'll kill a people.
>>18763518Ah yes the famously violent and bloody history of American civic nationalism. Not like the very peaceful and stable history of romantic nationalism.Even Ukrainian identity is romantic as fuck, it is replete with we wuzzing about Kievan Rus, the Cossacks and racialist ideas about "Muscovites". It is not that different from the Romantic nationalist projects of the 19th century, like Germany for example
>>18763512>In many regards the Germany that actually exists is not that different from the radically civic narrative of France, it's a modern political project specifically designed to obliterate all earlier linguistic, cultural and feudal peculiarities and dissolve a mass of people into one civic identityYes, I agree that functionally it's similar. But that's because all collective identity labels, including nationality, are at least in some part construed. I was talking about the fact that, in a conventional sense, national identity has to imply some historical myths and events. Whether or not that is of any value is another question, but I was talking about what "makes a nation" in the abstract, as a definition. In the end I do agree with you that all the larping is cringe, but I think it's more indicative of what is considered to be national identity.
>>18763528Let's say Ukrainians choose the Southern route for nationalism.
>>18760063>Nonononoooooo people can't just change their governments. It's always le CIA's fault!
I'd argue the following was the ignition spark:>A loyal subject of Russia during most of his rule, Mazepa's close relationship with Tsar Peter I deteriorated as a result of the latter's administrative reforms, which increasingly deprived Mazepa and the Hetmanate of their autonomy. In 1708, Mazepa abandoned his alliance with Peter I and sided with Charles XII of Sweden after the Tsar refused to protect the Hetmanate against the advancing Swedes, instead ordering that much of Ukraine be burned to prevent the Swedes from gaining access to supplies and winter quarters.
>>18759990they really don't like it when you call them out like this
>>18763417>German-Italian Ellis Islanders who dress up as minutemen every year aren't we wuzzing compared to EuropeansAre you for real?
>>18757650Khazarian
>>18765281Yes, the 4th of the July is the day everyone dresses up as minutemen. That is what happens on that holiday, for sure
>>18760004northern*
>>18757662Ukrainians are so advanced and capable that they immediately became the poorest country in Europe post separation and the regional hub of the drug trade, prostitution, and adoption scams.
>>18763106>soviets are the capitalists actuallywow didn't know that
>>18765638Point is Americans very strongly associate themselves with the history of old stock Americans, whether they literally LARP as one or not, despite not being old stock Americans themselves.Meanwhile the history that Europeans associate themselves with is their actual history.
>>18763346but germany, italy and the us literally are made up nations, especially germany, they didn't even speak the same languagethere was no german and no italian identity before the 18th centurythe lands that comprise today's countries had 50 different people that spoke different languages
>>18764179Okay, being an Azov Fascist is justified just as long as you don’t get CIA funding… is that what you’d like me to say???
>>18763372Your grandma is Based. Respect her. Z
>>18766134Why do you fags think anybody outside Russia gives a single fuck about Ukrainians vaguely larping as Nazis, just because the Nazis were good at killing Russians? Until they start talking about gassing Jews and gays nobody in the west is even gonna pretend to care.
>>18766139Okay so you made your appreciation of FascismKnown and now I will ignore anything else you say. Join Hitler, Bandera and Tojo in Hell.
>>18766065Just wait until you find out how little of France is actually related to anyone that had anything to do with storming the Bastille
>>18766140Fascism ≠ larping as NazisThat's why nobody gives a fuck about your impotent whining.
>>18766142Ukraine is a Fascist state.
>>18766141There is hardly a single indigenous Frenchman who do not have any ancestors that fought in the Revolutionary and Napoleonic armies, try again.
>>18766142Ukraine is basically modern OUN-B while the EU is the modern German Reich. Ukraine Fascists are the useful idiots for the European ones who will attack Rossiya in the coming years same way OUN-B were just partisans the Germans used as cannon fodder when the Nazis advanced and at other times put them in camps.
>>18766148>fascism is when you are against russia
>>18766151The EU is RHEINMETALL, Boeing, Raytheon, etc corps with a state built around it.
