>you arrive in Italy for the first time, never having visited the country before>some arsehole struts up to you and aggressively asks "Guelph or Ghibelline???"how do you respond?
>Uh, I'm not really political.>Uh oh, found the Guelph!>I-I really am not into politics.>That's precisely what a Guelph would say! You ARE political because existing in society makes you political! Pretending otherwise is a political stance!>Shut the fuck up you insufferable libtard, I hope the Guelphs rape you to death.
>>18753387>Bow to some foreign Kraut or to some high priest wandering about the ruins of RomeNeither. Real Italians would follow the step of Arduin of Ivrea and rebuild a indipendent Kingdom of Italy
>>18753387Huh? They local? I'll have uno beero, thanks mate, whichever is good.
>>18753391>Bow to some foreign Kraut or to some high priest wandering about the ruins of Rome>Proceeds to hype up some germoid duke
>>18753451Commendatori!
>>18753391>Kingdomgrossthis is a Republican board
>>18753463>Family living in Italy and mixing with locals for like 200 years before he was even born>Kraut>>18753487Go away Mazzini
>>18753451>t. John Hawkwood
>>18753487Christ is King
Which side are you on boys...
>>18753387Everyone arriving in Italy for the first time will experience the Paris syndrome and will be unable to respond to any question.
>>18753387GUELPH
Ghibbelines were Italians who were inexplicably pro-HRE, we italian-americans still call a stubborn opponent a ghibbeline
>>18753387For the Emperor!>>18753539It took my way too long to get the Ghibellina -> Waiblingen connection.
guelphs
>>18753391Wasn’t Frederick II more Italian than he was German?
>>18753387I imagine that if I actually lived and grew up there one of the gangs associated with either one of the factions would've already slaughtered my parents and made the choice easy but without that bias guelph because the Papal State was an actual Italian state instead of a domineering neighboring empire larping as my ancestors.
The Ghibellines were racial traitors who tried to betray Italia, just like anyone who sided with Ostrogoths against the Byzantine Army. Thankfully the krautoid Manfred was slain in the Battle of Benevento.
>>18754231Jests aside, this sentiment is a perfect example of how the Pagan doctrine of Nationalism is actually a betrayal of Race. The Ghibellines fought not just for italy, but *all* Christendom. By neutering the Emperors, the Papacy undermined itself and Christendom as a whole in the long run. The dream of Empire was killed for a fantasy of Hierocracy...
Ghibeline By the emperor
>>18754015Yea but him and Otto III were special cases of HRE Emperors that actually wanted to do a serious proper Roman Empire LARP and rule their Empire from Italy, minting roman-like coins and such. All the others were pure krauts ruling Italy from Germany like some colony
>>18754231Implying Guelfs didnt eventually developed into the faction submitted to the French "people"
>>18754015He was as Italian as the Lombard princesses his de Hauteville ancestors married were. The father's side he was all German.
Guelphs built Florence, the greatest Republic in Italiawhat do the Ghibellines have next to that? 300 years of sucking german cock??
>>18754563Ghibellines ruled Milan since the Visconti takeover in the late '200s (ironically given Milan was always the strongest Guelph city in the north) and mogged Florence until the late '400, with the Milanese dialect being together with the Florentine one the biggest contender to become the "supreme" form of Italian. it wasnt as praised as Florence by later nationalists wankery because they were for centuries a spanish-austrian colony and not a indipendent city-state. Florence and Florentine becoming the nucles of the later italian identity was also caused by the premature fall of their biggest competitors
>>18753530>INR...I
>>18754363>serious proper Roman Empire LARP>krauts ruling Italy from Germany like some colonyBased and based. Make Europe Kraut-Rome again.
>>18753509>mixing with localsIf you actually look at any of these early medieval genealogies they all just married among themselves and other germanic noble/ruling families. Marrying locals outright was actually quite rare. That isn’t to say there was no admixture. But I wouldn't call him an ethnic italic either, definitely still closer to a kraut than a roman.
>>18754598>HistoriletFrederick Ii notorious considered himself more sicilian (mother side) than kraut. He ruled everything from his beloved capital of Palermo and indeed his power and popularity on Germany proper was limited
>>18755191Also Otto II tried to changed the capital of the Empire to Rome, but died far too young after few years of reign
>>18755191>>18755194nevermind i was half drunk and didnt understood >>18754598 was agreeing with me.
>>18754581sounds like a lot of cope from a dialect that did not become the official national language of the Kingdom of Italy when it was established in 1861Guelphs > GhibellinesFlorence > MilanMedici chads > Sforzacelssimple as
>>18755199Make anon sober again!
>>18754598Make Germany Turkey-Syria. That would be really based, and it's actually happening. Amazing.
>>18754231Totila should have genocided all the shitalian traitors
>>18755327the only ones who got genocided were the Goths by the Eastern Romans
>>18755333The sack of Mediolanum ensured that North Italians didn't look Shitians and other Terroni
>>18755191Why was Sicily seemingly so culturally attractive until the 13th century and then becoming a backwater by the 15th century?