>>18766151Unironically what they believe. Hating Russia is what makes you a fascist/Nazi. As if Europeans don't have good reason to hate being a part of the Russian hegemony and enduring generations of economic stagnation, autocracy, and ass-rape.
>>18766146This guy doesn’t know that France has been taking massive migration since the 19th century. "Actual indigenous Frenchmen" are not unlike American WASPs,
>>18766156Donetsk is a Russian state which separated and refusing them legitimacy is anti-democratic backsliding ie Fascism.
>>18766160Russians are the last people that get to wag their finger about anti-democratic processes. You fags love autocratic tyrants. It's been your entire history.
>>18766160Separatism is literally forbidden by the Russian constitution. Is Russia fascist?
>>18766168Russia has a communist party in its Duma. By definition theu cant be fascist as banning communist parties was first thing Hitler ever did when getting to power.
>>18766161You Hohols literally go “Moskals are asiatic subhumans! Slava Bandera” but then go like “were friends with the EU so we are not racist.” You won’t even have a country anymore in ten years just like Germany lost its country in 12 (1933- 45).
>>18766169If refusing to honor separatist movements is fascist then Russia is fascist too. You're all a bunch of retarded white niggers. Do not reply to me again.
>>18766172Once again, you're retarded if you think you can go on /his/ and cry about muh racism and appeal to peoples sense of moral indignation in that way. Enjoy your conscription notice, retard.
>>18766175Pro-communist separatists (Ie Donetsk - separated under Essence of Time Stalinist party) is justified while far right separatists like Banderites are not justified. Hope that clears it up. NATO is far far right wing and satanic and anything it supports is evil.
>>18766154You have completely misunderstood what corporatism means.>Corporatism is a political ideology and political system of interest representation and policymaking whereby corporate groups, such as agricultural, labour, military, business, scientific, or guild associations, come together and negotiate contracts or policy (collective bargaining) on the basis of their common interests. The term is derived from the Latin corpus, or "body".Though there are actually clear corporatist tendencies in much of the EU as it is a key component of social democracy, but social democracy and fascism greatly differ on most other topics.
>>18766176/his/ is a communist board. Communism defeated Fascism in WWII and it will again in the 2020s
>>18766177>separatism that appeals to my nationalist retardation is le good>separatism that is contrary to consolidation of Russian power and Soviet revanchism is le badIntelligent analysis
>>18766180>> but social democracy and fascism greatly differ on most other topics.The corporations in Europe need the Russian land to make Europe a self sustaining power and so they invade it for the resources. They have thst in common. On a more superficial level theu also share police brutality, anti-Russian race and culture laws (banning Orthodox Church in Ukraine), censorship of all dissent, concentration camps ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulce_Base - this is USA but EU and Ukraine are US allies) and much more.
>>18766159WASPs are a minority even among whites, indigenous Frenchmen aren't, and only whites identify strongly with the country and its history.
>>18766194Meds
>>18766207The US has a confirmed Nazi concentration camp at Dulce base… and Europe likely has several as well though I have no proof of it right now but I just assume they would have some. How many people go missing in Europe and where do they go????
>>18766209Meds
>>18766194>banning Orthodox Church in UkraineLiars burn in hell fire anon.
>>18766202This is the thing, you erroneously believe "white=indigenous Frenchman" despite the fact the country has been getting swamped with Italians, Iberians and Slavs since the 19th century. There are countries in the Americas that got less 19th and 20th century mass migration than France did. >and only whites identify strongly with the country and its history.This is another thing, and the original point "the country and its history" is itself a narrative made up by a Masonic political project, not unlike the United States, younger than the United States even. Only, the United States at least has the honesty to require a veneer of we wuz Vercingetorix n shieet on top of their civic legalistic project.
>>18766219Proof-https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Dulce_base
>>18766240>Dulce base is a supposedly super secret underground base near the town of Dulce, New Mexico where aliens hang out and conspire to subjugate the human race. Meds
Proof of an Auschwitz style death camp ran inside the USA by aliens and their human cohorts
>>18766233>the country has been getting swamped with Italians, Iberians and SlavsI know, I am not disputing that. But they do not outnumber the indigenous Frenchmen.>More people want to live in France than in Guatemala, Haiti and BoliviaNo shit, but we're comparing France and the US here.>the original point "the country and its history" is itself a narrative made up by a Masonic political projectPartially I guess, but not entirely.
>>18766248And yet whether or not they’re an "indigenous Frenchmen" (a modern nationality identity that dissolved the multitudes of medieval cultures), that has nothing to do with whether or not they celebrate Bastille day (everyone does). How exactly it’s any different from the 4th of July, has yet to be explained
>>18766243>Auschwitz camp is ‘supposedly’ a camp where the government kills people and experiments on them >>thst is believable but the US gov working with aliens to also do exactly that is INSANR because aliens cant be real and the US is pure goodYou already live in 1930s GERMANY and are too stupid to see it.
>>18766253I am actually of the opinion that de Benoist was right. Nationalism, especially French nationalism, was a mistake and Europe should ideally be a confederation of smaller regions each with their own identity and culture.However, our nations, even France, are still far less artificial than the US. Again, most white Frenchmen descend from the people who lived through the their revolution, most white Americans do not.
>>18766278Problem is it would still ultimately just be nationalism. Nationalism is just the byproduct of modern states with mass communication, transit and ostensibly democratic mandates. You see this in Africa, where the state is basically just a bureaucratic apparatus that exists on top of a disparate mass of premodern cultures, yet the state itself still functions as a solvent that slowly dissolves these cultures into a more homogenised mass that identifies only with the state itself.In the case of America, I say America is an example of an honest nation because America is up front about the fact that it is purely a civic political project, and the narrative of America is just the history of that project. There is no illusion that it is anything but political, there is no reaching back into any mythic history, the narrative begins on day 1 of the state's existence and that is sufficient. If you ask a German nationalist, the narrative does not begin in 1871, the narrative does not even begin with Bismarck's chancellorship, the narrative begins when Romans first encountered Teutons - despite the fact that Arminius or whatever has absolutely fuck all to do with the modern state of Germany. These grand romantic narratives, are fluff, and the whole discussion around Ukraine exposes this.
>>18766302>Problem is it would still ultimately just be nationalism.If you don't know what nationalism means, yes.The old monarchies of Europe were not nation states, they were collections of regions and towns that all had their own traditions, laws, culture, dialect, institutions, and identity, united solely through their shared king.>There is no illusion that it is anything but politicalNot if you ask American nationalists.>If you ask a German nationalist, the narrative does not begin in 1871, the narrative does not even begin with Bismarck's chancellorshipBecause it didn't. Before Bismarck there was the German Confederation, and before the German Confederation there was the HRE. Going all the way back to Arminius is a stretch for sure, but he and his men are still the ancestors of modern Germans so it is not unfounded.>the whole discussion around Ukraine exposes this.How so?
>>18766338I realise that, this is the purpose of Africa as an example. In post-colonial African countries you can see the same phenomenon happening today as happened to European nation states in the 19th century, just without the romantic nationalist aesthetics. Modern states and modern economies naturally flatten disparate regional identities through the mass movement of people and the creation of a bureaucratic class for the state, and for the business class outside of it. In the Congo you have a multitude of various peoples with their own languages and traditions, yet the mere fact of existing in a modern state with a modern economy flattens all of that as urbanisation and education dissolves them all into Francophone "Congolese", which is also a barrier to upward advancement. There is no reality in which you could just indefinitely maintain medieval provincialism forever, even with globalisation the most advanced nation states can barely sustain their identity now > Not if you ask American nationalists.American nationalists don’t even call themselves nationalists, they call themselves patriots, and their idea of nationalism has nothing to do with the idea of an American Volk and everything to do with fidelity to the ideals of the constitution, it is inherently civic. At best you have white nationalists, but even this kind of racial consciousness is supranational rather than nationalist, as it transcends this culture or that culture and focuses squarely on being white. A constitutionally white nationalist country would be a form of civic nationalism, as it would exclude mixed people but extend to white migrants. > How so?Because the basic question is this, how is a Ukrainian not a Russian? And the answer is because the state made it so.