>>18755318You can go home anytime you like.That might not always be the case.Just saying.
>>18755338North Italians are more Near Eastern than they are Celtic and Germanic. You lost.
>>18755362false
>>18754382Frederick II was raised in Sicily and was culturally Italian, he disliked having to leave sunny Palmero and having to visit Germany
>>18755347Because for the Norman rulers (& then Frederick II), Sicily was the centerpiece of a kingdom. Later rulers controlled Sicily but viewed it as a secondary state whose only purpose was to feed money and power to their primary state (be it HRE, Charles of Anjou, Aragon, Spain etc.)
>>18756561>he disliked having to leave sunny Palmero and having to visit Germanycan you blame him?
Reminder that the Donation of Constantine was a forgery, the Papal States became a secular territorial state thanks to a deceptive letter
>>18756584Nope, can't fault him. No wonder the STVPOR MVNDI had a harem
>>18753387Whichever side Dante is with.
>>18753980>inexplicablyNothing inexplicable about it, both the pope (through episcopal captaincies) and the emperor (through vicarships) were useful ways to legitimize coups within cities, so whenever factions emerged they sought out external support to win.
>>18755347After Frederick's dynasty lost the oower struggle the Pope offered the crown of Sicily to a French prince, that choose to move the capital from Palermo to Naples. This change lasted until the italian unificationSicilian NEVER liked this decision, and passed six centuries having indipendentist chimpouts every 20-25 years. The instability and isolation eventually caused a strong decadence
>>18756615He was a moderare Guelf, as the faction in Florence was divided in two sub-factions. He was more of a "i want cities to have autonomies" Guelf, rather than "I workship the Pope and he should rule us" Guelf. The second sub-faction won eventually in Florence and forced Dante to fleed in exile
>>18753387>GuelphChurch autonomy was the original separation of powers and contributed enormously to Europe not being a despotic hellscape like the rest of the world.
>>18756821By Sicily I meant southern Italy as a whole
>>18756862They got stuck into the byzantine social system, so they basically became a catholic offshot of Eastern Europe in later ages. The Mediterranean becoming a minor trade ruote after the discovery of America didnt help either
>>18756845You mean a unified culture resistant to foreign subversion?Yeah thank hashem that the god of the j*ws saved us from that horrible fate.
>I will submit to whichever foreign power allows me to better slaughter and pillage the town down the road
>>18753387Guelph, as the merlons on the tower in the background tell me. In the unlikely case he's in fact a Ghibelline, true warriors of the Pope will surely aid me in the ensuing sword fight
>>18753387Did common people actually care about this struggle?
>>18753530The Communes were peak christian politicssee: Albertano de Brescia
>>18756845The Church being a state power and requiring huge indulgences to maintain their state, armies and influence lead to more corruption, and thus the Reformation
>>18753387The Guelph's cause seems kinda pointless in hindsight desu. The HRE was already a decentralized mess and will become even more decentralized in the future so there was no point in trying to fight for autonomy. The pope also submitted to the HRE emperors after the Sack of Rome so there was no point in doing it for the pope.Ghibelline also have the moral high ground for being humble and loyal Germanic princes while the Guelphs are corrupt, luxurious and arrogant Italians and papists. The Latin vice would directly cause the Reformation later on.
>>18753387>Sars I am from [Far away but still putatively Christian country], I do not know what that is>>18757102Yeah.Like with all long running civil conflicts, people quickly take the opportunity to settle some old scores, solve local grievances, etc with the wider conflict as an excuse. But it was definitely something that transcended high-minded political machinations. Though like in day to day life that tended to manifest in raids, stealing, blood feuds, your cousin being found dead in an alley, etc.>>18757447>The Guelph cause was pointless because they won
>uhhhh I'm with Caesar, down with the Optimates!What would they answer?
>>18755370Meanwhile at Salvini.
>>18757498They either wouldn't get it or assume you are a Ghibeline because among other things the emperor of the HRE is a Caesar.From then it's a cointoss.
>>18757498Cesare Borgia? You corrupt Papal bitch!
>>18753935I dunno, I spent like a week living in a working class neighbourhood in Rome and it didn't sour my opinion of the city. Sure there were jeets and shit but that's just how it is these days in large cities.
>>18757486>they wonItaly would have had more autonomy as part of the HRE than it did outside of it.In hindsight, resisting the emperor only allowed much more predatory powers to swoop in.
>>18754288The browns who occupy this board cant comprehend your post, but youre right
Definately a Guelph
>>18759952This. Niggas think the HRE was some sort of centralized german nation state, and not a confederation of thousands of small polities with dozens of different ethnicities within it.
For me, it's the Folvilles and Coterelshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folville_ganghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coterel_gang
>>18753387> The Venetian Republic ought to form an army from the citizens of the Republic instead of hiring Mercenaries is the claim that I would create