>>18766431>how is a Ukrainian not a RussianDifferent language Different cultureDifferent history Will to be independent There's more than enough things my little zigger
>>18760063>popular mass protests of hundreds of thousands of people all over the country that went on for multiple months>Yanukovich literally just runs away to Russia (no coup) despite the US (muh Nuland phone call) clearly pushing for a joint government with opposition, keeping Yanukovich as president.But yeah totally da ebil CIA brainwashed everyone for reasons
>>18766463>Different languageThis is the thing, way back in Russian Empire times, before any of these borders existed, there was a multitude of various unintelligible East Slavic dialects. Yet only 2 of them had a state created around them.>Different culture>Different historyUh huh
>>18766514>during Russian empire timesYeah yeah here we go again. As I said here >>18760000 , that's literally all you shills can do, wewuzzing using an arbitrary point of time.
>>18766431>There is no reality in which you could just indefinitely maintain medieval provincialism foreverYes there is. Despite the Schengen agreement the overwhelming majority of Europeans stay in their country of birth, even if they're progressive internationalist faggots, as not knowing the language and lacking citizenship are both massive disincentives, while lacking the huge economic incentive that thirdies have.This does not actually differ from how it was historically when e.g. a Parisian moved to Marseilles.>their idea of nationalism has nothing to do with the idea of an American Volk and everything to do with fidelity to the ideals of the constitutionSo why do they want to abolish birthright citizenship?>even this kind of racial consciousness is supranational rather than nationalist, as it transcends this culture or that culture and focuses squarely on being whiteNo, it is a strictly white American movement.>>18766514But back in Tsarist times the idea of a distinct Ukraine and Belarus still existed, and to an extent it was even endorsed by the state as part of a Triune nation of Little(Ukraine), White(Belarus), and Greater Russia.
>>18766431Russians are fenno ugrians who got raped and slavicized they are mutts with chinky eyes
>>18766524>Yes there is. Despite the Schengen agreement the overwhelming majority of Europeans stay in their country of birth, even if they're progressive internationalist faggots, as not knowing the language and lacking citizenship are both massive disincentives, while lacking the huge economic incentive that thirdies have.This does not actually differ from how it was historically when e.g. a Parisian moved to Marseilles.And yet, all of you increasingly think, speak and behave like Americans anyway. So, if in the 21st century you have a scenario where 19th century nation states are being eroded by global homogenisation, how the fuck were medieval provinces ever going to maintain their culture forever? >So why do they want to abolish birthright citizenship?You see, this is a very typically European moment, as Europeans typically get all their info about America from hyperbolised Democrat talking points. There is no significant movement to abolish birthright citizenship, what exists is a movement to no longer extend it to illegal aliens.
>>18766521Thing is, I'm not even saying Ukraine is made-up (any more than any other country is), I'm saying the only reason there aren't more unintelligible East Slavic languages is because two of them, the two closest to the west, had a nationalist movement significant enough to be enshrined as nations, while for the rest of them the Soviets just classified them as being an illiterate Russian and taught them to speak like how they do in Moscow. It's not all that different from what France did.
>>18766542>And yet, all of you increasingly think, speak and behave like Americans anyway.Far less than you'd like to think, Americanization will never come close to completion.There was also nothing inevitable about US cultural domination. In an ideal world a pidgin language or a conlang would have been the international lingua franca, which was also very plausible given how multipolar the world was before the world wars.>what exists is a movement to no longer extend it to illegal aliens.The recent attempts to abolish it included people with legal visas.
>>18766550>I'm saying the only reason there aren't more unintelligible East Slavic languages is because two of them, the two closest to the west, had a nationalist movement significant enough to be enshrined as nationsThis literally applies to every single location on earth ever, is this some foundational revelation to you?
>>18766574On the contrary the internet has supercharged Americanisation to frankly absurd levels. I have a feeling in any other context even you would acknowledge, and complain, about this phenomenon. Somehow, I doubt using Esperanto and trying to sustain medieval provincialism forever was ever going to be a viable alternative to national, and eventually global, homogenisation. >The recent attempts to abolish it included people with legal visas.If you're talking about Trump's executive order it included certain classes of temporary visas, it was by no means "abolishing birthright citizenship"
>>18766581>Make argument that nations are universally constructed by the state>"This literally applies to every single location on earth ever,"Do you know what "Universal" means?
>>18766605>nations are universally constructed by the stateNo, that wasn't your argument you literally said the opposite, namely that nations are construed in opposition to a previous state.
>>18766616When the fuck did I say that?
>>18766550The original East Slavic sprachraum, which is actually even smaller than this map, excluded the vast majority of modern Russia, and language divergence takes time. And you also have to take into account that the entire Slavic language group is quite young compared to other European groups.The only East Slavic dialect that is commonly called its own language is actually "Ukrainian", i.e. Rusyn spoken in the Carpathians. They have historically sort of had their own nationalist movement which may have tilted things. However, there are plenty of Romance and Germanic "dialects" that are classified as languages by linguists without having any nationalist or even regionalist movement so I would not be so sure that there were some hidden Russian ones.
>>18766633>it's just a dialect broT. Speaks neither Ukrainian nor Russian
>>18766635So?
>>18766677So you have no actual knowledge how close the two languages are Hint: they aren't that close
>>18766601>I have a feeling in any other context even you would acknowledge, and complain, about this phenomenonI do acknowledge and complain about it, I just don't consider it an existential threat. True global homogenization would basically need teleportation to happen.>Somehow, I doubt using Esperanto and trying to sustain medieval provincialism forever was ever going to be a viable alternativeEsperanto is a baby-tier language, like English, but unlike most other languages. Without Anglophone domination it easily could have been the natural choice.I will admit that eternal medieval provincialism was far less realistic, but not unfeasible.>it was by no means "abolishing birthright citizenship"The definition of birthright citizenship is that if you're born there you automatically become a citizen no matter what.
>>18766684Speakers often think minor differences or basic similarities is enough to make or break a related language as they are as oblivious to how other languages differ as we are to theirs.You basically have to be a polyglot to give it a fair assessment.
>>18766721Until very recently there was already a competing lingua Franca to English, and it was not Esperanto, it was Russian. Even French as a lingua Franca didn’t end so much as it was increasingly limited in scope to just the former French empire. Esperanto never achieved the success of either of these, the global language was always going to be the economically strongest one. > The definition of birthright citizenship is that if you're born there you automatically become a citizen no matter what.Birthright citizenship is a colloquialism for jus soli which is where citizenship is acquired by being born there rather than by blood. Exactly what perimeters jus soli legally entails are subject to jurisdiction
>>18759408>Ukrainian identity is a fabrication.No shit, retard. Every national identity is "fabricated". Not a single country, nationality, or identity just fell from the fucking sky.
>>18766729I am a polyglot so I can give it a fair assessment. >>18767164>russian>lingua Franca Lmao
>>18767267Russian was always the English of the eastern bloc. As far as counterfactual failed contenders to an alternative global lingua Franca go, Esperanto does not even enter the discussion
>>18767277Neither does Russian. We only had two objective lingua Francas, French (hence the name), and English. Every other language was just "empire exerting its influence on vassals"
>>18757650BRC BCC BLC BPC BGC BMC rape
>>18757650Basically the real russians (kievan rus), today "russians" are turko-mongol-uralic mutts
>>18767428You say this but looking at history Ukraine was Turkic rape ground zero
>>18767164>>18767327Actually Lingua franca is not at all refering to French, it is refering to a mediterranean pidgin language primarily based on mediterranean Romance varieties, but with influence from all over the region. Mind you that Greeks and Arabs refered to all Westerners as Franks in medieval times.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Lingua_FrancaAnd pidgin languages was historically always the natural form of communication internationally. The use of French was mostly limited to the highly educated, as was Latin before it. English, however, just so happens to be the most pidgin-like major European language, with a simple grammar and a mixed Germanic-Romance vocabulary.
>>18767164>competing lingua Franca to English>Russianlol. lmao.
